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I have recently begun to run into trouble fending off Proxy 2 gates on the ladder. I am a Mid-Masters Protoss and I play as such. My issue with the particular Topic in question is when I scout the opponent last.
My Build:
quote on quote "playing standard" I.E.
9 pylon 12-13 gate, 14-15 assimilator, 17 cyber. I am also scouting on 12-13(after gate)
In the past week I have been proxy gated on Antiga Shipyard 4 times, and once on shattered temple. My issue comes in the fact that I scout them last, and they scout me first. My problem with this is that I can do the normal check my base for a proxy after I throw down my gate, but this also inevitably delays me reaching the opponent in time as well. The way the timing works out for a double 10/10 gate is that he will have 3 zealots when you have one if you are playing a standard build. If you do not scout your opponent until last he will still have a zealot advantage regardless. Even by using probes to defend you will be overwhelmed shortly.
My Thoughts:
I feel the only way to adequately prepare for this every game is to incorporate a second scout around your base, natural, and proxy locations sometime after you have thrown down your gas, as that would be the only feasible time you could discover the proxy location and have the ability to defend it properly. My problem with this suggestion is that it will delay mining/cyber timing. It may be the best trade off though considering the alternative is straight up losing.
I am interested in hearing the communities thoughts on this issue, because as of right now it feels like i'm just being bested in a game of roll the dice to scout the opponent on a large map.
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Why not just 9 scout and scout the likely proxy locations first? Do you feel you need the economic advantage from a 12/13 scout?
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I won't disagree that a 9 scout could prevent SOME losses in the situation for a double proxy 10/10 gate, but it still might not catch them in time if you do indeed scout them last again. This is assuming you do not find their proxy when you scout with 9, or if you are suggesting to scout the opponent at 9 directly, I still feel this loses to the proxy if you scout them last and they scout you first. It does not allow enough time to throw down another gate and chrono zealots to match him.
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It's a bit of an annoying game of chance in pvp sometimes. I scout on 9 and pass by as many xel'naga towers on my way that I can to try and rule out crazy proxy's, but there isn't a whole lot you can do other than scout earlier, check the middle of maps on 4 player maps for proxy's, and grab a 2nd probe to scout the immediate are around your base after you throw down your gate.
The fact that they have a small chance of winning (you have to scout them last, they have to proxy somewhat far away from your base etc.) is supposed to deter people from doing it, but it is quite annoying to lose via unluckiness.
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Well, there aren't too many good locations for most 2-gates as they will need to be relatively close to your base to get in early enough to kill you. You can take the extra time your probe will be out to scout most all of them and still send it to scout mains with time to spare (*before a stalker comes out). Also, 2-gates are taking a risk that you WON'T scout early, so by scouting early you already are taking a large step to mitigating that risk.
On 4 player maps they will also take a risk as to location. They will scout one main, then move their probe to a location that can threaten the other 2. If you are sure your opponent never actually saw your base with a probe, make sure you scout locations that are equidistant from multiple bases.
Obviously, the more you can stare at your minimap the better as well.
*edit
If you are ever micro'ing probes against a zealot, hotkey your probes and stare. The second one starts losing shields, click it and get ready to mineral walk it out of battle. Have your probes hot keyed so you can hop back to them and catch the next one under fire. With practice, this will make you MUCH more resilient vs proxy 2-gates.
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You can send all your probes to his base to attack his probes because you will have more, then chrono out as many stalkers as you can and kite all the zealots. You might need to make a pylon across the map. Then if he tries to base race you can kite the zealots all the way around the map.
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On October 05 2011 04:14 Beardedclam wrote:
You can send all your probes to his base to attack his probes because you will have more, then chrono out as many stalkers as you can and kite all the zealots. You might need to make a pylon across the map if he tries to base race so you can kite the zealots all the way around the map.
Wouldn't a good 2-gater just block his entrance with pylons then? I feel like this might not be the optimal solution.
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On October 05 2011 04:15 NtroP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:14 Beardedclam wrote:
You can send all your probes to his base to attack his probes because you will have more, then chrono out as many stalkers as you can and kite all the zealots. You might need to make a pylon across the map if he tries to base race so you can kite the zealots all the way around the map. Wouldn't a good 2-gater just block his entrance with pylons then? I feel like this might not be the optimal solution.
Well you are pretty fucked if you don't scout it. If you scout the gates then throw up more gates and use probes, but if he just runs in your base with some zealots before you scout that he is cheesing then you can send the probes. He might not have enough mineral to block his entrance and if he does that is less zealots you have to kite with your stalkers.
