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What do I think should be done? Well its quite simple. Part of what makes infestors super strong is the fact that zergs can "turtle up" with gasless units and then all of a sudden pop out 10 combat-ready infestors. If pathogen glands were removed, part of this would be fixed as a timing attack hitting right about when infestors usually come would be quite deadly, thus forcing zerg to think twice before blindly adding mass infestor. Protoss suffered the same fate due to HT instant-storm. If infestors had to be added little by little, I think a lot of the current sorrow over infestors would fade. Maybe a small fungal nerf to go with it as well. But to both nerf fungal growth AND remove neural parasite is taking it a step too far. Chainfungal can still handle poorly microed deathballs of protoss, but a well microed deathball (ie. spread out, not clumped up) will be very powerful now. And thor/BFH/SCV based builds in ZvT will be so hard to deal with - especially if a viking were to clean the field of overlords (the stargate could be validated due to BFH drops to keep the zerg on the defensive and attempt to force mutalisks, which the thor followup would be instant win against).
If you take away the energy upgrade for infestors ... the should have build time of 2 seconds -> just like High templar.
I think you dont get how that works. start production of infestor -> 50seconds
high templar warp in -> directly on the field+50 seconds for storm to be ready
i mean, you can warp in an high templar and immediatly kill drops and infestors and other energy units.
If you build an infestor ...................... you can spawn one infested terran.
thats imbalanced
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I feel that with the changes to neural parasite, I'm gonna feel just as frustrated as I used to while playing against protoss deathballs and terran mech. I feel like I'm gonna be pushed around for about ten to twenty minutes, do some uneven trades. Sneak a few bases and if I'm lucky, I can eek out a win. Guess I'm gonna have to try out either T or P in 1.4
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i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
Unmicroed Roaches die in 2 storms
unmicroed roaches with +1 armour die in 2 storms
unmicroed roaches with +2 armour die in 2 storms
unmicroed roaches with +3 armour die in 2 storms
Zealots die in 5 fungals =/
If you micro, storms will hit way more targets cause roaches will run through the storm.
So a single roach takes less dmg, but the dps remains the same.
Burrow just works in theory.
If you burrow your roaches and an observer is on the field, you lose about 1second cause of burrowing and unburrowing, and maybe another 2-3 seconds until you realize they still shoot at you + storm still deal dmg
BTW: burrowed roaches die in 3 storms.
So in theory, storms do way better against roaches than colossi do.
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i like these changes 
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On September 11 2011 08:45 angra86 wrote:
Does know anyone if the pre-ignighter nerf change tvt back to old marine/tank style?
a lot of people seem to think that, but i think mech will still reign supreme. helions will be slightly worse at killing scvs, but they are already really damn good at it and if they are in there, the scvs are dying regardless of 5 less damage per helion. marine tank by itself would get slaughtered by tank/red flame helion, the bio player is forced to go marauders. this nerf doesnt affect helion vs marauder. the mech army will still be incredibly cost efficient, and the helions will still tank damage in seige wars longer and more cost efficiently than marines. that said, the bio style can still win on a lot of maps unless the mech player plays perfectly. it will get a little bit stronger with this buff, but i think mech will still be standard. its a good thing as well, as mech to air is evolving into the most complex and interesting tvt we have seen yet, and mech vs bio is always incredibly tense and mechanically demanding for both players.
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the neural change is fine and was needed. players shouldnt have been punished for making the most powerful units against zerg. infestors were literally good against everything, and frankly still are for the most part. the early colossi timings zergs are whining about in here were usually stopped on the pro level by fungal plus roach focus fire. colossi go down very fast when they cant be microd back. infestors already have the best spell in the game, and an incredible energy dump that can be used in battle and for harass. clearly blizzard designed neural as a situational utility spell, not something that can be spammed and completely destroy a protoss that decided to use the strong units they were given.
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On September 11 2011 02:49 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 02:13 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 11 2011 01:25 Xequecal wrote:On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote:
With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game". Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period. 1 HT can feedback 4 infestors. So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors. 1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors. Infestor and HT spells have the same range, and infestors move faster. It is not possible to stop mass fungal from going off with HTs. They only need to get like 3 fungals off. If you kill 16/20 of the infestors with feedback the remaining 4 will still massacre you. Fungal's AE is massive (80% larger than that of storm) and you can't move out of it.
HT are cheaper and come out much faster than infestors. The range is less than 1/2 of FG vs FB, and you have to fg inefficiently to do it. More so, if you force an engagement, Zerg can't just hide his infestors, he has to use them to NP and chain fungal.
