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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:32 Moosegills wrote: If he didn't think it was a solid build (which it definitely is not) why would he make a guide about it? Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=baneling busts&t=t&f=-1&u=&gb=date&d= You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:46 TangSC wrote: Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build. It's hardly a viable response. It's a gamble and you pray they fuck up. I 2rax as my main TvZ build and don't think I've actually lost to a baneling bust on 1base the last 5+ times they've attempted. Same with roach rushes on 1 base. Everytime they've utterly failed... | ||
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Nate.F
918 Posts
On November 26 2011 03:46 TangSC wrote: Because I think it's an effective build and a viable response. It's not "solid" in the sense that it's macro-oriented, but it wins games and there's a lot of room to improve your mechanics/micro while using this build. dude its not a response. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:40 FabledIntegral wrote: It's hardly a viable response. It's a gamble and you pray they fuck up. I 2rax as my main TvZ build and don't think I've actually lost to a baneling bust on 1base the last 5+ times they've attempted. Same with roach rushes on 1 base. Everytime they've utterly failed... I've had success with it, and I think it's pretty strong and difficult to stop if you execute it properly. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:33 .kv wrote: You state that you are doing these cheesy all-in builds to help benefit the zerg players that are struggling. In what way are they benefiting from this? By getting a win? You don't benefit from just getting a win on the ladder. You benefit from earning that win through solid play. Why promote players to depend upon their opponents to not scout X and hope for them to do that 1 BUILD that it "counters." That is in no way helping someone; it is hurting their play in fact. I understand where you're coming from, but I truly believe playing aggressive is the key to rapid improvement at SC2. I don't agree with the notion that solid macro play is the only way to play a given matchup - I think having aggressive responses and transitions based on your scouting information is an excellent approach. Understanding the timings and the execution of basic all-in responses and learning to optimally time and execute your push will help you improve the level of precision to your build orders (while improving multitasking/micro/macro). | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:02 TangSC wrote: I've had success with it, and I think it's pretty strong and difficult to stop if you execute it properly. If you execute properly? Doesn't matter what you do if Terran is prepared for it... how do you even "execute it wrong." It's a build that's been around since the beta... your build order is identical (except it actually gets an extra drone and cuts a single pair of lings which actually makes your bust weaker...) to the old school baneling bust used vs both Protoss and Terran. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:12 TangSC wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but I truly believe playing aggressive is the key to rapid improvement at SC2. I don't agree with the notion that solid macro play is the only way to play a given matchup - I think having aggressive responses and transitions based on your scouting information is an excellent approach. Understanding the timings and the execution of basic all-in responses and learning to optimally time and execute your push will help you improve the level of precision to your build orders (while improving multitasking/micro/macro). You keep saying that doing all in pushes is a good way to practice your multitasking and macro, but in no way does doing an all in help mechanics more than playing longer games in which you are dealing with larger economies, armies, and overall stuff at the same time. You need to quit trying to sell the notion that all ins are the best way to learn. They just aren't. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 26 2011 07:11 Moosegills wrote: You keep saying that doing all in pushes is a good way to practice your multitasking and macro, but in no way does doing an all in help mechanics more than playing longer games in which you are dealing with larger economies, armies, and overall stuff at the same time. You need to quit trying to sell the notion that all ins are the best way to learn. They just aren't. It has been my experience that learning to properly manage 1 and 2 base economies at an optimally efficient level is a better exercise in improving mechanics than a poorly managed 3-5 base economy. You have to crawl before you can walk. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On November 26 2011 07:15 TangSC wrote: It has been my experience that learning to properly manage 1 and 2 base economies at an optimally efficient level is a better exercise in improving mechanics than a poorly managed 3-5 base economy. You have to crawl before you can walk. But by practicing all ins, to a persons brain who is doing the all in, the game ends at that point. They either win or they lose at that point because they are all in. I think that having such a restrictive mindset is a really bad way to learn. | ||
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Shmu
Canada27 Posts