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If you 12 Gate scout, you check all the proxy location first. These can be very map dependent, but either you scout his proxy, or he proxied far enough that you can hold the double proxy with zealot + stalker and pulling some probes (in case you then scout him last).
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I think it's just a loss if you scout them last and they scout you first. You will be overwhelmed by the zealot numbers if you're not prepared for it.
It's just one of those luck scenarios in the game.
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As a person who has fallen to a proxy 2gate before I know the frustration.
I'm only platinum so by no means am I 100% correct on this, but I always send a 9 scout vs toss especially considering risky builds like this, I would rather give up the slight econ advantage to be a little safer against any cheese. As soon as your scout reaches the first base and you don't find them, send a second probe around your base, natural, and likely proxy locations while your scouting probe heads to the second spawn (I don't usually send this probe to the third spawn, I only do that against zerg when I'm doing FFE)
If you wish to 12-13 scout then I think using your scouting probe to scout for proxies is your only option to keep your macro as efficient as possible, you have to strike a balance between getting scouting info and checking for pylons.
*Just a thought, did your opponent send his scouting probe earlier than 9 intending to cheese? Or was it an opportunistic move after he realized you scouted the wrong direction?
I hope this helps
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On October 05 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote:
If you 12 Gate scout, you check all the proxy location first. These can be very map dependent, but either you scout his proxy, or he proxied far enough that you can hold the double proxy with zealot + stalker and pulling some probes (in case you then scout him last).
Not to play the what if game, but i'm going to play the what if game. If I do indeed check all proxy locations (we're talking a shit ton of places on a large 4 player map like antiga) He could just as easily 2 gate in his base and I scout it last and would still have an opportunity to overwhelm me with zealots if he sends them to my base. (Very weird scenario I know)
OR
Many PvP games have evolved into a gas stealing matchup in which if I am delaying the main scouting by scouting every single proxy location, I may miss an opportunity to see how his build is even developing because of the timing of his buildings and potential units.
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You actually are able to defend a blind "Proxy"-Gate on Tal'Darim/Shattered (don't know about the other 4 player maps because I vetoed them xD) as long as it's in the middle of the map.
Just get 2 Gates and Chrono out 1/2 Stalkers, then send everything towards the Gates and unpower them.
Always have 2 Pylons powering your Gateways, otherwise he's going to unpower everything!
If he's proxying inside your base you should've just scout it...
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The situation I'm talking about is where its not exactly in the middle of the map IE at the center watchtower on Antiga or Shattered or by a watchtower on Tal'Darim
The suggestions provided to attack his base with probes are not feasible considering the maps in question(Large 4 player maps). They will have comparable probe amounts by the time you reach their base and even if you do probe rush, you lose to zealots that are leftover.
You also cannot rush the proxy gates to unpower them either. He already has 1-3 zealots at this point and you will have your probes killed by these amounts of units or have unrecoverable damage done if he has proxied outside your base.
The only thing I can think of is what Geiko suggested, but even then I see flaws in that as well.
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Why don't you just scout with your pylon and gateway probe (if your pylon probe initially checked an incorrect starting location of your opponent)? You will have enough time to defend a proxy 2-gate in that case with a forge + cannons. This way you don't have to rely on finding their proxy locations. I've seen some people proxy gates in places pretty far (and weird) from my base and they can still overwhelm you if react incorrectly. You still have to scout near your base if you spot no structures at your opponents base though since it's also possible it could be a cannon rush, but if you don't spot one you can pretty much assume it is a proxy gate (and actually both reactions are the same, forge + cannons unless you scout it so early that you can respond with 2 gates of your own).
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On October 05 2011 06:39 Skyro wrote:
Why don't you just scout with your pylon and gateway probe (if your pylon probe initially checked an incorrect starting location of your opponent)? You will have enough time to defend a proxy 2-gate in that case with a forge + cannons. This way you don't have to rely on finding their proxy locations. I've seen some people proxy gates in places pretty far (and weird) from my base and they can still overwhelm you if react incorrectly. You still have to scout near your base if you spot no structures at your opponents base though since it's also possible it could be a cannon rush, but if you don't spot one you can pretty much assume it is a proxy gate (and actually both reactions are the same, forge + cannons unless you scout it so early that you can respond with 2 gates of your own).
