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funny how people think 4ht templar counter 20 infestors.
ever thought of getting 20 hightemplar too?
its like build 2 corruptor against 6 colossi and than saying colossi effing op nerf!
cause thats exactly what happened here with infestors.
Now the only powerunit of zerg that can decide games is taken away, or at least nerfed really badly, because terrans and protoss are too bad to use their spellcaster properly.
We zergs had to cry almost a year until blizzard helped us. we had to change our style, make new strategies, but still we were weaker.
Than infestor upgrade.
Than toss and terran cried like little bitches
1 month later infestor nerf HERP DERP
learn to play you f***ing noobs
User was temp banned for this post.
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^ how have I never seen you in any tournaments?
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There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong.
Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well.
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Come on guys...you really expect for someone to be able to click select 20 times faster than some that click selects 4 times? Try and do it with each arm at the same time and see the difference....XD come on....Its not that they are bad at spells but its pure down how long it takes to click 4 times and how long it takes to click 20 times.
Seriously try it XD...i am laughing myself as i do this with the hand atm..this is joke XD
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On September 11 2011 20:46 Coopa826 wrote:
funny how people think 4ht templar counter 20 infestors.
ever thought of getting 20 hightemplar too?
its like build 2 corruptor against 6 colossi and than saying colossi effing op nerf!
cause thats exactly what happened here with infestors.
Now the only powerunit of zerg that can decide games is taken away, or at least nerfed really badly, because terrans and protoss are too bad to use their spellcaster properly.
We zergs had to cry almost a year until blizzard helped us. we had to change our style, make new strategies, but still we were weaker.
Than infestor upgrade.
Than toss and terran cried like little bitches
1 month later infestor nerf HERP DERP
learn to play you f***ing noobs
It's the same thing with HT and ghosts.
First terrans make max 1-3 ghosts and then they just die to HTs = toss imba.
Then terrans learn to make 6-10 ghosts and suddenly HTs cant do shit.
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Come on guys...you really expect for someone to be able to click select 20 times faster than some that click selects 4 times? Try and do it with each arm at the same time and see the difference....XD come on....Its not that they are bad at spells but its pure down how long it takes to click 4 times and how long it takes to click 20 times.
Seriously try it XD...i am laughing myself as i do this with the hand atm..this is joke XD
So Infestor goes like this:
Fungal click ..... wait ..... wait .... wait .... click .... wait .... wait ... click and so on.
High templar goes like this:
Movecommand/shiftclick feedback clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick rape gg
why dont you learn to use high templar? u never did it before and you expect to handle that spell perfectly by practicing it once?
Herp derp i cant play anything else but stalker colossus herp so pls nerf infestor herp derp
same with "colossus stalker protoss player" complaining about mutas being op ......
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On September 11 2011 21:45 Sotamursu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 20:46 Coopa826 wrote:
funny how people think 4ht templar counter 20 infestors.
ever thought of getting 20 hightemplar too?
its like build 2 corruptor against 6 colossi and than saying colossi effing op nerf!
cause thats exactly what happened here with infestors.
Now the only powerunit of zerg that can decide games is taken away, or at least nerfed really badly, because terrans and protoss are too bad to use their spellcaster properly.
We zergs had to cry almost a year until blizzard helped us. we had to change our style, make new strategies, but still we were weaker.
Than infestor upgrade.
Than toss and terran cried like little bitches
1 month later infestor nerf HERP DERP
learn to play you f***ing noobs It's the same thing with HT and ghosts. First terrans make max 1-3 ghosts and then they just die to HTs = toss imba. Then terrans learn to make 6-10 ghosts and suddenly HTs cant do shit.
you can tell me all you want...but here are the facts.
ghost comes out aerlier than ht.
it comes out with emp. no research needed for emp.
cost difference is huge.
ghost moves faster and therefore has a higher survival rate.
ghost got a larger targeting range.
ghost dont target, area effect
ghost can cloar and strike.
And finally the win rate of terran over toss is a huge difference.
Terran is the longest most successfull unit in sc2 without a doubt.
The win rate of terran is over around 60%, toss is about 32% and zerg is about 53%.
How many Toss are in GSL? i think about 4, how many terrans and zerg XD?
