EPT[H] PvP Standard vs Proxy 2 gate, scouted last - Page 2
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On October 05 2011 07:06 Metora wrote: I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ; Hmm might require higher level assistance on this one but I think since 4gate dies to a single sentry (and 4gate is suboptimal build) you should begin opening differently (I hate to say that because we all treasure our comfy openers). I suggest that whatever you do, get earlier cyber core (I used to get mine on 16 and then get probe then zealot after core was down) so that stalkers are available earlier, and get a 2nd gate as standard (look up a 2 or 3 stalker opener). Also, I think as long as you 12 scout cannon rush locations then gate proxy locations then enemy base, you can skip the zealot and that will save you some resources. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote: If you 12 Gate scout, you check all the proxy location first. These can be very map dependent, but either you scout his proxy, or he proxied far enough that you can hold the double proxy with zealot + stalker and pulling some probes (in case you then scout him last). Okay, so I scout it - now what? How do I hold until my 2nd gate is done? Do i run my probes around, or do I fight with probes or what? Do I stop building probes? continue taking gas? | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On October 05 2011 08:35 NorthernIrelandGS wrote: Okay, so I scout it - now what? How do I hold until my 2nd gate is done? Do i run my probes around, or do I fight with probes or what? Do I stop building probes? continue taking gas? Def cut probes for military units and yes, run probes around. Smart base layout will already help a bit, but you have to micro probes/zeal against zeals properly, and that just takes practice I think. | ||
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Tepex
United States5 Posts
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On October 05 2011 07:06 Metora wrote: I've almost always been exclusively scouting on 12 after the gateway in PvP. It has worked out nicer with the timings of my build, and provides a great foundation for an extremely strong 4 gate push. To answer the build order; 9 pylon 12 gate 14 assim 16 pylon 17 cyber 19-20 zealot ; If you want to scout later for your build, you have to accept it opens up vulnerabilities that you have to cover for in other ways. In this case - gate-scouting means you have to check proxy locations around your base before you can head towards the bases. You make a tradeoff to be able to scout later. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:15 NtroP wrote: Wouldn't a good 2-gater just block his entrance with pylons then? I feel like this might not be the optimal solution. There is no way he has that much money without cutting a ton of zealot production. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On October 05 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: If you want to scout later for your build, you have to accept it opens up vulnerabilities that you have to cover for in other ways. In this case - gate-scouting means you have to check proxy locations around your base before you can head towards the bases. You make a tradeoff to be able to scout later. Mainly this. By the time you send a gateway scout out, the proxy buildings have already gone up. Map dependent, you need to scout your base, and the natural area. In my case, I put my first pylon on maps where the ramp is close to the nexus in a place where if something comes up the ramp, I will see it, even if only for a moment. 2 player maps I scout my base and the nat, 4 player I place pylon with vision of the ramp and on LT you don't really need to scout your base because of the close positions thing. You'll know just by counting probes. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
you must make sure you scout the watchtowers on the smaller maps as if you dont, you can end up in certain senarios where you do nothing wrong and still lose to a proxy gate. eg. on Nerazim Crypt, your oppoent proxys in the middle at 10 supply, you spawned clockwise to your opoent and you scout anticlockwise therefore scoutig him last. he also scouts in the wrong direction but sent his scout out before you, so your probes never get in sight of each other. he builds zealots and leaves them in the middle while you tech up and get your core. once he scouts two mains, he knows that you are in the last position and sends his zealots there. at this point he has 3 zealots and u have a zealot and a stalker with a sentry on the way adn maybe some more gates. in this case, its pretty much an auto lose to the proxy gates. | ||
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Geiko
France1978 Posts
On October 05 2011 08:35 NorthernIrelandGS wrote: Okay, so I scout it - now what? How do I hold until my 2nd gate is done? Do i run my probes around, or do I fight with probes or what? Do I stop building probes? continue taking gas? Cut probes, second gateway asap, and third gateway when you have extra money. If he engages with only one zealot, surround it with probes and kill it (you can do this without losing any probes if you micro correctly). Else he has to wait for 3 zealots, at which point you will have 2 zealots of your own. You hold that off by pulling probes and microing your zealots. From then on he should remain at approx 1 zealot advantage if you scouted the proxy fast enough. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
