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On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote:
What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late?
Well, for a list of their accomplishments, and the fact that they even have TL Liquipedia profiles, see here:
KawaiiRice's Profile
PokeBunny's Profile
In my eyes, this shows evidence enough that they are pro. Given, age 18 and 16, thus perhaps a tad immature, but despite this, they're pro. So I disagree with your "must have won mlgs/gsls" requirment. But regardless, I think we're on the same side in defending Tang, but I still think despite their BM, KawaiiRice and Pokebunny should not be discounted as "not-pro".
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On October 10 2011 13:16 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote:
What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Well, for a list of their accomplishments, and the fact that they even have TL Liquipedia profiles, see here: KawaiiRice's ProfilePokeBunny's ProfileIn my eyes, this shows evidence enough that they are pro. Given, age 18 and 16, thus perhaps a tad immature, but despite this, they're pro. So I disagree with your "must have won mlgs/gsls" requirment. But regardless, I think we're on the same side in defending Tang, but I still think despite their BM, KawaiiRice and Pokebunny should not be discounted as "not-pro".
Not to be disrespectful to Pokebunny, But he is by no means, a Pro player, if anything he is a Semi-pro at BEST
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I simply don't get why GM Terrans would not just sit back and go defensive 2 rax when they scout gas-pool. They know that your expo is already delayed, so they're already ahead.
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Tang, you're disgusting. I'm not gonna bother saying anything else because KawaiiRice, Pokebunny and RoyalFlush pretty much covered it all already.
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Speed doesn't finish in time to actually deal with 11/11, so you still need a very solid defense to avoid getting contained. If they scout no expansion, they typically won't bother attacking beyond a small contain. The most common reaction to a contain / lost hatch is a baneling bust, so most terran players are already preparing for that (and some go straight into hellions off 2 gas, making your timing very short). This is a rather silly thread, to be honest.
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On October 10 2011 15:36 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Speed doesn't finish in time to actually deal with 11/11, so you still need a very solid defense to avoid getting contained. If they scout no expansion, they typically won't bother attacking beyond a small contain. The most common reaction to a contain / lost hatch is a baneling bust, so most terran players are already preparing for that (and some go straight into hellions off 2 gas, making your timing very short). This is a rather silly thread, to be honest.
Also even if Zergs lose their hatchery, some clever zergs have displayed that double expanding is a better response since terrans expect you to all in.(see DRG vs NaDa MLG Raleigh TDA game)
After killing the hatchery, most terrans would proceed to do a 3 tank push as a followup. 11/11 or 12/14 delays the gas of the terran by a lot, hence there is enough time to get to 3 bases and produce enough for the push.(not on all maps tho).
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Bobo, you not having a PhD or being in Mensa is not the problem, I was simply saying that being good at SC2 doesn't mean you know all and anything contrary to your views is obviously wrong, since you (proverbial you as a "pro-gamer", not necessarily anyone in particular) beat most players. For example, Idra thinks there's imba's everywhere, and although I'm a huge fanboy of him, I don't agree the game is imbalanced, simply that his style has problems with these issues, at least from his perspective.
As for my understanding of balance, perhaps we share differing views. But I refuse to believe that Zergs must play macro, and have no viable "cheesey" options, especially when it's responsive cheese to their own cheesy build. Should someone b-burst blindly, ffs no, but if they're not teching, and their wall is vulnerable, why not try? Banshees will be delayed, so that's no problem. So we sac some econ by not expanding fast in order to punish their cheese? Sounds reasonable. Apparently I don't understand balance since I refuse to believe Zergs must play a macro style, and despite this, that makes the game balanced. I argue Zergs can opt for a non-FE, 1-base response, and still be in a commanding position, not necessarily screwed. And personally, if this is not true, I think it is an imba, because it's not fair that Zergs have one viable BO, while all other races can pick and choose. (If you think this means I think SC2 is imba towards Zerg, you're not reading between the lines.)
As for this:
"Since beta zergs have been susceptible to one base terrans because we have no way of knowing what they're doing. Many pro zerg players complain about this. But terran DO NOT have this same problem and a build such as this is simply trying to exploit a weakness that terran don't have. There is NO difference between this baneling bust and any other one base baneling bust. If they scout it you lose. If they don't scout it you might win. Personally, i would rather take my chances playing a straight up macro game."