So to say toss is op by ignoring all the numbers and then call people noob. Are you trying to call MC a noob too? MC who cant stop a 111? Is Toss still op? =)
EDIT >> here are the right numbers http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png
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On September 11 2011 21:47 Coopa826 wrote:Show nested quote +
Come on guys...you really expect for someone to be able to click select 20 times faster than some that click selects 4 times? Try and do it with each arm at the same time and see the difference....XD come on....Its not that they are bad at spells but its pure down how long it takes to click 4 times and how long it takes to click 20 times.
Seriously try it XD...i am laughing myself as i do this with the hand atm..this is joke XD
So Infestor goes like this: Fungal click ..... wait ..... wait .... wait .... click .... wait .... wait ... click and so on. High templar goes like this: Movecommand/shiftclick feedback clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick rape gg why dont you learn to use high templar? u never did it before and you expect to handle that spell perfectly by practicing it once? Herp derp i cant play anything else but stalker colossus herp so pls nerf infestor herp derp same with "colossus stalker protoss player" complaining about mutas being op ......
frantically mathematically and playing the odds probabilyty the chance the HT gets past 4 clicks before death, falls very fast XD
you give me the 20 infestors and i would love for u to beat me with 4 HTs. Not unless i got for a toilet break XD
i cant believe u r actully saying that someone that click 20 can click afster than someone that does 4...this is helerious stuff i tell ya
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On September 11 2011 21:21 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong. Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well.
Zealots take a very large number of fungals to kill. In addition, with charge they will often be spread out quite alot as they dart in to engage - if infestors are in front, they will die, and if infestors are in the back fungal is not cost effective vs zealots. And as long as archons can sit in the back and do their damage, they are worth their while. Roaches and archons have similar range, and zealots to tank the damage will make the archons serve the same purpose as the colossi does in the collo/stalker ball. You need NP, a good surround or very good macro to beat this - and with protoss players learning to macro the ladder is not likely. Surrounds can be worked around from the protoss player too, leaving NP or death, I've been using this on my smurf account quite a lot and it completely wrecks zergs unless they go for a large number of infestors with NP - by right the counter to zealot/archon. But remove NP and this will no longer be the case.
I'm not saying this becomes unbeatable, but it will certainly takes its place among the large number of strong timing attack oportunities that P and T will now get vs zerg. All of which require a different response, and all of which can be hidden until the last moment. NP and fungal gave zerg a way to not rely so much on scouting. Much like for example a terran can go marine/tank and be reasonably fine, and a protoss can go gateway heavy with HT support and be reasonably fine, a zerg could go ling/infestor or roach/infestor vs a protoss and be reasonably fine. I quite frankly fear that we will return to the early days of SC2 with this change, where a zerg simply HAS to wait until the very last second to make their army, because every situation will require a specific response. This might be what the race should be (reactive and whatnot), but there are a few too many situations where this will mean for a nice and swift automatic loss that you could only really avoid by guessing correctly.
And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
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On September 11 2011 22:57 Thraundil wrote:
And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
I'm sorry, this doesn't work at all. There's no way you can get close to his infestor count with your HT count. And yes, 4 infestors can kill your entire army. 8 fungals will erase 100 supply of units, I've had it happen countless times. The AE is large and you can't move away, and fungaled units can't take advantage of their range advantage over roaches, allowing the roaches to move in and rape face.
1. Zerg always has (and is designed to always have) more resources than you.
2. You need sentries, which eat up a lot of gas. If you don't have sentries, even if your HTs explode every single infestor he has before they cast a single spell, you're still getting annihilated. Roaches have basically the same durability (15 less HP, but armor applies to all of it and they regen in combat) as a stalker, only 15% less DPS, (against armored, they actually do less DPS against unarmored) and cost half. Zealots do even worse against roaches than stalkers. The primary problem with roaches is larva availability to morph large numbers of them, but if you've made a lot of infestors to his HTs, it no longer becomes a problem.
3. HTs are incredibly slow. I can tell when people don't play Protoss because they constantly suggest strats that ignore this. You cannot send your HTs out alone to try and preemptively land their spells, like you can with ghosts or infestors. They are way, WAY too goddamn slow for this to work. If you try this, the Zerg can best case just move his infestors back out of range and send some roaches to pick them off, worst case sent in 3 sacrificial infestors to fungal/die and erase your entire HT blob. You must move your army with your HTs which exposes it to fungal and NP. It's not like ghosts with EMP that can charge straight at the Protoss army and get the EMP off on the templar before dying, this works because the HTs are too slow to get away. Infestors on creep are faster than stalkers, you cannot get feedback off on infestors against anyone not retarded without your army supporting them, which gives them plenty of opportunity to spam their spells. Especially NP, which you can't prevent with feedback at all.
