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Canada1866 Posts
On October 10 2011 04:31 ShiZz wrote:
I was expecting some cool new Korean style with lots of muta and drop agression, fast tech and a lot of midgame planning, but I was left with a subpar replay of a bling allin against a Terran who looks like he has no clue what hes doing.
Namcihr is ranked 75 in NA grand master and he's known to be in the top 16. Sorry you got the wrong impression, but it's a guide to countering the 2rax - I don't think you can get to mutas and drops in time to hold the 2rax ^^. In short, I know this guide will be incredibly helpful to those who have trouble holding against 2rax pressure.
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mid-masters player here, this style definitely works at my level of play. takes some practice, but very effective.
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On October 10 2011 01:54 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 01:53 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:51 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 01:49 Pokebunny wrote:On October 10 2011 01:40 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 10 2011 01:26 TangSC wrote:On October 10 2011 00:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
I'm impressed you wrote so much on a 1 base baneling bust but... Who loses to that with 2rax lol maybe if they don't scout if you exp or not... And the title is so misleading Well Kawaii this may not be a build I would do against someone as high calibre as you. I mean I've played against slayers_Dragon and bratok and wouldn't dream of using a 14/14 bust against these guys, they'd be too likely to scout and make a wall-in at the top and secure an early-game advantage. However, SO many terran players get to high ranks because they can execute a 2rax well against macro style and very few have a response for this type of counter. So basically you're praying your opponent is really bad for this to work... This is in no way a solid build and the fact.that two bunkers means you auto loss means this build is just a coinflip allin and not a 2rax counter. Hatch first or speedling expand are way better than this. ... This. If I see a zerg go gas/pool, I hide an SCV on the map and check natural after a minute or two... this would really never work against anyone with a brain. This guide is basically "how to allin and pray your opponent sucks". Good zerg players scout around with speedlings for hidden scvs/probes, players who are good at all-in must scout actively. Eh... I don't think you can deny enough to really kill suspicion of an allin. Well you just need to keep them away from your expansion.
I think i would get suspicious and make 2 bunkers anyway, u can just salvage them you're already ahead.
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The title is so..... misleading. It should be more like, "countering a proxy 2 rax and punishing a greedy terran" 14/14 puts you so behind 1 rax FE, which is pretty common on that map.
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On October 10 2011 04:37 emc wrote:
I don't see whats wrong with the build, it's actually quite genius to baneling all-in after a failed 2-rax all-in. He never said it was effective against macro 2 rax but only strong against proxy rax and seriously aggressive 2 rax. Thing is, 2 rax is quite a dead build these days but it's still very cool to see zergs punishing terrans expecting for the 2 rax to not be countered. And his opening statement is kinda correct, because most macro zergs will try to sneak in a drone here and there but that's wrong! you gotta jump the gun like Julyzerg and not a lot of zergs are even trying that.
don't listen to the haters!
My typical response to aggressive 2 rax is usually uber defensive. my first queen spreads creep, I get two spine crawlers and edge my way to the ramp. I end up getting a macro hatch and just drone like crazy, if they invest in bunkers beyond my ramp then I get lings for busting. The macro hatch really allows you to stay ahead in worker count, so when you do break the contain you aren't very far behind and you have spine crawlers and 2 queens for any hellion or banshee transition.
A build that could potentially counter a failed 2 rax would be a two base Eco bling bust, not a 1 base baneling all in. Get your hatch up, make a few drones, cut the second queen in favor of a baneling nest, and have at it.
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Canada1866 Posts
On October 10 2011 05:15 DoctorFunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 04:37 emc wrote:
I don't see whats wrong with the build, it's actually quite genius to baneling all-in after a failed 2-rax all-in. He never said it was effective against macro 2 rax but only strong against proxy rax and seriously aggressive 2 rax. Thing is, 2 rax is quite a dead build these days but it's still very cool to see zergs punishing terrans expecting for the 2 rax to not be countered. And his opening statement is kinda correct, because most macro zergs will try to sneak in a drone here and there but that's wrong! you gotta jump the gun like Julyzerg and not a lot of zergs are even trying that.
don't listen to the haters!