Hmmm so you suggest scouting with my 9 pylon probe, and then scout again at 12/13 supply with my gateway probe in the event that my 9 pylon probe doesn't find the protoss on the first try? That just seems like a really big mineral loss early on to scout him for the sole purpose of seeing if hes proxy gating or cannon rushing me. I can understand if you are saying to scout my base with the gateway probe, but to scout the map with 2 probes might be a bit overkill. I could be wrong however, good input though.
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On October 05 2011 06:50 Metora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 06:39 Skyro wrote:
Why don't you just scout with your pylon and gateway probe (if your pylon probe initially checked an incorrect starting location of your opponent)? You will have enough time to defend a proxy 2-gate in that case with a forge + cannons. This way you don't have to rely on finding their proxy locations. I've seen some people proxy gates in places pretty far (and weird) from my base and they can still overwhelm you if react incorrectly. You still have to scout near your base if you spot no structures at your opponents base though since it's also possible it could be a cannon rush, but if you don't spot one you can pretty much assume it is a proxy gate (and actually both reactions are the same, forge + cannons unless you scout it so early that you can respond with 2 gates of your own). Hmmm so you suggest scouting with my 9 pylon probe, and then scout again at 12/13 supply with my gateway probe in the event that my 9 pylon probe doesn't find the protoss on the first try? That just seems like a really big mineral loss early on to scout him for the sole purpose of seeing if hes proxy gating or cannon rushing me. I can understand if you are saying to scout my base with the gateway probe, but to scout the map with 2 probes might be a bit overkill. I could be wrong however, good input though.
Yes that is what I'm suggesting. It is a mineral loss but it is a "no excuses" way of scouting. There is advantages of having a hidden probe that your opponent doesn't know about however. For example I often respond to proxy gates with forge + cannons, and then offensive cannon-rush my opponent. They may spot your initial probe and have one of their own probes follow that one, but unbeknowst to them you have another... "crouching probe, hidden cannon."
Also if you do send another probe scout at 12/13, often times you will bump into their probe scout and deduce where they are from that which allows you to send one of your probe scouts to mine if you want.
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Just 12 scout all proxy locations first; you don't need to scout his base until literally 4 minutes into the game. Any proxy will be close, anything far away will be self-nullifying, spend cb on stalkers not WG and get another gate faster than usual. 2gate 3stalker is already a good opener, meaning 1-2 style, but you can also 2-1 style it if you wanna be safer.
Your other solution is to wait for chance to swing your way, i.e., you scout them first instead of last on your next 4 PvPs
EDIT: What build order you use?
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I agree that you should be 9scouting.
You don't need to find the proxy right away. You just need to hold it off, so you just need to find his base to see that he's proxying, and you'll be able to hold it off with some good micro (and you'll have the advantage of having a few more probes, plus the fact that he needs to walk all the way into your base).
Try that a few times  Hopefully things work out better. It'll really come down to micro battles for a minute or two and you may need to pull a few probes but you should be considerably ahead if you hold it off.
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I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ;
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I find the only reliable defense aside from a 9 scout, is to really force yourself to spend a lot of time watching the mini-map, you need to try and make a judgement call on whether he's a close position spawn/cross position spawn based on the time you see him scouting you so you can then scout him as early as possible by repathing your own probe - obviously this wont guaratee success but it tends to help
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On October 05 2011 07:06 Metora wrote:
I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ;
Hmm might require higher level assistance on this one but I think since 4gate dies to a single sentry (and 4gate is suboptimal build) you should begin opening differently (I hate to say that because we all treasure our comfy openers). I suggest that whatever you do, get earlier cyber core (I used to get mine on 16 and then get probe then zealot after core was down) so that stalkers are available earlier, and get a 2nd gate as standard (look up a 2 or 3 stalker opener). Also, I think as long as you 12 scout cannon rush locations then gate proxy locations then enemy base, you can skip the zealot and that will save you some resources.
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On October 05 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote:
If you 12 Gate scout, you check all the proxy location first. These can be very map dependent, but either you scout his proxy, or he proxied far enough that you can hold the double proxy with zealot + stalker and pulling some probes (in case you then scout him last).
Okay, so I scout it - now what? How do I hold until my 2nd gate is done? Do i run my probes around, or do I fight with probes or what? Do I stop building probes? continue taking gas?