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On September 11 2011 22:57 Thraundil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 21:21 Huntz wrote:There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong. Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well. Zealots take a very large number of fungals to kill. In addition, with charge they will often be spread out quite alot as they dart in to engage - if infestors are in front, they will die, and if infestors are in the back fungal is not cost effective vs zealots. And as long as archons can sit in the back and do their damage, they are worth their while. Roaches and archons have similar range, and zealots to tank the damage will make the archons serve the same purpose as the colossi does in the collo/stalker ball. You need NP, a good surround or very good macro to beat this - and with protoss players learning to macro the ladder is not likely. Surrounds can be worked around from the protoss player too, leaving NP or death, I've been using this on my smurf account quite a lot and it completely wrecks zergs unless they go for a large number of infestors with NP - by right the counter to zealot/archon. But remove NP and this will no longer be the case. I'm not saying this becomes unbeatable, but it will certainly takes its place among the large number of strong timing attack oportunities that P and T will now get vs zerg. All of which require a different response, and all of which can be hidden until the last moment. NP and fungal gave zerg a way to not rely so much on scouting. Much like for example a terran can go marine/tank and be reasonably fine, and a protoss can go gateway heavy with HT support and be reasonably fine, a zerg could go ling/infestor or roach/infestor vs a protoss and be reasonably fine. I quite frankly fear that we will return to the early days of SC2 with this change, where a zerg simply HAS to wait until the very last second to make their army, because every situation will require a specific response. This might be what the race should be (reactive and whatnot), but there are a few too many situations where this will mean for a nice and swift automatic loss that you could only really avoid by guessing correctly. And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
jeez man...
I can come up with a similar set of circumbstances....
At the end the statistic dont lie...
we as toss are at the very buttom level of the wining rate. The gap betwene toss and zerg is large and toss and terran well, you know that now.....
Blink is getting nerfed. A blink thats very ussefull against a 111.
I am getting a buff for a immortal thats gonna make my job not any easier vs 111 cos i can do much much better with blink vs 111 rathr than immortal.
And yet do you hear me going bananas over it? No. I am still trying my ass off even when i cant go lower than the bottom. XD
Try. Adapt, Change. If you think half a minute later blink is not a big problem or a big deal for toss well vs a 111.....
Dont throw the towell before the match starts
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On September 11 2011 22:57 Thraundil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 21:21 Huntz wrote:There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong. Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well. Zealots take a very large number of fungals to kill. In addition, with charge they will often be spread out quite alot as they dart in to engage - if infestors are in front, they will die, and if infestors are in the back fungal is not cost effective vs zealots. And as long as archons can sit in the back and do their damage, they are worth their while. Roaches and archons have similar range, and zealots to tank the damage will make the archons serve the same purpose as the colossi does in the collo/stalker ball. You need NP, a good surround or very good macro to beat this - and with protoss players learning to macro the ladder is not likely. Surrounds can be worked around from the protoss player too, leaving NP or death, I've been using this on my smurf account quite a lot and it completely wrecks zergs unless they go for a large number of infestors with NP - by right the counter to zealot/archon. But remove NP and this will no longer be the case. I'm not saying this becomes unbeatable, but it will certainly takes its place among the large number of strong timing attack oportunities that P and T will now get vs zerg. All of which require a different response, and all of which can be hidden until the last moment. NP and fungal gave zerg a way to not rely so much on scouting. Much like for example a terran can go marine/tank and be reasonably fine, and a protoss can go gateway heavy with HT support and be reasonably fine, a zerg could go ling/infestor or roach/infestor vs a protoss and be reasonably fine. I quite frankly fear that we will return to the early days of SC2 with this change, where a zerg simply HAS to wait until the very last second to make their army, because every situation will require a specific response. This might be what the race should be (reactive and whatnot), but there are a few too many situations where this will mean for a nice and swift automatic loss that you could only really avoid by guessing correctly. And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
^^This
Couldn't say it better myself !! You also have to account for the NP nerf affecting the ZvT matchup. Before a meching terran had to consider the fact that if you made a lot of thors I can neural them and let me tell you thor is a good counter to thor, but now all terran has to do is harass with BFH, siege some tanks for defense and mass thors, once Terran gets a critical mass of thors the zerg is likely dead without neural as nothing in the ground or air can destroy them and broodlords would not kill that many that fast (if you ever get the chance to get a hive), specially if a competent terran starts to focus fire the blords.
