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On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter.
So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this.
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On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter.
Says a lot about the Zergs they are playing against
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Um yeah, why wouldn't he just wall you off if you're 1basing. He sees you bust out of the contain, you're already behind, he throws down a couple bunkers at home and is safe from any more 1 base shenanigans. And you lose.
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On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this.
You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and rude.
I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds.
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On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this.
...
This.
If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks".
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On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks".
Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively.
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On October 10 2011 01:51 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively.
Eh... I don't think you can deny enough to really kill suspicion of an allin.
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On October 10 2011 01:53 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:51 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively. Eh... I don't think you can deny enough to really kill suspicion of an allin.
Well you just need to keep them away from your expansion.
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On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds.
If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide to promote yourself.
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I really hope that <diamond Zerg players that are struggling with 2rax don't see this thread and think of it as the answer. if you really wanted to bling bust, go hatch first then do a 2 base bust. It's less all in, less scoutable, and therefore, more likely to be beneficial.
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On October 10 2011 01:57 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide for to promote yourself.
I'm not talking about the SC2 pro scene, but I have extensive experience coaching SC2 and to make top 200 in North America means I'm at least above average in skill. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, and I'm not saying I don't benefit at all from making these posts, as I do mention my website. However, TL posts and youtube is my way of giving back to the community and those who can't afford coaching. I sincerely feel that this build is a response that will help players of all skill levels improve and deal with terran aggression. You can say it has a low chance of success, and in the pro scene that may be true, but my goal is to help aspiring zerg players struggling to play a style that doesn't suit them. I don't mind being criticized, and I don't mind people arguing that the builds are ineffective for whatever reason - active and critical analysis is important - but I expect better from professional players than to make personal attacks. I am certain people will benefit from my guides and I will continue to produce aggressive-zerg style threads. I will do everything I can to help the SC2 community improve their confidence and abilities <3
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wow nice build, i've known that a baneling bust vs a "aggressive" (proxy) can be very strong and need to be aware of it, but haven't seen so many banelings o.o lol
edit: isn't advertising not allowed? especially in a strategy thread? what's with the tangstarcraft coaching advertisement...
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On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter.
If this is a build you wouldn't do against a high caliber player, then what's the point? 14/14 baneling bust will work against a sloppy terran, even a sloppy protoss; against someone who is decent and that high up it will never work because it's too easy to defend.
Keep in mind as well, before bunkers go up the scv is there able to scout you not expand. If they see you go speed first then usually terrans will play more defensively because they are wary of speedlings. They pull back, wall in and you have nothing.
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What a Pride like guide. But for zergs! I feel I'm with pokebunny... once it's scouted that you aren't expanding, and you get sling speed that early, I always back off and FE in base and sit in my base until stim, blue flame, siege... something. I also do an scv poke or a scan at the main to check roach or bane once I suspect one base from zerg.
Sure, it works, but it requires some slack play, which in my case happens all the time.
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On October 10 2011 02:09 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide for to promote yourself. I'm not talking about the SC2 pro scene, but I have extensive experience coaching SC2 and to make top 200 in North America means I'm at least above average in skill. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, and I'm not saying I don't benefit at all from making these posts, as I do mention my website. However, TL posts and youtube is my way of giving back to the community and those who can't afford coaching. I sincerely feel that this build is a response that will help players of all skill levels improve and deal with terran aggression. You can say it has a low chance of success, and in the pro scene that may be true, but my goal is to help aspiring zerg players struggling to play a style that doesn't suit them. I don't mind being criticized, and I don't mind people arguing that the builds are ineffective for whatever reason - active and critical analysis is important - but I expect better from professional players than to make personal attacks. I am certain people will benefit from my guides and I will continue to produce aggressive-zerg style threads. I will do everything I can to help the SC2 community improve their confidence and abilities <3
I think that anytime you play at diamond+ and lose to a cheese, it doesn't mean that you're a horrible player, but you sure played horrible that game if you managed to lose to it, hence "you're basically praying for your opponent to be bad for this to work", and I completely agree. You've made your stances on the viability of this build, it's flaw, etc, fine fine.
I've sat back and watched your posts, and there's always something a bit off on the way you present yourself. I'm not going to take kawaii's words and say that he and I are talking about the same thing to the pin, but this guide is simply poorly constructed. I agree that a guide on a cheese, and that realm of strategy is always good to have in your toolset, but step back for a minute and read your own guide. Read the title for god's sake.
[G] Hyper-Aggressive ZvT: Countering the 2Rax (GM) It was said in the first post and I'll explain it more now. As a reader of tl, I'd expect to see a style that was well thought out and an effective response to a terran who 2 rax's. I also expect this build to be a viable strategy for any player under GM. I open the thread and you make the disclaimer in exaggerated terms that this build is a cheese. Why couldn't you write "[G] Baneling bust zvt: Counter the 2 rax"? Not only does it provide more information about the build, but it takes less space to do it.