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On October 05 2011 08:35 NorthernIrelandGS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote:
If you 12 Gate scout, you check all the proxy location first. These can be very map dependent, but either you scout his proxy, or he proxied far enough that you can hold the double proxy with zealot + stalker and pulling some probes (in case you then scout him last). Okay, so I scout it - now what? How do I hold until my 2nd gate is done? Do i run my probes around, or do I fight with probes or what? Do I stop building probes? continue taking gas?
Def cut probes for military units and yes, run probes around. Smart base layout will already help a bit, but you have to micro probes/zeal against zeals properly, and that just takes practice I think.
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If you're opponent scouts you first, you can know where his base just by normal scouting patterns (wouldn't work if they proxy in the middle of the map), but knowing when the probe comes into your base can easily tell you that your opponent scouted you first. You can then either send your scouting probe to the most likely location, or send another probe out to scout for proxies or their base.
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On October 05 2011 07:06 Metora wrote:
I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ;
If you want to scout later for your build, you have to accept it opens up vulnerabilities that you have to cover for in other ways. In this case - gate-scouting means you have to check proxy locations around your base before you can head towards the bases.
You make a tradeoff to be able to scout later.
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On October 05 2011 04:15 NtroP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:14 Beardedclam wrote:
You can send all your probes to his base to attack his probes because you will have more, then chrono out as many stalkers as you can and kite all the zealots. You might need to make a pylon across the map if he tries to base race so you can kite the zealots all the way around the map. Wouldn't a good 2-gater just block his entrance with pylons then? I feel like this might not be the optimal solution.
There is no way he has that much money without cutting a ton of zealot production.
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On October 05 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 07:06 Metora wrote:
I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ; If you want to scout later for your build, you have to accept it opens up vulnerabilities that you have to cover for in other ways. In this case - gate-scouting means you have to check proxy locations around your base before you can head towards the bases. You make a tradeoff to be able to scout later.
Mainly this. By the time you send a gateway scout out, the proxy buildings have already gone up. Map dependent, you need to scout your base, and the natural area. In my case, I put my first pylon on maps where the ramp is close to the nexus in a place where if something comes up the ramp, I will see it, even if only for a moment. 2 player maps I scout my base and the nat, 4 player I place pylon with vision of the ramp and on LT you don't really need to scout your base because of the close positions thing. You'll know just by counting probes.
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9 scouting helps alot, however 9 scouting doesnt eliminate the posibility to lose to proxy gates on some retarded maps like Nerazim Crypt (need more vetos). i never skip my first zealot on small 4 player maps or 4 player maps with close spawns since you pretty much autolose to a boxer type proxy (wher your opoent sneaks in to your base and only looks at your mins so you are unable to see his probe.) if you skiped your zealot, its even next to imposible to hold off the peoxy.
you must make sure you scout the watchtowers on the smaller maps as if you dont, you can end up in certain senarios where you do nothing wrong and still lose to a proxy gate.
eg. on Nerazim Crypt, your oppoent proxys in the middle at 10 supply, you spawned clockwise to your opoent and you scout anticlockwise therefore scoutig him last. he also scouts in the wrong direction but sent his scout out before you, so your probes never get in sight of each other. he builds zealots and leaves them in the middle while you tech up and get your core. once he scouts two mains, he knows that you are in the last position and sends his zealots there. at this point he has 3 zealots and u have a zealot and a stalker with a sentry on the way adn maybe some more gates. in this case, its pretty much an auto lose to the proxy gates.
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On October 05 2011 08:35 NorthernIrelandGS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote:
If you 12 Gate scout, you check all the proxy location first. These can be very map dependent, but either you scout his proxy, or he proxied far enough that you can hold the double proxy with zealot + stalker and pulling some probes (in case you then scout him last). Okay, so I scout it - now what? How do I hold until my 2nd gate is done? Do i run my probes around, or do I fight with probes or what? Do I stop building probes? continue taking gas?
Cut probes, second gateway asap, and third gateway when you have extra money.
If he engages with only one zealot, surround it with probes and kill it (you can do this without losing any probes if you micro correctly). Else he has to wait for 3 zealots, at which point you will have 2 zealots of your own. You hold that off by pulling probes and microing your zealots. From then on he should remain at approx 1 zealot advantage if you scouted the proxy fast enough.
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I find that, in addition, it is good practise in PvP to spend no more than 2 chronoboosts on probes until you are ABSOLUTELY sure he is not chronoboosting. Spending chronoboost on a gateway helps you - slowly - overcome his innate zealot advantage.