First, why is this true, and is it? Obviously if the spawns are close enough, olord scouts can see inside. Furthermore, if you scout between 9-12 supply, there is a good chance you drone can get in before the wall-off is complete. If your drone is consistently blocked out, you may be scouting too late. And there is a difference between this and "any other one base baneling burst". Tang is advocating a speedling expand, morphed into a b-burst given a 2rax is scouted.
Personally, I say scout early (9-10 supply, later if you're able), and if you see no gas, throw down a gas and a pool and do a speedling expand, you may be able to pressure a Terran early expand, and you'll be prepared for any multi-rax shenanigans. If you see a gas, opt for an FE on 15-16 supply, and play your standard spines&queens(maybe speedlings if you go for 100gas first) defense. But personally, the defense against a 2rax after FE as Zerg is a tad too uncomfortable for my tastes, though I do it anyways, and I have been curious if there are other options...
I'm not saying Tang's is the answer. But I do think a 1base response is theoretically viable, and I'm simply defending the notion that Zergs don't have to simply expo and try their best to absorb the hit.
pros do not know everything, and they are not always right, but they will be right much more often than you are. i think you are not giving them enough credit for the time and effort they are spending in the game. many times when they tell you something does not work, it is through a lot of trial and testing in private, and sometimes it is not feasible to write a huge detailed response for why something does or does not work. they are contributing to the community simply by sharing their hard earned results and attained knowledge.
starcraft is a lot like philosophy and logic, where many smart people dabble in it, but they do not train or have much technical knowledge of the subject matter, yet form strong opinions. being intelligent is great, but someone who is concentrating solely on the game will surpass you both on the performance and theoretical knowledge simply by spending so much more time. pros dismiss a lot of ideas because people rehash ideas they've thought of months ago, and demand proof that the idea is not invalid when the pro was already doing you a favor and saving you the trouble of finding out the hard way. starcraft contains too many smart and accomplished people in other fields, which seems to be where a lot of argument and conflict occur.
anyway, i'd like to add that zerg have a lot of "cheesy" plays that are totally viable and are often used when they spot greedy econ plays. 7 roach busts, nydus worms, baneling busts are all used in the GSL when they scout builds that are vulnerable to it.
the idea that zerg cannot outmacro a terran one base is true, and has been shown time and time again. this isn't an imbalance because the zerg race was designed to have an easier time expanding, and the mule mechanics help a one base terran, while the drone mechanics help a multi-base zerg. just because 1 base to 1 base favors one race does not mean it is imbalanced, because the other race has an easier time getting to multi bases. it's a matter of different strengths versus different weaknesses. if you don't want to macro as zerg, there are those 1 base builds you can use in response to a greedy player, but if they chose to play a defensive macro style, then you have no choice but to play a macro game. it is not much different for terran -- if they want to play a 1 base game and the zerg scouts it and responds appropriately, the terran will have to expand and be behind or just go for an allin and die when it gets inevitably defended.
tldr; pros play for hundreds of thousands and their ideas are generally right because it's their livelihood
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to all that are argueing about wether this is viable or not, (and those who have phd's or whatever), yes this can be viable on prolevel, IF you're good at hiding it and at performing it. The point of the pro's in this thread is only this: Tang is making a long guide about a strategy that is WELLKNOWN and has been around for ages, he didn't even put much work into this guide, it's bad written, he rambles on about HIMSELF and doesn't really give any detailed tips, hell, even in his video he didn't denie the terran scouting the nest, so clearly the terran did play bad.
TLDR: Tang is only trying to promote himself in this thread, (and in a very bad way imo, hey, look at me, i'm pro anti-cheeser by cheesing in response).
nothing to see here, move along.
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What does this guide accomplish? It tells people who are struggling with 2rax to open blindly with a suboptimal build vT (complete with drone scout, which puts you even further behind against normal play) and then all-in if they see a build which isn't particularly bad against the all-in. Worst of all, it doesn't even tell people how to transition from 14/14 against anything other than a 2rax.
If you want to make a guide to 'hyperaggressive play', you should actually explain a number of different builds/what they are good against. This isn't even a guide to a 1base baneling bust, it's a guide to baneling busting a 2rax. That's so specific it's almost totally worthless (and it's ridiculous that you wrote so much about it).