The problem I have with your guides is you put so much clutter into it that it looks like you're shamelessly trying to promote yourself. Everything under the "concept" tab is complete and useless information, and it takes up 3 paragraphs. I'll write a new one for you
Concept: This build is designed to combat the 2 rax agressive play that terrans have been using in response to zerg's who fast expand. This is essentially to counter terrans who metagame zergs that go hatch first. Done.
Your execution of the build is also poorly written. The first part provides no tips on scouting, and basically says: once your speed is finished, rally lings to his expansion. You then provide the way to bust the wall... and then what? You provide no follow up. Am I to assume that I can bust any wall? What do I do if he has a double rax triple depot wall? What do I do if the bust fails? What do I do when I get into the base? Do I sac the lings and kill scvs and then macro? Do I kill marines that come out and keep rallying lings until I have enough to overrun him? When if ever should I expand? If he starts another wall should I bust it again? You've provided me information about hotkeying my units, but you haven't taught me any follow up to the build.
All in all, I feel like the reason everyone has negative feelings about this guide is because you've taken a response that would take 1 paragraph to write, and written 6+ paragraphs on it, while promoting yourself.
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Oh yeah sure, like zerg need any help against terran i mean seriously, oh im zerg and I can make 90 drones off 4bases in 10 minutes and be just fine then make 80 ultras and then 80 broodlords then slings then infestors for a auto-win every time, how logical eh
User was banned for this post.
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I'll do this sometimes if I scout a proxy 2 rax and they overcommit, but my usual inclination is to speedling expand.
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On October 10 2011 03:02 phiinix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 02:09 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:57 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. You're putting words in my mouth, Kawaii, and I don't understand your hostility. I don't even know how you inferred that I think it's a "solid build". In fact, I argue the complete opposite. It's not going to work every time, it's not going to set you up with a macro advantage. It's going to win a high enough percentage of games to make it a reasonable and effective response to the 2rax. For you to call players that have lost to it "really bad" is both untrue and incredibly rude. I made it to GM and this is one of my response to 2rax pressure, and I think any zerg can incorporate it in their arsenal of builds. If my way of speaking is hostile to you then I apologize. However that is what I believe. Winning games nor a na gm rank mean you're good in the pro scene. If you intend to help the community and write a guide then it should be something useful and well thought out and adhere to to strat guidelines. However now to be truly hostile- this is just an allin with a low chance of success and you're presenting a guide for to promote yourself. I'm not talking about the SC2 pro scene, but I have extensive experience coaching SC2 and to make top 200 in North America means I'm at least above average in skill. I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, and I'm not saying I don't benefit at all from making these posts, as I do mention my website. However, TL posts and youtube is my way of giving back to the community and those who can't afford coaching. I sincerely feel that this build is a response that will help players of all skill levels improve and deal with terran aggression. You can say it has a low chance of success, and in the pro scene that may be true, but my goal is to help aspiring zerg players struggling to play a style that doesn't suit them. I don't mind being criticized, and I don't mind people arguing that the builds are ineffective for whatever reason - active and critical analysis is important - but I expect better from professional players than to make personal attacks. I am certain people will benefit from my guides and I will continue to produce aggressive-zerg style threads. I will do everything I can to help the SC2 community improve their confidence and abilities <3 All in all, I feel like the reason everyone has negative feelings about this guide is because you've taken a response that would take 1 paragraph to write, and written 6+ paragraphs on it, while promoting yourself.
Just trying to help people out man.
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The title is very misleading. You present it as a new style to counter 2 rax, when 1: it doesn't necessarily counter 2 rax, and 2: it's not new. The terran didn't wall off the ramp which was super dumb, and on top of it, he scouted the baneling nest with his scv and did nothing to prepare for it. No marines, no bunker wall, etc. This is just a regular 1 base baneling bust. Nothing new here.
Plus I hate in your opening paragraph when you say things like "If you're a pure-macro player, close the thread now because this will not be to your liking." As if you're presenting something a macro player doesn't already know. This is not a guide, it's just a showcase for sloppy play. Besides I hate the term "macro player." WTF does that even mean. Every player is a macro player.
I was expecting some cool new Korean style with lots of muta and drop agression, fast tech and a lot of midgame planning, but I was left with a subpar replay of a bling allin against a Terran who looks like he has no clue what hes doing.
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I don't see whats wrong with the build, it's actually quite genius to baneling all-in after a failed 2-rax all-in. He never said it was effective against macro 2 rax but only strong against proxy rax and seriously aggressive 2 rax. Thing is, 2 rax is quite a dead build these days but it's still very cool to see zergs punishing terrans expecting for the 2 rax to not be countered. And his opening statement is kinda correct, because most macro zergs will try to sneak in a drone here and there but that's wrong! you gotta jump the gun like Julyzerg and not a lot of zergs are even trying that.
don't listen to the haters!
My typical response to aggressive 2 rax is usually uber defensive. my first queen spreads creep, I get two spine crawlers and edge my way to the ramp. I end up getting a macro hatch and just drone like crazy, if they invest in bunkers beyond my ramp then I get lings for busting. The macro hatch really allows you to stay ahead in worker count, so when you do break the contain you aren't very far behind and you have spine crawlers and 2 queens for any hellion or banshee transition.
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EPT
