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On October 12 2011 04:36 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:31 Numy wrote:
I'm confused, this is just a basic 1 base baneling all in. It's been around since beta when dimaga won a whole tournament just doing this. I don't really see how an all in is an effective counter to a standard terran opening. I think there doesn't exist hard counters to standard builds. What I meant was dealing with 2rax by counter attacking, not that the build is a guaranteed 100% counter to the 2rax that'll win every time. The thread title has letter limits.
ur better off defending ur natural from the 2 rax then baneling busting off of 2 base after the 2 raxs FAILS rather then just going straight banelings off of 1 base.....
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The time the decision for 1 base baneling is made is essentially when you don't take drones off of gas after getting speed. This is easily scouted by an SCV because there are no lings on the field yet, and even after lings are on the field it is very hard to deny the scouting of the lack of the expansion, especially on a map with an open natural like Xel naga caverns. This bust is ridiculous and will only work against players that have little experience against it. This guide is ridiculous because it is common knowledge and Tang is trying to take credit for it.
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will this work if you went pool first? i think gas first is absolutely worthless in all situations except for zvz.
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On October 12 2011 05:48 Tal0n wrote:
will this work if you went pool first? i think gas first is absolutely worthless in all situations except for zvz.
ya, until you face someone with hella marine micro and all you have are slow lings :S
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On October 12 2011 05:34 Carmine wrote:
The time the decision for 1 base baneling is made is essentially when you don't take drones off of gas after getting speed. This is easily scouted by an SCV because there are no lings on the field yet, and even after lings are on the field it is very hard to deny the scouting of the lack of the expansion, especially on a map with an open natural like Xel naga caverns. This bust is ridiculous and will only work against players that have little experience against it. This guide is ridiculous because it is common knowledge and Tang is trying to take credit for it.
double post, i know.
but did you guys know, if you HOLD DOWN A KEY WHILE BUILDING UNITS IT WILL QUE ALL THE LARVAS INTO THAT UNIT.
taking credit.
basically everything is common knowledge now.
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On October 12 2011 05:48 Tal0n wrote:
will this work if you went pool first? i think gas first is absolutely worthless in all situations except for zvz.
I've had games where I went pool first and won with this style, for sure, but in the situations where they get a double wall-in you may find yourself wishing you had that extra gas to bust.
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Tang, nevermind the haters bro.. As I see it, with your posts and your dedication is that your actually trying to help the community with some general gameplay, the mindset and the whatnot.
I personally think its great what you're doing, I for one have had massive help with stuff that you've written.. Granted that it might not work on high calibre players as you've said, I think its still a viable thing to do.
I'm sure plenty of people will find this useful. Keep at it bro!
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High master terran player here. One-base baneling bust, in my eyes, is an extremely easy build to hold with a 2rax, especially if you use the 2rax+ depot/bunker wall. If your opponent actually tries to stay out on the map for any lengthy period of time with only marines vs. a one-base zerg then he probably deserves to lose the game anyway, but if he actually responds correctly you'll enjoy getting made to look like a fool every time you try and do this.
Guide's well-structured though, and the build makes sense and all so props for that, but you're basically just relying on your opponent making a mistake, so I wouldn't personally recommend the use of this build highly, especially if I were coaching.
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On October 12 2011 09:00 GGPope wrote:
If your opponent actually tries to stay out on the map for any lengthy period of time with only marines vs. a one-base zerg then he probably deserves to lose the game anyway, but if he actually responds correctly you'll enjoy getting made to look like a fool every time you try and do this.
Quite a few players blindly open 11/11, proxy 2rax, or maka-rax in TvZ. Some players even do more economic 2rax and will still try to move out and do some damage, while greedily moving towards a fast CC. Some players even do variations of the 3rax marine/scv all-in.
You can punish these types of strategies by going for a baneling bust, and win a good percentage of the time.
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not at all new. in fact, i posted a nearly identical build nearly a month ago and got ranted at because its a build thats been done SINCE BETA
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To think that all this brouhaha could have been avoided if you didn't include the link about your website...