Why not explain an opener (14/14) and the various different transitions against different terran openers? A complete guide would have proper transitions for each possible opener from the terran; even if that's just "roach all-in a hellion opener" or "baneling bust any gasless play" with appropriate descriptions of each build, it would be a vast improvement.
As it is your guide teaches a suboptimal standard. Going 14/14 and then drone scouting puts you way behind a 14/14 with a ling scout, or a hatch first with a drone scout. If you're going to tell people to do this, tell them what to do with the information. 2rax yes/no isn't enough. Do it properly and the shameless plug of your youtube channel/coaching might actually be acceptable.
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Jehct ->
I thought he is going to such an early scout to make sure it's 2 rax before he opens 14/14, because if this build is 14/14 always no matter of terran opening then it's really BAD.
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Well , the 2 rax will be putting insane pressure on. To hold a 2 rax as soon as I scout it i take all drones off gas and make pure lings. You say to get speed, and banes, off one base? sorry, but you will never have enough to defend the initial pressure the 2 rax brings
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This would work pretty well, though I still believe it is a coin toss as to who would win. Obviously if the Terran is not prepared it will not work, but it is a powerful all-in from Zerg. Firstly though, you would have to defend against the 2 tax aggression, and the Terran, seeing as you have not expanded, may quickly start teching and/or defending, as he would expect a baneling bust or roach rush.
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Hi,
~700pt Diamond Terran here.
My thoughts on this thread:
• Starts edging the Zerg mindset into a more aggressive style, possibly shifting the entire early game vT and vP. Despite the lack of thought and major self-promotion, I believe the main contribution this has made to the community is that it will get Zerg players at every level of SC2 to thinking just a little about how they can be more aggressive. StarCraft changes and evolves continuously and this thread nudges the evolution along a little bit.
• For those of us who have not followed Tang's previous guides, career and have not learned of him before this thread, his conduct in responding to such blatant (imo ban worthy) hate has made me respect and like Tang more then any show of skill in StarCraft. The most powerful attack against Tang would be a tactful, clear and educated stating of their opinions against the value of this thread.
As opposed to this:
+ Show Spoiler +"Tang, you're disgusting. I'm not gonna bother saying anything else because KawaiiRice, Pokebunny and RoyalFlush pretty much covered it all already." zoohairz
• I personally hope that Zerg's in general do not read this thread as it will make me a little more cautious whenever I FE with little or no units hoping that the Zerg decided to only make the standard 4 initial zerglings instead of 6.
tl;dr Grow up StarCraft community, we are playing the most intellectually advanced strategy (very bias here) game that requires continuous re-evaluation of our "set" strategies.
- (prOxi) MultiSniper
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Such a misleading title, I guess you could call an all-in response "Hyper-Aggressive" tho, but a 'counter', really?
As mentioned by previous posters this is a strat from way back in beta, there's prolly even a thread about it somewhere in the archives, and it will most likely not be filled with fluff to make it seem more legit than it actually is.
I have no doubt it will work against high-masters/GMs. I'm fairly high master myself on I can honestly say that I make so many mistakes in every single game. But that's also my problem with this guide, it relies on your opponent making a mistake.
The proper response from the terran to this is simply this:
See no expansion, poke up your ramp with a scv to see what's up, count your gas and if they feel like it bunkerblock below your ramp, leave a few marines in the bunkers and scvs to repair, which forces you to get a spine in range, roaches or banelings to bust out.
Meanwhile the terran will just prepare his expansion above his ramp and make a bunker to complete the safe wall-in while transitioning into tanks or whatever, now he is safe from your baneling all-in, so if you still attempt it he wins, if you chose not to do the bust and play standard your second hatch will get up so late, that you will be behind in econ and will have tremendous problems holding the tank/marine follow-up push.
But I dno, I assume you have edited your orginal post since all the negative comments got posted. Cos as it is now it's not a bad guide for a 'cheesy' one base all-in. And we really shouldn't be hating on anyone for even attempting to bring something back to the community, regardless of quality.
Oh, and @DuncanIdaho. Why would you open your post stating your MENSA membership, and college degrees? Being a member of MENSA is pretty bad if you ask me, if you yourself know that you are infact intelligent, why do you feel the need to pay their organisation a membership fee just so you can brag about it? True, noone said intelligent people are humble. And I don't know what amazing entertaining jobs you will land with your masters in statistics, but I dare to go out on a limb and say it isn't going to be nearly as fun as playing SC2 in my moms basement! 
