EPT[G] Hyper-Aggressive ZvT: Countering the 2Rax (GM) - Page 6
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On October 11 2011 05:38 sick_transit wrote: I thought punishment would be meted out to people who bash or otherwise fail to be respectful of blue posters such as KawaiiRice--as has occured numerous times in this thread. Thoughtful disagreement is always welcome in the forums but we are lucky when we have the participation of high-level players like KR and Pokebunny. Going ad hominem against them ("you haven't won MLGs" "you're semi-pro") is facepalm stupid. I wish the mods would intervene here for the sake of the strat forum. All hail the semi-pros right buddy? You must be young to hero worship every person who is pretty good at the game. Those two opened up by showing everyone that they are not respectful, thus everyone bashing them is perfectly within their rights. There is no bow to blue posters infinite wisdom rule. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On October 11 2011 05:06 ThomasHobbes wrote: I find that this is only effective when the Terran decides to pursue aggression despite scouting your 14/14. If I kill 2-3 marines and 2-3 scvs (which you brought out to create a contain), I find that the odds of a successful bust go up exponentially. If he doesn't press forward with the 2-rax after scouting the 14/14, there is no reason to conduct a baneling bust, and that's (I believe) the point of this guide and thread. Exactly. It's possible to still bust if he isn't aggressive, but it would rely on a lucky timing when he's moving down his ramp and just starting bunkers at his expo. Very risky and poor play to do blind cheese or not have a reason to cheese/all-in. It's much better to do this type of build as a response to scouting or, like you mention, after successfully thwarting the terran aggression/contain. | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
On October 11 2011 05:45 statikg wrote: All hail the semi-pros right buddy? You must be young to hero worship every person who is pretty good at the game. Those two opened up by showing everyone that they are not respectful, thus everyone bashing them is perfectly within their rights. There is no bow to blue posters infinite wisdom rule. I hardly see how someone writing a thinly veiled advertisement with a strategy that relies on your opponent being stupid and not scouting deserves the respect of other posters, let alone those with a clue about playing the game. Blue posters may not have infinite wisdom and their tone may not have been exactly appropriate, but they're right. This isn't a "counter to 2rax". It's not "ZvT Hyper-aggression" either. It's a baneling bust. Baneling busts only work if your opponent makes a mistake (1 base, especially) that a silver leaguer can avoid. 2 base eco baneling busts are much stronger with much more room for error. All a Terran has to do to stop this is send a single uncontested SCV to check your natural. He then throws up bunkers, regardless of whether or not you've gone roach or baneling, expands in his main, and proceeds to win the game. My Terran is awful, but I could stop this dead simply by double-padding my wall-in (which can be done reactively to scouting banelings coming into your natural). 1 Base Baneling Busts are only good when scouting can be denied 100% and that simply does not happen unless your opponent decides scouting is for squares. The blue posters are right. This strategy can work, but it's not what I'd call "viable" for ladder or tournament play. EDIT: On October 11 2011 06:12 TangSC wrote: Exactly. It's possible to still bust if he isn't aggressive, but it would rely on a lucky timing when he's moving down his ramp and just starting bunkers at his expo. Very risky and poor play to do blind cheese or not have a reason to cheese/all-in. It's much better to do this type of build as a response to scouting or, like you mention, after successfully thwarting the terran aggression/contain. Just to address this, being aggressive against 14/14 is a huge mistake. You can do enough damage to be put very far in the lead by surrounding and killing his initial Marines and SCVs with regular Zerglings, regardless of whether or not you go for a Baneling oriented strategy. The only response to scouting that you'll have beyond fighting off an initial (doomed for failure) bunker rush is scouting something silly like a 3x supply depot wall. Some walls beg being baneling busted, but it's not a good opening strategy. Executing the same bust off of a 15 hatch into low econ 2 base play is going to be more effective and isn't completely all-in like this. "Hey banelings kill buildings" does not a strategy forum thread make. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
On October 11 2011 05:45 statikg wrote: You must be young... Ad hominem: last refuge of the ignorant. There's a reason I don't read many threads on this forum any more. | ||
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TheHippo
United States1 Post
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 11 2011 05:45 statikg wrote: All hail the semi-pros right buddy? You must be young to hero worship every person who is pretty good at the game. Those two opened up by showing everyone that they are not respectful, thus everyone bashing them is perfectly within their rights. There is no bow to blue posters infinite wisdom rule. not to mention its 2 terran players tying to defend their own race. | ||
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madestro
Costa Rica108 Posts
On October 10 2011 03:07 Cryptos wrote: Oh yeah sure, like zerg need any help against terran i mean seriously, oh im zerg and I can make 90 drones off 4bases in 10 minutes and be just fine then make 80 ultras and then 80 broodlords then slings then infestors for a auto-win every time, how logical eh User was banned for this post. Oh look I'm terran and all I need to win against zerg are marines and hellions, then I can win in 6 minutes or less and all I had to do was get 100 gas since everything else only costs minerlas and my mules take care of that and they don't even cost supply !!! yey !!! | ||
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madestro
Costa Rica108 Posts