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On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading
This.
I'm sorry, but this guide/build relies on your opponent being bad and not seeing this coming a mile away.
An offensive 2 rax can quickly become a defensive 2 rax in this situation if scouted...which you said this build doesn't work well against. In which case, why even try it in the first place?
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On October 12 2011 15:33 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading I'm sorry, but this guide/build relies on your opponent being bad and not seeing this coming a mile away.
Untrue, I estimate I've won about 70% of matches against aggressive 2rax builds using this counter attack at the high master / grand master level. It's more difficult than you think to scout it, and so many players will just throw up their command center after losing the initial engagement.
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On October 12 2011 19:54 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 15:33 Amaterasu1234 wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading I'm sorry, but this guide/build relies on your opponent being bad and not seeing this coming a mile away. Untrue, I estimate I've won about 70% of matches against aggressive 2rax builds using this counter attack at the high master / grand master level. It's more difficult than you think to scout it, and so many players will just throw up their command center after losing the initial engagement.
How is it difficult to send an SCV scout into the Zerg's natural or main? By the time your speed finishes you will have dropped the Baneling Nest in advance... slowlings won't completely stop him from seeing you have no hatchery unless he makes a big mistake.
When you say you've won 70% of your matches against aggressive 2 rax builds, what you're really saying is "I've won 70% of my games against people who try to attack into a 1 base Zerg instead of just defending and getting ahead." You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines. If you fail to do this, you lose your SCV, bunkers, and marines to early mass zerglings, at the least. Even if you chose not to attack at that point, you've eliminated any chance of the Terran doing early game damage to you and you can deny his expansion for a very long time with the Lings you've produced.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them.
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On October 12 2011 03:59 Crosswind wrote:I'm going to weigh in: In case you all missed it, Tang has pretty regularly posted aggressive responses to standard play. If you make mistakes against them, you die. While they are not for use in expert play, neither are 7 Roach Rushes, LIGHTNING RAGNAROK MAJESTY, etcetera. His elaborate dissection of the 14/14 BO in ZvT is fantastic, though, and worth reading for everybody. So let's let calmer heads prevail, and take this for what it is: a very dangerous all-in that can punish a 2-rax if the defender screws up. However, I really have to weigh in on... Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:40 DuncanIdaho wrote:I'm a very intelligent, Mensa society member and a graduate student studying statistics with a master's working on my PhD. ... However, KR, is still making a fallacy, one which I'll refer to as improper allocation of his Bayesian priors. For more on Bayesian priors...
(It would take several years of study to fully understand Bayesian priors, but in leyman's terms, their essentially the prior probabilities of events, before a decision is made. E.g, say you think if you go to Israel that it's more likely to die from a terrorist attack while there than a car accident. You are wrong, the probabilty of death from terrorist attacks are much lower than the common car wreck, but due to the inproportionate media coverage, we generally ascribe a higher probability to the terrorist attack death than it is due.) Here's a life tip, in the spirit of the life-hack thread: It take a pretty bright person to get a degree in statistics. But a genuinely intelligent person knows where and when to bring it up. You're taking the long, long road to make yourself sound smart. Which, on the internet, probably ends up not being worth it - instead, make a good, open-minded argument that's accessible. Your entire point regarding Kawaii's second point could have been phrased: It's not necessarily accurate to assume that your opponent is going to be good enough to choose the correct response. While at a certain level this may be a fair assumption, for a lot of readers of the strat forum, this isn't true. Just a tip, from a guy who used to sound similar! -Cross
Eh, perhaps, but according to the FFI ("five factor inventory" personality test), I rank low on modesty, and high on grandiosity. Thus, I'm probably a narcissist, but meh... Modesty may be "proper", but I think it's overrated. Essentially, there's 3 factors to any argument, pathos, ethos, logos, or, as I understand the translation, emotion, credibility, and logic. I was simply showing not only logic, but credibility as well. As for emotions, perhaps that was there, but I tried to suppress those as much as possible...  Yes, your life tip is good if your goal is to be liked, but my goal was to make a point, a point I felt was worth making, not necessarily avoid making enemies. But thank you, regardless.