Thanks for this post, as a gold level Zerg I find this kind of advice both helpful and encouraging... I frequently find myself seeing opportunities to punish an opponent (scouting early aggression, turtling, FE, or just terrible builds) but I have trouble with the "Dishing out" of said punishment... my inclination as a player is to be aggressive, and though I understand the value of droning hard and macroing up, I'm glad to see someone trying to cultivate more of a "just fucking kill 'em" playstyle  Keep up the good work, and thanks for the guides! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 26 2011 07:54 Shmu wrote: Hey Tang, Thanks for this post, as a gold level Zerg I find this kind of advice both helpful and encouraging... I frequently find myself seeing opportunities to punish an opponent (scouting early aggression, turtling, FE, or just terrible builds) but I have trouble with the "Dishing out" of said punishment... my inclination as a player is to be aggressive, and though I understand the value of droning hard and macroing up, I'm glad to see someone trying to cultivate more of a "just fucking kill 'em" playstyle Keep up the good work, and thanks for the guides! This has nothing to do with seeing the opportunities. You have to blindly do it before you even know if they're going to be greedy or not. It works if they are being overly aggressive, but you have no idea if they're going to be overly aggressive when you're building the Zerglings prepping for the bust, because you never go back to drones. | ||
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nOondn
564 Posts
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forevernerdy
England31 Posts
On November 26 2011 15:14 nOondn wrote: Play all in to improve game mechanics ? ... How come. If you wanna be a better player just play macro game instead of stupid all in. This game is not only attack to win , but to manage your money , to defend , to harassment , to do a multitasking etc. I kind of get what he's saying...it isn't the build you choose that's the most important, it's how well you execute it and exploit your opponent's weakness. I 2rax often, and I think I'd *probably* hold this type of counterattack most games. But like I said earlier, if I went for some sort of scv all-in or overcommitted just a bit which a lot of players willd o Id outright lose the game. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 26 2011 15:14 nOondn wrote: Play all in to improve game mechanics ? ... How come. If you wanna be a better player just play macro game instead of stupid all in. This game is not only attack to win , but to manage your money , to defend , to harassment , to do a multitasking etc. As long as you're playing an active style, then you'll improve. A lot of players are very lazy with scouting and harassment when they play a purely macro-oriented style and so I recommend just playing very aggressively to keep you constantly doing something. Of course macro will help you learn, but you need to be scouting all the time and doing everything you can to improve your multitasking. By playing aggressive you're forced to improve your multitasking, I never said this type of all-in response is the "best" way to learn but by practicing it now and then (for example, practicing it when a player 2raxes you) you'll improve a set of skills and mechanics that a macro style overlooks. Don't do an all-in everygame, but definitely be capable of it and experienced in the timing and execution. | ||
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ChanmanV
United States1156 Posts
- You have to open 14 gas/pool with this defense which I do agree is the best to defend 2 rax, but most every terran nowadays on most maps open helion expand. So you'll be behind right off the bat not opening 15 hatch if the game doesn't end on the bust. You won't be able to kill a good terran going helion this way. The helions usually pop right as your doing the bust and there will always be some kind of bunker behind wall. You'll do some damage but not enough. - If you want to base bane bust against a 2 rax opening, I feel the 2 base bane bust (Kyrix style) is usually more effective. You get just as much scouting and it's got a similar feel but revolves more around how much damage you can do to the natural vs the ramp/main. You bust the natural successfully and you pretty much win the game too and your chances of success are probably higher. Plus, if you decide there is no opening for the bust you are even or a little ahead of the terran economically so can easily transition into mid game. Overall, I do agree that people should be well versed at these types of aggression but it's a risky strategy. Given it's a risky strategy, it's probably best to be used when you know your opponent is better than you. Otherwise, why risk the game early when you can have a higher chance of success later? | ||
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
Yes, it can work, but if it does, it's for the same reason that KiWiKaKi occasionally wins. They don't expect you to do that because they have never played someone who has, so they don't know how to stop it. Not to mention how all-in it is, and all they have to do is double wall, and then you are behind economically. And if you didn't expand behind it, you lose. | ||
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simbot
Australia95 Posts
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NicoLoco
Norway159 Posts
Sure, it works from time to time, especially if your opponent spawns so his rax can't face his walloff but his addon has to, but it's not a "surfire way to handle 2rax". I agree that the game should be played responsively, but just the other day a top 10 master player pylonblocked my rax for addons when I was going 1rax FE without gas. He made himself look rediculous, the same way you will when I scout that you haven't expanded, nor do you plan to. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
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