15 hatch 14 pool 14 gas if you scout 2rax pressure make 2 lings to deny scouting, skip the queen and make a roach warren, get 2 overlords and as soon as warren pops make roaches (skipping ling speed as well). As soon as you stop the 2rax go attack the terran's wall while you get double queens and drones at home, get 100 gas and rest mins until 2 base saturation. You can get I believe like 10 or 11 roaches and sometimes terran just doesn't have enough to stop you from destroying the depot and getting in his base, if he was going 2rax into hellions this shuts it down quite nice as well and all the while your droning like crazy at home to go a standard macro game. Anyone here has tried that build against 2rax ?? I won't give my experiences with 2rax cause I'm just gold so it's clear my opponents and I don't execute anything well. | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote: who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Wow.... do you even follow the scene?? We should be grateful that KR is posting here, as he is a well-known player. And your first statement is the dumbest thing I've read all week. | ||
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 11 2011 09:19 SoKHo wrote: Wow.... do you even follow the scene?? We should be grateful that KR is posting here, as he is a well-known player. And your first statement is the dumbest thing I've read all week. he doesn't make a living off of playing starcraft 2, thus not a pro gamer in my eyes. just because you finished 3rd in a decently high end tournament does not instantly make you a pro gamer. semi pro at best. | ||
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SaikOuLighT
Canada742 Posts
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 11 2011 09:47 ariK wrote: I don't get what the point of this entire guide is, because like others have said you can just sum up the whole thing as: 1 base baneling bust vs 2rax and hope they don't scout it i think the point of this thread is to let zerg players know that you actually NEED to REACT to what the other players are doing, not just hold of the silly cheesey double/triple bunker at the start and to try expanding behind it? you'd have to be an absolute idiot to think you could come back in that game after having you expand delayed that much. short story, zerg reacts. in this case it was the right reaction. | ||
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MageWarden
United States95 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. A related rant against any elitist pro-gamers who've ever trashed anyone because, "they know better". + Show Spoiler + (Personally, I wish you all the best, but I think I made a wiser decision to focus on my own future by getting a tangible degree capable of a high probability of landing a decent job, and I seriously hope you all had a backup plan other than, "live in my mom's basement till I get pro". Also, I hate the logical mistakes you guys tend to make, but defend it by, "but I'm pro, so I know what I',m talking about". Perhaps you are good at what you do, but that doesn't make you intelligent and incapable of logical fallacies.) Anti-Tang: Yes, this is "shameless" promoting of his site (but that's not to say the rest of the content is simply "fluff"). I wish Tang had a followup as to what to do if they're not 2raxxing, such that you can salvage the foregone fast expand. The title and idea of a guide is a bit over the top, perhaps a better idea would be to deliver this as a response to a 2rax (which indeed, is very common in the current metagame, at all league levels), to which some additional non-2rax conditions are discussed, and I really don't like the idea of speedling expand versus terran, if it turns out I have nothing to fear... I hate, hate, hate, hate, spoilered guides. Learn how to make a guide usingthe BBCode, for Pete's sake! (Here is an example of a well designed guide, using BBCode, and the fact that DuncanIdaho is the author is completely consequential) Notice the anchors and the table of contents: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253647 Pro-Tang: First, this is NOT a 1-base baneling burst build, it appears to be a "what to do if you scout a 2rax" build. There is a HUGE difference there. This is not cheese, it's "Oh, he's cheesing me, time to crush it in its tracks, hopefully teaching them a lesson to not do this, thus changing the metagame so I don't see this bullshit so much anymore." Honestly, it seems to me, again as a platinum player, that if you do something all-in, there should be a weakness to be exploited, and it makes sense that if you catch wind of an incoming all-in, there should be a way to exploit it such that they lose (What do I know, but apparently the only way to beat Terran is to play standard, while they cheese their little hearts out with wild abandon, and if Zergs try to cheese a cheeser, they deserve to lose? There's either an imbalance there, or there is something Zergs can do, with reasonable reliability, and I personally refuse to believe the game isn't balanced, unless Kawaii, PokeBunny, et al. do?  ). Perhaps this build by Tang works in response to a scouted 2rax, perhaps not, but to be so negative and offer no other alternatives other than, (paraphrased) "Oh, Terran has the RIGHT to cheese you, but you Zergs, no. You must play standard no matter what, anything else anyone tries to tell you is bullshit." Perhaps Tang should explain more, and have some more replays, but this seems reasonable as a response, given that the bling burst attempt, at worst, doesn't make you insta-lose, but rather maybe slightly behind, though I'm interested, but not quite sold... ~DuncanIdaho Hmmm i wouldnt talk about shameless promotion with a post like that On topic: I feel that this is a end the game scenario instead of getting further ahead. However ur gonna be in a pinch if they scout and react well. They already have 2 raxes as part of their wall with a 12/14 or even an 11/11 and it doesnt take as much to secure it more from a bust | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. This is like me lecturing you about statistics. You'll probably think, this undergrad student is totally wrong and he doesn't even know he's wrong. Moral of the story? Respect the people who are on the top of their fields. Anyways this build doesn't even counter 2 rax. 2 rax is one of the best builds you can do vs a baneling bust. | ||