<3
~DI
PS- Also, my wife, who is a special education teacher, believes I have an undiagnosed case of Asperger's Autism, which may explain a lot, though I don't know... In any case, if so, I'm low, I think, but perhaps high functioning enough to compensate. Though such people are generally low in ability to make wise social decisions, yet I don't feel I can't make them, rather that I just don't see the point in them, in many cases.
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On October 12 2011 22:37 CapnAmerica wrote:
You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them.
Well people still do risky 2rax styles, and over-commit to aggression so I'm saying in those situations counterattacking with ling/bane is viable. If they just pull back and play defensive when they see no expo, and you CAN'T surround their marines on the way back, then yes just expand and move into 2base play.
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On October 13 2011 01:11 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 22:37 CapnAmerica wrote:
You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them. Well people still do risky 2rax styles, and over-commit to aggression so I'm saying in those situations counterattacking with ling/bane is viable. If they just pull back and play defensive when they see no expo, and you CAN'T surround their marines on the way back, then yes just expand and move into 2base play.
But all that shows is that horribly messing up as a Terran player will make you lose games. It's like attacking with 20 lings into a perfect bunkered simcity at the natural. You're going to lose all of them and accomplish little.
Yes, knowing that you can baneling bust and win a game if you're hugely ahead is nice, but one base baneling busts are easily scouted and only powerful enough to win against players who play badly to begin with. This strategy will only work against inferior opponents or people who just blatantly don't scout and react to what they scout. 2 Base Baneling Bust is much more powerful and has much more room for error -- skipping that extra base makes you weaker.
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On October 13 2011 01:42 CapnAmerica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 01:11 TangSC wrote:On October 12 2011 22:37 CapnAmerica wrote:
You should never attack someone doing 14/14 with a 2 rax -- send in your SCV to bunker rush first and if they hatchery isn't there, you simply pull back your marines.
There's just no way for you to beat someone who opens 2rax with this unless they play in a very risky manner that simply doesn't reward them. Well people still do risky 2rax styles, and over-commit to aggression so I'm saying in those situations counterattacking with ling/bane is viable. If they just pull back and play defensive when they see no expo, and you CAN'T surround their marines on the way back, then yes just expand and move into 2base play. But all that shows is that horribly messing up as a Terran player will make you lose games. It's like attacking with 20 lings into a perfect bunkered simcity at the natural. You're going to lose all of them and accomplish little.
It's not about the player being horrible lol it's the fact that a 1base baneling bust is unexpected and most terran players assume that after their 2rax pressure is held off, zerg are just going to expand into the macro game. There is less and less all-in aggression against 2rax, and that's why I made the thread - this build exploits the current metagame.
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It's not about the player being horrible lol it's the fact that a 1base baneling bust is unexpected
sry but i have to disagree with this to. if the terran has any kind of knowledge about this game then he will know that a 1 base zerg can only mean ONE thing, and that is a all in of some sort. if he knows ur on 1 base (which is not hard to find out since all zergs get there expos insanely early) then t he should come to the LOGICAL conclusion that its a baneling bust all in.
the other 2 options are 1 base muta (which is horrifically outdated and bad nowadays),
8-9 minute ultra rush which is just another cheese build
or a nydus which is only used if a hatch has been denied and u have been walled in at the bottom of ur ramp.
out of all of these options a baneling bust is the most logical and the most probable.
if a terran looses to this then it is his fault for lack of scouting. and at the GM level it is shameful to hear that ppl lack good knowledge and scouting of the game because all they did was cheese 100% of there games to get into GM.... if there was a text book that teaches u the fundamentals of SC2, scouting would be on page 1 of chapter 1......
lets face it, its not that hard to scout out a 1 base zerg. especially when u see he is making a damn baneling nest before his first hatch ffs -_-
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so many comments on such a dumb thread..
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EPT
