EPT[D] Patch 1.4 and its implications - Page 30
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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cbueno
Ireland76 Posts
On September 11 2011 02:13 Flonomenalz wrote: 1 HT can feedback 4 infestors. So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors. 1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors. this is very poor comment. You just got to realise that infestor not only outranges the HT, but its moves faster, you can get many infestors way bfore Toss can get on HT and how long does it take for a HT to click on each infestor to neutralise it, when u just click with one infestor and half the army is neutralised... Ghost perhaps...But in PvT its no longer a toss storm party instead its a terran emp party now.. Its actually very hard to get the ghost with HT cos presently ghost outnumber HTs as they get produced cheaper, earlier and move faster giving them a higher survival rate... | ||
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
On September 11 2011 02:20 Belial88 wrote: ^ Yea unless P is stupid and floats them out front or groups them all together, it's horrible when you have to channel NP or chain FG and get 1 FG off and lose 10-20 infestors in the process. There's a reason Zerg make 20 infestors, because having 10 wouldn't be enough. And losing them to much cheaper HT really sucks. So, if P keeps all their HT's grouped its bad, but if you move all your infestors up for a fungal in a group its not? | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 11 2011 02:13 Flonomenalz wrote: 1 HT can feedback 4 infestors. So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors. 1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors. Infestor and HT spells have the same range, and infestors move faster. It is not possible to stop mass fungal from going off with HTs. They only need to get like 3 fungals off. If you kill 16/20 of the infestors with feedback the remaining 4 will still massacre you. Fungal's AE is massive (80% larger than that of storm) and you can't move out of it. | ||
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Granter
Sweden64 Posts
On September 10 2011 21:16 Coopa826 wrote: HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it. Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously Just like i have to spread my entire army out when i face a zerg cant you do the same thing with your infestors not to get EMP, no because you are a scrub zerg that just whines and believe the game is 100% balanced when you kill a terran full terran army with a couple of fungels and than refer to it as skill. If you didnt know EMP doesnt murder the infestors, compared to what fungel does. | ||
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
On August 26 2011 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: I love all the changes except 5 sec more on rax (wtf) and immortal range. Those buggers already ass rape face. DPS of sieged tanks, that can move, hard to kill, and attack faster sans splash. No thank you on the range =( Ohhhh and oohhh cheaper overseers is gay IMO. Already hard to clear the overlords around... now cloakshees have no place what so ever in TvZ and they can get them MUCH much easier, without worrying about gas cost. un fun =( Did a real thought in your brain occur when you were writing any of this? | ||
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potmilk
Canada87 Posts
On September 11 2011 04:40 ClanRH.TV wrote: Did a real thought in your brain occur when you were writing any of this? He expected to get battlecruisers out of barracks for 50 minerals and no tech requirements :[ But besides that. I wonder how zergs will deal with the thor tank ghost(viking) deathball now. It was always a problem where ghosts effectively took out all infestor energy, and terran mech just stomps on everything else. Pre Patch NP would be good if you could sneak a few NP, and even EMPs dont stop channeling. Other than that, minor buff to toss to make immortals viable. Still believe terran just has too much utility and their spell casting advantage is ridiculous | ||
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matiK23
United States963 Posts
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
On August 25 2011 20:14 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only All I heard here was "wah, wah, wah, wah, durp, herp." First time zerg gets any unit that can win games like every one of your units that ended up being nerfed...and it gets DOUBLE nerfed. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On September 11 2011 05:46 ClanRH.TV wrote: All I heard here was "wah, wah, wah, wah, durp, herp." First time zerg gets any unit that can win games like every one of your units that ended up being nerfed...and it gets DOUBLE nerfed. Except for the fact that you could double produce them in Tier 2 at a cost of 100 each and that they fried all early zerg units besides queens (roaches dont count, they suck in ZvT and delay tech). Were almost as fast as speed zerglings without upgrades and had an AOE attack. I considered them being too easily thrown away. I can deflect a total of 10 hellions but if three gets in your raid will be worth it. | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On September 11 2011 02:49 Xequecal wrote: Infestor and HT spells have the same range, and infestors move faster. It is not possible to stop mass fungal from going off with HTs. They only need to get like 3 fungals off. If you kill 16/20 of the infestors with feedback the remaining 4 will still massacre you. Fungal's AE is massive (80% larger than that of storm) and you can't move out of it. Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really? Also, your "fungal is 80% larger than storm" is bogus. I did a little test. I made 2 marine balls with combat shield. 68 marines in each. 1 HT killed 24 marines in one cast. 1 infestor killed 34 marines in two casts. Last I checked, 80% more than 24 is 43. This quick study shows that fungal growth cowers more like 40% more area than the storm, and does roughly half the damage. So, against light armor targets of infinite hp of the same size of marines (for the sake of argument here), the math is: Storm: 80 damage times 24 marines hit for 75 energy = 25,6 damage per energy. Fungal (currently): 36 damage times 34 marines hit for 75 energy = 16,3 damage per energy. Or vs the same, but armored units: 20,8 damage per energy. Conclusion: What you are saying you pulled out of your ass. A psionic storm does almost twice the damage of a fungal growth in its area of effect vs light. Now lets look at the reason you get psionic storm vs the reason you get fungal. Storm: Primary purpose is to throw on masses of small, light units of low HP, thus dealing massive damage quickly. Sure you can move out of it, but if you're good at storming you will make sure to storm such that if the guy retreats, you gain a tactical advantage, if he pushes forward he runs into your meatgrinder army and if he stands still he dies. Does the HT serve its purpose with storm: Yes. Fungal: Primary purpose is to a) in small numbers; gain positional advantages, kill small clumps of units that are microed poorly, punish mistakes and add support dps to the zerg army. Example: mass blinkstalker vs mass roach, blinkstalkers can kill so many roaches. But once infestors are out the added dps and the lockdown means the zerg can punish the protoss for staying on one tech for too long. b) in large numbers: roflstomps everything. I agree that b) is a problem. But I think infestors in moderate numbers are perfectly fine. I think blizzard could find a way better method of making infestors more balanced, because I agree that mass mass mass infestor is ridiculous. But saying that "omg 4 infestors stomp an entire protoss army while HT is completely useless!" is just fucking bullshit. Add to this that energy-low HTs morph into very powerful units (that will soon be immune to NP) whilst energy-low infestors are worse than useless. | ||
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cbueno
Ireland76 Posts
On September 11 2011 07:03 Thraundil wrote: Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really? Dude you are missing the point completelly.... Besides the Pros agree that infestor are op so here comes the nerf hammer whether u want it or not... Toss is the worst off race and we have had adapted somehow and we still play on... Now u can do two things...adapt and play or give up and delete the game... | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On September 11 2011 07:39 cbueno wrote: Dude you are missing the point completelly.... Besides the Pros agree that infestor are op so here comes the nerf hammer whether u want it or not... Toss is the worst off race and we have had adapted somehow and we still play on... Now u can do two things...adapt and play or give up and delete the game... Read my post again. I specifically point out that even I think that infestors are OP. I do not think "soft removing" neural parasite is the answer. There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong. What my point (and you quote out of context, by the way) is: That guy saying that high templars are super super super bad while in the same sentence saying that infestors are mega super overpower imba strong is wrong. Infestors are slightly too powerful, high templars are fine (and once ppl will stop bothering to get NP, surprise-storm could be fairly deadly in the late game. Roaches are slow, they will maybe dodge some of the storm but its still insanely high damage for a 150 gas unit). Infestors need a change, yes. We will adapt. But I, along with almost everybody I know (terran and protoss players too) find that the NP nerf is unrealistically harsh and will make certain timing pushes require 100% pristine reaction, scouting and defense timing from the zerg or it will be a free autoloss. | ||
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cbueno
Ireland76 Posts
On September 11 2011 08:14 Thraundil wrote: Roaches are slow, they will maybe dodge some of the storm but its still insanely high damage for a 150 gas unit). i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm. | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On September 11 2011 08:22 cbueno wrote: i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm. Just like marines rape your colossi and zerglings stomp archons, right? I am wildly generalising here, but unless you put up some actual numbers, claims like this just makes you look stupid. Are storms the best vs roaches? By no means. Are storms utterly negligible? No chance. Sure, roaches can retreat and burrow to heal up. So how about chasing the roaches and killing them before they have the chance? I dare you, post a replay were the zerg and protoss are equal, and the protoss uses storms, and if you were to remove those storms completely from the equation the outcome had been the same. Go ahead, I'll look forward to seeing some hard evidence rather than wild platinum-league QQ. | ||