I know infestors are kind OP right now, even though I've seen toss adapting way better now to the ling/infestor comp by using chargelot/archon so I guess we need to let the game develop a lot more before doing all these changes but the fungal nerf is ok as now you have to kill them with things other than fungal so is a bit more fair.
But I fear the days of mass roach/corruptor ZvP are upon us once again and makes my heart cry 
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Guys! Especially you protoss types.
I want fungal growth to be nerfed! I absolutely do. I hate how dependant zerg is on one single unit (you guessed it - infestors). They should and will be nerfed with the fungal growth, because its far too powerful in masses as it is.
But you guys HAVE to agree that the neural parasite change is retarded.
In exchange I will agree (as I already said) that high templars are not as strong as they maybe should be. I believe they are made "weak" on purpose since they morph into archons which are a very strong bonus unit. This is blizzards fault. But you absolutely have to agree that "softremoving" neural parasite will send zerg straight to the bottom (where you complain protoss is at the moment) - and you simply cant argue for balance, and then find that OK at the same time. NP is the counter to massive units. Oh no! They serve their purpose - nerf nerf. This is NOT the correct solution.
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worst case sent in 3 sacrificial infestors to fungal/die and erase your entire HT blob.
what possible reason is there to EVER keep your HT in a blob... AAAWW QQ I PLAY LIKE A NOOB THEN LOSE QQ
Especially NP, which you can't prevent with feedback at all. I am boggled how consistently protoss in these threads ignore phoenix as a response to maaasss infestor w NP...and before u say that fungal counters that, learn to do some basic spreading of your units and get back to me. as far as opportunity cost, 1 cronoed stargate gets u 5 phoenix pretty quick, while stargate is pretty much never bad lategame pvz as voids counter zerg t3 basically singlehandedly.
#EDIT I aslo fail to see how protoss player decided that the best formation for a lategame army is a BALL (the formation your units form with ZERO micro) as opposed to and ARC, which accomplishes as good or better surface area while also spreading your units vs fungal... but oh wait, that takes micro beyond 1GfSHIFTclickclickclickclickclick
User was warned for this post
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On September 12 2011 01:21 Thraundil wrote:
Guys! Especially you protoss types.
I want fungal growth to be nerfed! I absolutely do. I hate how dependant zerg is on one single unit (you guessed it - infestors). They should and will be nerfed with the fungal growth, because its far too powerful in masses as it is.
But you guys HAVE to agree that the neural parasite change is retarded.
In exchange I will agree (as I already said) that high templars are not as strong as they maybe should be. I believe they are made "weak" on purpose since they morph into archons which are a very strong bonus unit. This is blizzards fault. But you absolutely have to agree that "softremoving" neural parasite will send zerg straight to the bottom (where you complain protoss is at the moment) - and you simply cant argue for balance, and then find that OK at the same time. NP is the counter to massive units. Oh no! They serve their purpose - nerf nerf. This is NOT the correct solution.
i understand and partially agree. The point is that i believe Blizz wants zerg to start adding ultras perhaps in convo with somthing, maybe evne infestors....I believe this is the reason for the buff of ultra and nerf of neutral parasite...one things is for sure...Blizz wnts zerg to use more ultras and be less dependant on infestors...
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On September 12 2011 01:42 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:
I am boggled how consistently protoss in these threads ignore phoenix as a response to maaasss infestor w NP...and before u say that fungal counters that, learn to do some basic spreading of your units and get back to me. as far as opportunity cost, 1 cronoed stargate gets u 5 phoenix pretty quick, while stargate is pretty much never bad lategame pvz as voids counter zerg t3 basically singlehandedly.
#EDIT I aslo fail to see how protoss player decided that the best formation for a lategame army is a BALL (the formation your units form with ZERO micro) as opposed to and ARC, which accomplishes as good or better surface area while also spreading your units vs fungal... but oh wait, that takes micro beyond 1GfSHIFTclickclickclickclickclick
"Spreading your units" isn't going to work too well if he has 15-20 infestors and you invested in phoenixes instead of HTs or colossi to counter. He can mass shit fungal everywhere, and doesn't need to catch more than 3-4 phoenixes at a time to easily shut them all down. Or he can just spawn 40 infested terrans, your phoenixes will melt in seconds.