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terrans have eyes... they can see u onebaseing. really m8.
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I don't understand why people are discrediting the Tang's opponents. He, and the people he plays, are better than 99.9999% of the SC2 community that post on TL, so if these sort of builds work at a GM level, then saying they won't work against your opponents based on their skill is ridiculous.
Also, a terran who fails at his 2-rax is going to cut corners to catch back up in eco, i.e. most likely skip bunkers in his main in favor of bunkers at his natural once he expands, which this build easily counters as the nat won't even be up yet.
Again, as he has clarified, this build relies on not allowing your opponent to scout your nat, and with early ling speed it should be easy enough. This does leave scan, but how many terrans can afford using 2 scans (1 for nat/1 for main) at the 5-minute mark after being behind? Arguing this point is retarded, that is all.
It's also funny how Kawaii completely discredits a build designed to help the mass majority of the community under-GM. Nowhere does Tang claim that the build is going to work against Terrans like Thorzain or MVP, but rather against high-Masters to low GM and below is what it's designed for. And yea, as someone else in this thread pointed out, Kawaii is at best semi-pro with zero notable tournament wins. Sorry, facts are that not every self-proclaimed SC2 pro who posts mediocre-poor results in tournaments should actually be considered poor. Inb4 "omgz but he beat kiwkiaki"...yea, everyone gets lucky.
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On October 10 2011 13:16 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:35 TheLastGoose wrote:On October 10 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:On October 10 2011 10:05 shifty wrote:
What we have learned from this thread -
The NA Ladder is Terrible. What we really learned from this thread: Terrans are allowed to cheese, and be just fine. In fact, you better play standard, no matter what if you're Zerg, or you'll lose. Zerg's can never ever ever cheese. Oh, and there is no imbalance, and anyone who says otherwise obviously sucks. NO. What we've learned is that 2rax is a problem, and even the pros lose to it, so why not theorycraft some responses? Gooddamn guys, have some patience, or some counterarguments other than trolling flames. I wish someone would warn/ban anyone on the flame-without-anything-constructive-to-say train. Given, a few pro-gamers seem to disagree with Tang, but that's still no green-light to turn on the troll train. who is the pro gamers? somehow i fail to see anyone posting in this thread with a mlg win under their belt, let alone a gsl. pretty sure pro gamers have better things to do than post on tl edit: unless you clearly post your rank and have something under your belt other than some tournament showings. don't hate on what i'd clearly define as a reactionary situation where a zerg player actually did the correct thing and won because it was out of the box. what else would you like him to do, clear those bunkers up and take his expansion 2 minutes late? Well, for a list of their accomplishments, and the fact that they even have TL Liquipedia profiles, see here: KawaiiRice's ProfilePokeBunny's ProfileIn my eyes, this shows evidence enough that they are pro. Given, age 18 and 16, thus perhaps a tad immature, but despite this, they're pro. So I disagree with your "must have won mlgs/gsls" requirment. But regardless, I think we're on the same side in defending Tang, but I still think despite their BM, KawaiiRice and Pokebunny should not be discounted as "not-pro".
if they aren't supporting themselves financially by purely playing starcraft they aren't a "pro"
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On October 10 2011 09:12 TangSC wrote:
Let's be friendly guys! If you don't like the build, detail exactly what terran can do to prevent it rather than insult people.
Ummm... How exactly do you think they have been discrediting it so far?
Edit: Oh I ignored a fair amount of posts that were less than two lines in this thread before posting this...
I like the idea of punishing a 2-rax, but I feel it's more efficient if you did a 15 hatch, kept that alive through the aggression and transitioned into a more kyrixzenex style high eco aggression.
This reminds me of Kyrix vs Foxer... possibly my favourite set so far in SC2 history
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LOL another Tang thread. You really are shameless in your advertising attempts aren't you.
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I find that this is only effective when the Terran decides to pursue aggression despite scouting your 14/14.
If I kill 2-3 marines and 2-3 scvs (which you brought out to create a contain), I find that the odds of a successful bust go up exponentially.
If he doesn't press forward with the 2-rax after scouting the 14/14, there is no reason to conduct a baneling bust, and that's (I believe) the point of this guide and thread.
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EPT