My typical response to aggressive 2 rax is usually uber defensive. my first queen spreads creep, I get two spine crawlers and edge my way to the ramp. I end up getting a macro hatch and just drone like crazy, if they invest in bunkers beyond my ramp then I get lings for busting. The macro hatch really allows you to stay ahead in worker count, so when you do break the contain you aren't very far behind and you have spine crawlers and 2 queens for any hellion or banshee transition. A build that could potentially counter a failed 2 rax would be a two base Eco bling bust, not a 1 base baneling all in. Get your hatch up, make a few drones, cut the second queen in favor of a baneling nest, and have at it.
I haven't experimented too much with that style, Doc, but the method I explained has been tried and true in my experience. I'd like to see replays of your suggestion, though, so I can practice it and maybe incorporate it in this guide.
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I don't think this really deserves a thread, one-base baneling busts have been around as an active decision (as opposed to a reactive one when scouting 2rax) since beta and they're still just as all-in. Back when I was in gold league I used to baneling bust Terrans that didn't know what they were doing with 2 Rax Pressure and just win games with ease. The strategy still works at my level (diamond) and I would be surprised if it didn't work into mid-/high-masters fairly well but any manner of active scouting will deny this. Bunkers are good, one base Zerg is really weak and inflexible.
Nice to bust out in lower level Bo1-Bo3s, but it's not great at all.
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why would anyone try to be aggressive with 2 rax if you're not even trying to get your natural expo as zerg?
As far as i know 2 rax is to trying to kill the natural or at least make the zerg to build defense instead of drones. If the zerg doesnt even go for an early hatch then theres no reason to force other units than drones.
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The two rax weakness is that is has poor transitions but it is very effective at dealling economic damage to the Zerg and a Baneling Bust is an all-in attack that hopes the opposing player cannot deal with Zerglings once the wall-off is broken. Except they'll have two barracks at the wall-off...
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On October 10 2011 04:38 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 04:31 ShiZz wrote:
I was expecting some cool new Korean style with lots of muta and drop agression, fast tech and a lot of midgame planning, but I was left with a subpar replay of a bling allin against a Terran who looks like he has no clue what hes doing. Namcihr is ranked 75 in NA grand master and he's known to be in the top 16. Sorry you got the wrong impression, but it's a guide to countering the 2rax - I don't think you can get to mutas and drops in time to hold the 2rax ^^. In short, I know this guide will be incredibly helpful to those who have trouble holding against 2rax pressure.
namcihr or however you spell it is also known to be extremely cheesy and maybe not the best player... no offense
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so what do you do if he bunkers the bottom of your ramp?
no offense but that replay doesn't deserve a write-up.
namhcir would have been much better off doing what i normally see, which is bunkering the bottom of your ramp. it would force you to use the banes on the bunkers, wouldn't allow his marines to be surrounded, and ultimately, would completely negate this "strategy" you're describing. maybe if nam had played it properly but he didn't. this is like showing a strategy of how to win with a zergling runby when terran doesn't up their depot in time: it doesn't show anything about strategy, it just shows a player messing up, and the other player exploiting that mistake and winning because of it.
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Canada1866 Posts
On October 10 2011 06:27 LtCalley wrote:
so what do you do if he bunkers the bottom of your ramp?
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You have to bust it with 6 banes.