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angra86
United States56 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 11 2011 08:30 Thraundil wrote: Just like marines rape your colossi and zerglings stomp archons, right? I am wildly generalising here, but unless you put up some actual numbers, claims like this just makes you look stupid. Are storms the best vs roaches? By no means. Are storms utterly negligible? No chance. Sure, roaches can retreat and burrow to heal up. So how about chasing the roaches and killing them before they have the chance? I dare you, post a replay were the zerg and protoss are equal, and the protoss uses storms, and if you were to remove those storms completely from the equation the outcome had been the same. Go ahead, I'll look forward to seeing some hard evidence rather than wild platinum-league QQ. Roaches with speed, which they will have, are faster than stalkers, so they are not slow. Roaches have two choices when stormed. They can run out of it and take less damage than stalkers would, which is saying something since no one uses storm vs stalkers. Or they can burrow, and heal 40 health while taking 80 damage worth of storm, meaning that overall they will lose 40 hp. A roach has 145 hp, so that would be more than 3 and a half storms to kill them. And that would only be if they sat and didn't move for more than 14 seconds of constant storm. Then take into account that these roaches are some of the cheapest units in the game. Now obviously there are other factors because you will almost never see straight HTs vs roaches in a real game, but those statistics do show that roaches are probably the worst unit in the game to try and storm. | ||
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cbueno
Ireland76 Posts
On September 11 2011 08:30 Thraundil wrote: Just like marines rape your colossi and zerglings stomp archons, right? I am wildly generalising here, but unless you put up some actual numbers, claims like this just makes you look stupid. Are storms the best vs roaches? By no means. Are storms utterly negligible? No chance. Sure, roaches can retreat and burrow to heal up. So how about chasing the roaches and killing them before they have the chance? I dare you, post a replay were the zerg and protoss are equal, and the protoss uses storms, and if you were to remove those storms completely from the equation the outcome had been the same. Go ahead, I'll look forward to seeing some hard evidence rather than wild platinum-league QQ. Fig is correct at what he said above... Now, I dont need to pull numbers cos if u are a zerg, then u already know that to storm a roach is a joke without counting roaching regen speed. To say this is not true nor not to recognize this is as basic as knowing a zealot can kill a zergling. Forgive me but this does not require math or to be a rocket scientist. Toss has gone throught dramatic changes and still going throught. Since the patch is gonna produce changes, you got to adapt. Use the new units that have buff....surelly the ultra buff must be usefull...but as i said before, combine with some banes or muta or broods and some infestors...If i saw a zerg army mixed with ultras, its something i must admit i am not too confortable with cos i know how strong they are... One thing is for sure...Blizz wants to see people say "omg he has ultras" just like in the old sc1.... Just got to experiment not throw the towel before having a go.... if u still determined about the storm and roaches numbers then make a search for it in TL, i know its in here somewhere...i saw the stats with upgrades and without upgrades..as i recall u need between 4-6 storms to kill a roach and thats provided he doesnt move and stays still.... | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
Since the patch is gonna produce changes, you got to adapt. The patch is gonna force Zerg into the roaches/corruptor vs Deathball again, and we all know which side it favor + Like said earlier, it leave the zerg with no counter against Thor push, making me very doubtful this will go live if u still determined about the storm and roaches numbers then make a search for it in TL, i know its in here somewhere...i saw the stats with upgrades and without upgrades..as i recall u need between 4-6 storms to kill a roach and thats provided he doesnt move and stays still.... What the hell, roaches hae 140hp, storm do 80dmg, you need 2 storm to blow up a ball of unmicroed roaches | ||
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Irishladdie
United States8 Posts
That's like saying vikings aren't the counter to collosi because stalkers only need to blink 3 range in before they can start firing on the Vikings. YES, it is possible to use a unit to kill its hardcounter, but that doesn't mean it's not a hardcounter. Zerglings can still kill hellions. | ||
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