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On October 05 2011 17:52 Dhalphir wrote:
I find that, in addition, it is good practise in PvP to spend no more than 2 chronoboosts on probes until you are ABSOLUTELY sure he is not chronoboosting. Spending chronoboost on a gateway helps you - slowly - overcome his innate zealot advantage.
You realize he has chronoboost too? lol. And he only uses one on probes o.o
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On October 05 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 07:06 Metora wrote:
I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ; If you want to scout later for your build, you have to accept it opens up vulnerabilities that you have to cover for in other ways. In this case - gate-scouting means you have to check proxy locations around your base before you can head towards the bases. You make a tradeoff to be able to scout later.
The scenario I would pose to the suggestion you have provided is that say I do 9 scout. I scout each base individually first, and I find him last again. He also scouts me first in this scenario. He still has the opportunity to proxy me and beat me before I have adequate time to prepare for the 3 zealot to 1 zealot advantage. It is much more manageable than the 12 pylon scout I will give you that. My question is that should I be incorporating an in base and natural scout for proxies after my gas has been thrown down? It just seems like it's a lot of mineral loss early that could potentially cause me to lose to someone who is performing a perfect 4 gate. Like warping in at 5:39, I could see the mineral loss as important, I could however be compeltely wrong. If anyone has suggestions let me know, I am open to suggestions, I am always looking to improve and I will not make the mistake of thinking I am better than I am. I have been able to fend off proxy gate rushes before, but I feel mostly those have been attributed to lack of execution on my opponents behalf.
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Do you really need to scout early game PvP? I generally don't until after my assimilator goes down (to be fair my assimilator goes down earlier than normal), and I use that Probe to first check for any proxy/cannon cheese, then I move forward to scout my opponent in his base (and if his scout is in my base, it can tip me off to what position he is in). Sometimes I make it there before the Stalker, and even if I don't I know he is opening somewhat standard getting a Stalker (ie he has gas and a Cybercore). Beyond that I will use my first Stalker and then Observer to scout.
Most people will deny any useful information with the Stalker anyways, you'll get in to see 1 gas, 1 gate, 1 cyber, and two chronos on the Nexus. If they try to cut corners you might see more chronos on the Nexus (or them going down the Cyber) an additional gas, ect. I never let my opponent know anything until the scouting Probe has been cleared from my base.
But in the end, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you scout on 9 sacrificing economy in order to possibly get the benefit of more information, or scout on 12 for more economy with a smaller chance to get information.
In my opinion, don't even play that game since nothing is guaranteed. Just make sure they aren't cheesing (proxy gates or cannons) and then scout with an Observer. There really isn't that many crazy things Protoss can do beyond that (unless you do a build that is at risk to a 4 gate), and you'll already have an Observer in case of DT's.
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On October 05 2011 04:14 Beardedclam wrote:
You can send all your probes to his base to attack his probes because you will have more, then chrono out as many stalkers as you can and kite all the zealots. You might need to make a pylon across the map. Then if he tries to base race you can kite the zealots all the way around the map.
You can umpower his gw and mineral walk your probe to kill the 1 stalker with them ( you umpowerd the gw's so only 1 stalker should be out ) and you should have minerals for about 5 lots to ether kill his probes or kill his base faster if he tries to race ( lol ) with 1 stalker and probes.
I for one am not sure what to do, i sometime manage to defend it by boosting 3 stalker and killing lots with probe micro but its really hard, most of the time if you scout at 12 and you scout it last you will loss imo.
Then again i 15 scout in pvp usually and i don't see 2 proxy gate to often... its kinda weak tbh vs anyone who 9 scouts or lucky 12 scouts.
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On October 06 2011 02:47 BronzeKnee wrote:
Do you really need to scout early game PvP?
People can basically only tell you what they prefer themselves. My opinion is no, you don't have to, just...
-12 scout, check cannon proxy locations, then check gate proxy locations, then check starting locations.
You gotta get a read on:
- Gate timing (compare his gate with yours, or if you get there late, compare his core with yours)
- Core timing (stay in base until core is done to see if he boosts wg and stalker or just wg)
- Probe count (Gate timing can look similar but if you scout one gate in base and only a few probes, somethings up - theres a ladder build that is proxy gate but builds a gate in base after cutting probes to make it look like it was a normal timed gate so no proxy, but probe count doesn't lie)
- Chronoboost amount compared to yours, make your own reads on this since in 1.4 chronoboost uses are less telling
- Skipped zealot or not? Skipped means better econ generally, including gas (this is more vague for me still since it's a 1.4 thing)
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EPT