If you kill 16/20 infestors with feedback, you will fucking trash Zerg. They spent all that gas on infestors instead of banelings, roaches, hydras, corruptors, broodlords, ultras, or upgrades, and it means suddenly, that army of ling/infestor is now just pure lings... against colossi, storm, and sentries. 4 infestors is not enough to NP effectively (you need about 1.5x infestors as colossi, and it scales poorly going up against higher colossi numbers).
That's like saying Protoss will still be okay if 3/4ths of all their colossi are made useless. Come on, if Zerg could get by with 4 infestors instead of 20, don't you think they would do that, and make more roaches instead?
HT slaughter infestors, it's hilarious when Protoss say HT aren't effective. As long as you don't clump them all and leave them out in the open, Zerg can't fight Protoss head-on without losing a shitton of infestors when HT arrive.
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On September 11 2011 10:21 j0ker wrote:
the early colossi timings zergs are whining about in here were usually stopped on the pro level by fungal plus roach focus fire. colossi go down very fast when they cant be microd back.
So basically the zerg has infestors+roaches but the protoss was dumb and never built a sentry? Cause I don't see how the roaches even get close to the stalkers not talking colossus.
And the problem from zerg is not in early game, it's that late game 200 vs 200 you have to go corruptors now 100% (you know the only AA unit which can in no way, shape or form attack ground, which loses to void rays and which has 2/3 the range of a viking). Actually now thinking about it maybe Blizz could redesign corruption to make corruptors useful somehow (and not just an extra unit you need for broodlords).
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On September 11 2011 09:42 Coopa826 wrote:Show nested quote +What do I think should be done? Well its quite simple. Part of what makes infestors super strong is the fact that zergs can "turtle up" with gasless units and then all of a sudden pop out 10 combat-ready infestors. If pathogen glands were removed, part of this would be fixed as a timing attack hitting right about when infestors usually come would be quite deadly, thus forcing zerg to think twice before blindly adding mass infestor. Protoss suffered the same fate due to HT instant-storm. If infestors had to be added little by little, I think a lot of the current sorrow over infestors would fade. Maybe a small fungal nerf to go with it as well. But to both nerf fungal growth AND remove neural parasite is taking it a step too far. Chainfungal can still handle poorly microed deathballs of protoss, but a well microed deathball (ie. spread out, not clumped up) will be very powerful now. And thor/BFH/SCV based builds in ZvT will be so hard to deal with - especially if a viking were to clean the field of overlords (the stargate could be validated due to BFH drops to keep the zerg on the defensive and attempt to force mutalisks, which the thor followup would be instant win against). If you take away the energy upgrade for infestors ... the should have build time of 2 seconds -> just like High templar. I think you dont get how that works. start production of infestor -> 50seconds high templar warp in -> directly on the field+50 seconds for storm to be ready i mean, you can warp in an high templar and immediatly kill drops and infestors and other energy units. If you build an infestor ...................... you can spawn one infested terran. thats imbalanced
Well, if you're averaging out spellcaster time, ghosts take a hell of a lot longer to build than HTs...
And if you caught the FXO KOTH today the match where Sarens went thor/hellion/scv 2 base timing was wrecked by just mutas...not an infestor made, coming with 2/0 and 6 thors.
So there is hope, no point in theorycrafting before we have an update, it'll only lead to tears.
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On September 11 2011 10:44 Badfatpanda wrote:
Well, if you're averaging out spellcaster time, ghosts take a hell of a lot longer to build than HTs...
That's the point. That's why infestors/Ghosts have energy upgrades and HTs do not. All of them take approx. 50s to get 75 energy from the moment you start building them.
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comparing units and spells side by side is ridiculous. They are different and have different roles, that's all you can say for sure.
I think nearly everyone will agree that as of now, infestors are good to dominant in all matchups, against most or maybe even all compositions. That's not fun or interesting, so they get a nerf. IMO the np nerf feels wrong, unfortunately... what's left that's worth casting NP on? Tanks, maybe immortals? If the change happens, I hope the research cost AND energy cost of NP is reduced. And maybe even remove channeling? Being able to NP and run or NP multiple units would ensure that the spell is still used, even if it doesn't work on massives.
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And if you caught the FXO KOTH today the match where Sarens went thor/hellion/scv 2 base timing was wrecked by just mutas... not an infestor made, coming with 2/0 and 6 thors.
Sooo, what's your point exactly? You're complaining about infestors, and for proof you point out a game in which infestors were not used.
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On September 11 2011 10:04 Coopa826 wrote:Show nested quote +
i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
Unmicroed Roaches die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +1 armour die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +2 armour die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +3 armour die in 2 storms Zealots die in 5 fungals =/ If you micro, storms will hit way more targets cause roaches will run through the storm. So a single roach takes less dmg, but the dps remains the same. Burrow just works in theory. If you burrow your roaches and an observer is on the field, you lose about 1second cause of burrowing and unburrowing, and maybe another 2-3 seconds until you realize they still shoot at you + storm still deal dmg BTW: burrowed roaches die in 3 storms. So in theory, storms do way better against roaches than colossi do.