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something i've been doing against terran players that think they can do 2 rax bunker pressure against me is going double extractor trick 11 pool speedling opener. which is actually what i like to do in a lot of my zvz games, after the initial 6 zerglings you are free to make your queen, drone up til 15-16 ish drones and make an expansion. this has proven quite good for me as the lings come out before the first bunker can finish and i've also found a lot of terran players like to throw down a bunker whether or not you're even trying to expand (although why wouldn't you?)
i think this opener by Tang actually has some potential, even though it may not be a "solid" build. also in the game he uploaded this build worked VERY well since the 2 rax were proxied. if they had've been built in base then it would've been totally ineffective but in my personal opinion (which we are all entitled too) i think he responded correctly. so instead of saying this is bad or whatever (you know who you are) lets say that this is an appropriate response to a extremely proxied 2 rax bunker pressure opener, and leave it at that. lets not say players who are in top 200 NA suck (quite the opposite) and get on with your lives. it's not like any of you are paid to play this game anyway, although you might like to think you deserve to be. (which you don't with attitudes such as the ones displayed in this thread)
thanks for the write up tang 
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This wouldnt have even countered the 2 rax if the Terran did a better job.
Here is what terran should have done make 2 bunkers at the bottom of the ramp with 1 marine each after scouting the bane nest, pulled the rest of his army except the scvs to repair the bunkers to his base, built another command center and 2 more barracks and started to mass marines then get gas. He would have a production lead, be safe from a baneling bust because it would take so many to bust the first ramp then bust the Terrans base, the terran would then be free to tech. He had all the information required to make these decisions and chose not to.
Also if the Terran wasn't proxy 2 raxing or if the Zerg was going a standard hatch first the 2 rax would have killed him if he didn't delay at least one of them heavily with his drones.
The terran also could have poked more aggressively with his initial marines, but perhaps the Terran in this video didn't have the best control.
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Title isn't very accurate, not sure how 2rax loses to bane bust. Good terrans will eventually scan you if you are still on one base after aggression. Just looks like regular bane bust to me :/
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well it might work quiet well against the 2 barracks play, but a good terran will split their marines baneling safe and maybe have a bunker behind the wallin. Because the baneling bust is so rare nowadays people tend to be to lazy, but generally if you scout the baneling nest early you will prepare for a bust, its only a bit of apm spend and a bunker. The problem with the bust is that you won't have enough lings to beat the marines.
If i play zerg though i love to get the baneling nest up early only a few ressources and the terran will go into wallin mode totally overpreparing for the bust that will never come. But in generall its easy to defend if it comes to early and the terran ever heard something about were to place your bunker against a bust and how to place your marines.
But even afters month probably the most rewarding mind game you can do to a terran on ladder  .
Its just like playing random, people expect you to cheese overprepare and you are actually cheesing but macro cheese going cc first and stuff like this.
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Wow, what a waste of a thread. Everyone thinking of adopting this style, don't do it. Any terran who actually knows how to play and has experience with executing 2 rax will NOT be aggressive and will just sit back. Baneling busting a 2 raxing player is just as uncertain as baneling busting any other type of opener. The only reason it worked in this instance is because namhcir proxied his barracks halfway across the map, which makes this thread even more laughable as the "hyper-aggressive' style had nothing to do with the victory.
This is probably another instance where tang is being pompous. Honestly, on ladder everytime i play you, despite you losing eighty percent of the matches, you still have the audacity to tell me that my playstyle is incorrect and then chat channel spam me.
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On October 10 2011 08:07 Bobo012893 wrote:
Wow, what a waste of a thread. Everyone thinking of adopting this style, don't do it. Any terran who actually knows how to play and has experience with executing 2 rax will NOT be aggressive and will just sit back. Baneling busting a 2 raxing player is just as uncertain as baneling busting any other type of opener. The only reason it worked in this instance is because namhcir proxied his barracks halfway across the map, which makes this thread even more laughable as the "hyper-aggressive' style had nothing to do with the victory.
This is probably another instance where tang is being pompous. Honestly, on ladder everytime i play you, despite you losing eighty percent of the matches, you still have the audacity to tell me that my playstyle is incorrect and then chat channel spam me.
i wouldn't expect any less from someone with a sig like that
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Canada1866 Posts
Let's be friendly guys! If you don't like the build, detail exactly what terran can do to prevent it rather than insult people.
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I fail to see anything new about this.
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EPT