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TheLastGoose
Canada44 Posts
On October 11 2011 10:07 T.O.P. wrote: This is like me lecturing you about statistics. You'll probably think, this undergrad student is totally wrong and he doesn't even know he's wrong. Moral of the story? Respect the people who are on the top of their fields. Anyways this build doesn't even counter 2 rax. 2 rax is one of the best builds you can do vs a baneling bust. i reallllllllllly hope you don't think KR or PokeBunny are at the top of their fields... | ||
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HeavenS
Colombia2259 Posts
that being said, tang, if you truly want to help the community, write some sort of strategy guide which is much more in depth than this one, one could easily find better ones with a quick search, and it will be greatly appreciated. more replays would help too ^^ | ||
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
On October 11 2011 10:51 HeavenS wrote: lol theres so many haters here. how many crappy strat threads are there? a ton. ...Exactly. Teaching those who don't know how to write a decent strat thread, but (hopefully) have the game knowledge to actually write a useful one, to do so, is good. Thinking "well he formatted it in an understandable way, even if it's useless" and leaving it at that just adds another shitty strat thread to the forum. As it is, I think I've seen maybe 3-4 useful posts in this forum EVER as a zerg player. Considering how many threads there are, that's a painfully sad thought. On October 11 2011 10:26 TheLastGoose wrote: i reallllllllllly hope you don't think KR or PokeBunny are at the top of their fields... They're probably the equivalent of someone with a masters degree. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On October 10 2011 10:45 Emperor_Earth wrote: I have one useful tidbit besides the fact that I agree with the attitude but not the specific content of your post, Duncan. For all you Zergs out there that aspire to abuse the Terran thin walls... aim for the middle barracks ffs! The splash radius of the bling is enough to take out BOTH depots. This was a "very" old lesson from beta that somehow got forgotten as we stopped 1basing each other to death. In fact, bling busting was sooo prevalent back in beta that there was a whole period when people only thickwalled TvZ. The reason this is bad is because, say you make 6 banelings, you can't just click a depot then shift click the area where a few marines or scvs might be clumped up. And if you only put 5 on the barracks for the two depots and one dies, you don't kill either one. If the wall is completely undefended sure, but it's not something you should plan to do blindly, only if the opportunity arises. On topic though, I completely agree with what pretty much everyone else has said so far, especially royalflush. This build isn't even really useful to anyone. It's not anything new at all....players in high master/gm won't have any use for it because they can actually play macro games and defend 2rax... and lower players won't benefit from this because it's gimmicky and won't improve their actual play. The entire point of a baneling bust is to catch your opponent off guard if he's teching up. When he has 2 barracks pumping marines, what's the point in busting his wall? He shouldn't be skimping on army if he's going for an expand, and there's no way to tell if he's teching up or playing it safely because he can just hide marines. No conscious terran at your level should ever lose to this, and just because they are losing doesn't mean it's a good build that people should follow. You could 6 pool a lot of terrans in GM and win because many will frequently open up with refinery before rax and reactor before marine, which is 100% autoloss to 6 pool. Does that mean 6 pool is a legit counter to fast reactor hellion openings? I just don't understand why you make these guides at all. You put a decent amount of effort into them, but it seems like it's just a veil for you to make money off coaching low level players by touting the GM rank you never even earned yourself, and only cheese to maintain due to the mechanic of the GM ladder system. All you're doing is hurting people who want to get better and come to this forum for tactical advice, and drawing the ire of better players who don't want to see that happen. It's not fair to the bad players either who don't know any better and will say "hmm, you're GM, that means this must be an awesome build" and will spend time learning and perfecting this build that as most of the posters in this thread have already said, isn't very good. On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote: Okay, so despite all the flaming, I have to throw in my point of view, as a low-level platinum player, yet despite my mechanics, I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. So no, I'm not a GM, but that doesn't mean I'm beneath you all nor that I have no brains. Being intelligent isn't a necessary condition for being knowledgable at starcraft, or being a member of Mensa, or even being in graduate school studying statistics. Math ability is largely a function of time, mensa is a function of time spent on gimmicky puzzles and willingness to shell out $50/year for a badge, but more importantly starcraft itself is also largely a function of time spent practicing. The other major factor of course is the actual game knowledge. (I studied applied statistics in graduate school before moving to korea last year and also would consider myself a fairly intelligent person.) One of the primary reasons people are instantly critical of Tang is because he routinely does this kind of stuff for self-promotion. But another reason is because these guides all lack in quality. This isn't innovative at all and is easily stopped with basic awareness. What Tang as a person really has going for him is that he's charismatic and a pretty good writer. He's good at crafting a narrative he likes, and an intelligent (but unknowledgable) player will pick up on that and think "hey I should try this out" and get suckered into thinking this is some high level strategy that simply isn't at all. | ||
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ChineseWife
United States373 Posts
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