On October 05 2011 17:52 Dhalphir wrote: I find that, in addition, it is good practise in PvP to spend no more than 2 chronoboosts on probes until you are ABSOLUTELY sure he is not chronoboosting. Spending chronoboost on a gateway helps you - slowly - overcome his innate zealot advantage. You realize he has chronoboost too? lol. And he only uses one on probes o.o | ||
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Metora
United States25 Posts
On October 05 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: If you want to scout later for your build, you have to accept it opens up vulnerabilities that you have to cover for in other ways. In this case - gate-scouting means you have to check proxy locations around your base before you can head towards the bases. You make a tradeoff to be able to scout later. The scenario I would pose to the suggestion you have provided is that say I do 9 scout. I scout each base individually first, and I find him last again. He also scouts me first in this scenario. He still has the opportunity to proxy me and beat me before I have adequate time to prepare for the 3 zealot to 1 zealot advantage. It is much more manageable than the 12 pylon scout I will give you that. My question is that should I be incorporating an in base and natural scout for proxies after my gas has been thrown down? It just seems like it's a lot of mineral loss early that could potentially cause me to lose to someone who is performing a perfect 4 gate. Like warping in at 5:39, I could see the mineral loss as important, I could however be compeltely wrong. If anyone has suggestions let me know, I am open to suggestions, I am always looking to improve and I will not make the mistake of thinking I am better than I am. I have been able to fend off proxy gate rushes before, but I feel mostly those have been attributed to lack of execution on my opponents behalf. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5221 Posts
Most people will deny any useful information with the Stalker anyways, you'll get in to see 1 gas, 1 gate, 1 cyber, and two chronos on the Nexus. If they try to cut corners you might see more chronos on the Nexus (or them going down the Cyber) an additional gas, ect. I never let my opponent know anything until the scouting Probe has been cleared from my base. But in the end, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you scout on 9 sacrificing economy in order to possibly get the benefit of more information, or scout on 12 for more economy with a smaller chance to get information. In my opinion, don't even play that game since nothing is guaranteed. Just make sure they aren't cheesing (proxy gates or cannons) and then scout with an Observer. There really isn't that many crazy things Protoss can do beyond that (unless you do a build that is at risk to a 4 gate), and you'll already have an Observer in case of DT's. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:14 Beardedclam wrote: You can send all your probes to his base to attack his probes because you will have more, then chrono out as many stalkers as you can and kite all the zealots. You might need to make a pylon across the map. Then if he tries to base race you can kite the zealots all the way around the map. You can umpower his gw and mineral walk your probe to kill the 1 stalker with them ( you umpowerd the gw's so only 1 stalker should be out ) and you should have minerals for about 5 lots to ether kill his probes or kill his base faster if he tries to race ( lol ) with 1 stalker and probes. I for one am not sure what to do, i sometime manage to defend it by boosting 3 stalker and killing lots with probe micro but its really hard, most of the time if you scout at 12 and you scout it last you will loss imo. Then again i 15 scout in pvp usually and i don't see 2 proxy gate to often... its kinda weak tbh vs anyone who 9 scouts or lucky 12 scouts. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On October 06 2011 02:47 BronzeKnee wrote: Do you really need to scout early game PvP? People can basically only tell you what they prefer themselves. My opinion is no, you don't have to, just... -12 scout, check cannon proxy locations, then check gate proxy locations, then check starting locations. You gotta get a read on: - Gate timing (compare his gate with yours, or if you get there late, compare his core with yours) - Core timing (stay in base until core is done to see if he boosts wg and stalker or just wg) - Probe count (Gate timing can look similar but if you scout one gate in base and only a few probes, somethings up - theres a ladder build that is proxy gate but builds a gate in base after cutting probes to make it look like it was a normal timed gate so no proxy, but probe count doesn't lie) - Chronoboost amount compared to yours, make your own reads on this since in 1.4 chronoboost uses are less telling - Skipped zealot or not? Skipped means better econ generally, including gas (this is more vague for me still since it's a 1.4 thing) | ||
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