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Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
Considering Infestors cost more and take longer to build than HT, I don't understand how people can just totally downplay how hard actually GETTING 20 infestors is.
Think about this, if I have 20 infestors and you only have 4 HT, your army should be MASSIVELY bigger than mine. Split your damn army, drop a few storms and macro harder. Send a small pack of fast units like chargelots on a flank to kill infestors. Either he wastes units or fungals taking care of the infestor assassin squads, or he uses them on your army and loses his infestors. Infestors die super fast and easy to ANYTHING. You just have to position your army better and not QQ when you get outmacroed.
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On September 12 2011 02:57 Reithan wrote:
Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
Considering Infestors cost more and take longer to build than HT, I don't understand how people can just totally downplay how hard actually GETTING 20 infestors is.
Think about this, if I have 20 infestors and you only have 4 HT, your army should be MASSIVELY bigger than mine. Split your damn army, drop a few storms and macro harder. Send a small pack of fast units like chargelots on a flank to kill infestors. Either he wastes units or fungals taking care of the infestor assassin squads, or he uses them on your army and loses his infestors. Infestors die super fast and easy to ANYTHING. You just have to position your army better and not QQ when you get outmacroed.
I never said it was easy. If it was easy, Protoss would be winning 0% of their games, not 30%. The issue with the infestors is it's a huge ticking clock. Every second the game goes allows the Zerg to increase their infestor count until they eventually have enough that nothing you do matters anymore. They result in Protoss having no late game against Zerg whatsoever. Combine that with the fact that they also have no early game, and they completely rely on midgame 2-base timing attacks or taking a really risky fast third and trying to close the game out there. If Zerg saturates a fourth, well it doesn't matter anymore if you have a fourth too, or even a fifth, game is over, you lose.
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On September 12 2011 02:57 Reithan wrote:
Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
That's not true at all. ZeNEXYong explored using Phoenix to break NP against Nerchio in the TL Open final game. It's a very viable strategy that Protoss have only just barely began to explore and now WHOOP guess we can chuck that strategy out the window since nobody will bother researching NP any more.
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Canada25 Posts
On September 12 2011 02:57 Reithan wrote:
Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
Considering Infestors cost more and take longer to build than HT, I don't understand how people can just totally downplay how hard actually GETTING 20 infestors is.
Think about this, if I have 20 infestors and you only have 4 HT, your army should be MASSIVELY bigger than mine. Split your damn army, drop a few storms and macro harder. Send a small pack of fast units like chargelots on a flank to kill infestors. Either he wastes units or fungals taking care of the infestor assassin squads, or he uses them on your army and loses his infestors. Infestors die super fast and easy to ANYTHING. You just have to position your army better and not QQ when you get outmacroed.
I must say I agree entirely on the fact of if you invest to heavily in Phoenixes you lose unless you catch the zerg entirely off guard but what you said about flanking is absolutely absurd. For protoss to be able to flank the zerg has to have zero map presence not know at all that 10 zealots are camped right where their army is going. Zealots arent fast units at all (not like zerglings) and the zerg doesnt only have the option of fungaling either the zealots or the army... why not both its not too difficult. I find that the fungal growth nerf was deserved... basically like a storm that doesnt allow you to move... but i disagree aswell with the neural parasite nerf. every Race has some aspect of an army that must be microed better than the other race to win the battle. (in a perfectly even fight). IMO zerg needs the neural parasite to counter mass colosus voidray or some other deadly type combinations that protoss players have. If you aren't able to use infestors or ht's... its pretty simple just dont use em. Many protoss players use high templars effectively but the skill level required to position them correctly is beyond even many masters level players due to the slow movement of the HT's.
I think zerg's should stop QQ'ing about protoss players whining, we're not. Please stop saying that protoss players dont know how to position HT's. How would you guys like getting infestor speed nerfed from 2.25 to 1.875 and their size so much smaller so they can get hit by much more aoe effects??? Then i guess we would start hearing some real whining  . I agree that the NP nerf is ridiculous and is not needed but this Fungal growth was very much needed.
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EPT