Roaches can move away from the storm. Which they always do. FG prevents movement and makes your GW units uselss. And you can chain FG due to the freeze. I would pick FG over Storm any day.
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^ chaining FG is also it's weakness, it means Zerg will always lose infestors in battles (the most expensive caster of the 3 races) and highly susceptible to FB/EMP.
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z: "onoes, i lost a few infestors in the process of demolishing your army and winning the game"
p: "damn ur right, chain fungal is weak, infestors r balanced"
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That's like saying Protoss will still be okay if 3/4ths of all their colossi are made useless
actually if you only NP 3/4ths of the colossuses, the remaining quarter can easily be microed to liberate each of the neuraled colossus. I find neural to be an all-or-none spell. I either fungal the entire army and neural every single colossus, or toss can easily micro their way out of it.
Same with terran, you have to control the tanks or else NP is useless.
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On September 11 2011 11:45 Belial88 wrote:
^ chaining FG is also it's weakness, it means Zerg will always lose infestors in battles (the most expensive caster of the 3 races) and highly susceptible to FB/EMP.
um... the infestor is definetly not the most expensive spellcaster, the infestor is 100/150, while the ghost is 200/100...
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On September 11 2011 12:37 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:45 Belial88 wrote:
^ chaining FG is also it's weakness, it means Zerg will always lose infestors in battles (the most expensive caster of the 3 races) and highly susceptible to FB/EMP. um... the infestor is definetly not the most expensive spellcaster, the infestor is 100/150, while the ghost is 200/100...
Yeah, but that's only a 50 resource difference, and it's in minerals. MULES make the exchange pretty even, and gas is more 'expensive' than minerals.
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On September 11 2011 07:03 Thraundil wrote:
Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really?
This happens in GSL all the time, zerg has 15 infestors, colossi kill 7-8 of them before getting NPed, then colossi + fungal spam from the remaining infestor slaughter entire protoss army and zerg loses almost nothing else.
Also, your "fungal is 80% larger than storm" is bogus.
It's really not, storm has an area of effect of 7.06 (pi * 1.5^2), fungal has an area of effect of 12.56. (pi * 2^2)
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On September 11 2011 10:24 Belial88 wrote:
HT are cheaper and come out much faster than infestors. The range is less than 1/2 of FG vs FB, and you have to fg inefficiently to do it. More so, if you force an engagement, Zerg can't just hide his infestors, he has to use them to NP and chain fungal.
If you kill 16/20 infestors with feedback, you will fucking trash Zerg. They spent all that gas on infestors instead of banelings, roaches, hydras, corruptors, broodlords, ultras, or upgrades, and it means suddenly, that army of ling/infestor is now just pure lings... against colossi, storm, and sentries. 4 infestors is not enough to NP effectively (you need about 1.5x infestors as colossi, and it scales poorly going up against higher colossi numbers).
No you actually won't, the remaining 4 will fungal spam your army into the ground while it sits there helpless and dies. If you're massing templar in this way you don't have colossus so nothing you have can actually shoot at the infestors while they're killing you.
Remember that Protoss also needs many sentries that also take gas, you can beat just stalker/colossus easily with just pure roach, just split them up and attack from two directions. The Protoss needs sentries to split your army in half, lacking this, you can swarm down even colossi with just pure roaches.
That's like saying Protoss will still be okay if 3/4ths of all their colossi are made useless. Come on, if Zerg could get by with 4 infestors instead of 20, don't you think they would do that, and make more roaches instead?
They make that many because if a few don't die they automatically win as fungal roots everything and mass kills it. If you only make 4 you risk losing them before you can fungal the opponent to death, that's why you mass them.
HT slaughter infestors, it's hilarious when Protoss say HT aren't effective. As long as you don't clump them all and leave them out in the open, Zerg can't fight Protoss head-on without losing a shitton of infestors when HT arrive.
HTs are not effective, they are far too slow especially when you have to fight on creep and trying to feedback caster units whose spells have the same range as yours and that are moving at near double the speed yours are. Storm is not useful against the units Zerg commonly uses (roaches, brood lords) and feedback is nowhere near good enough to stop infestors from mass murdering you. Top Protoss do not even use HTs anymore against Zerg because they are just a waste of gas and a tech path. They still go for Colossus despite NP because they're a hell of a lot better than useless templar. And despite that they're still approaching 30% winrate vs Zerg so the infestor's ability to nullify colossi has to go.
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EPT
