Rainbow has shown BC/Ghost just rolls infestor play. You don't need BC's in ZvT because other units do fine. You didnt' see BC's in BW ZvT.
And no good Zerg opens infestors in ZvT, so you must be the only one having trouble with them. Right now the best Zergs all use ling/bane/muta (violet tries to go infestor and he gets roflstomped by Terran, the casters even went as far to say he has no clue how to play the MU) and then transition to BL/Infestor after they win the mid-game with ling/bane/infestor and secure a huge macro lead.
Tank/Viking is too cost efficient against BL/Infestor, it never works unless can afford to throw away such costly units because they are up 2 bases. That's not to mention ghosts, which immediately make infestors worthless.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
On September 10 2011 14:16 genius_man16 wrote: I'm just gonna go mass thor every-game now cuz the only way to stop it was with NP, but now i'm free of that.
Yay free wins vs zerg?
Yes. This makes the old hellion/thor build TvZ valid again. As now Zs can NP the thors and FG the hellions with enough infestors.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
On September 10 2011 14:16 genius_man16 wrote: I'm just gonna go mass thor every-game now cuz the only way to stop it was with NP, but now i'm free of that.
Yay free wins vs zerg?
Yes. This makes the old hellion/thor build TvZ valid again. As now Zs can NP the thors and FG the hellions with enough infestors.
It was always viable, just had to add ghosts , although now 20 supply=3 moar thors soooo...yay?
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
Excuse me but a protoss going blind colossus to counter "a swarm of zerg units" that he hasnt verified is even there is just plain out bad. That is not how the game is supposed to work, just like zerg cannot go pure ling/infestor without any scouting information whatsoever, as a chargelot/HT/few archon timing push will play balls with it.
Now I want to say for the record I agree with the consensus that infestors are currently too dominant. ZvT can still be played without if you're good with other styles, ZvP can maybe be managed until past 15 minutes, but then it becomes unplayable without infestors. ZvZ will feature a super agressive early game and then a turtle midgame into lategame mass infestor plays. All matchups infestors can be gamechanging if the opponent does not respond correctly. High templars, ghosts and infestors each respond well to the opponents infestors.
Sure, on paper a perfectly controlled infestor ball will outfungal a HT ball - but this is assuming the protoss does not have any other units. Whoever keeps his infestors in front? They will be wrecked by offensive blinks and chargelots / colossi fire. Think a real game scenario here
While I am willing to say that infestors are too strong in ZvP as of right now, I will in no way say that a nerf this severe is validated. ZvT is already quite imbalanced in favor of terran, nerfing a zerg powerunit will only make it worse (and lets not forget; blueflame hellions will still stomp zerglings).
What do I think should be done? Well its quite simple. Part of what makes infestors super strong is the fact that zergs can "turtle up" with gasless units and then all of a sudden pop out 10 combat-ready infestors. If pathogen glands were removed, part of this would be fixed as a timing attack hitting right about when infestors usually come would be quite deadly, thus forcing zerg to think twice before blindly adding mass infestor. Protoss suffered the same fate due to HT instant-storm. If infestors had to be added little by little, I think a lot of the current sorrow over infestors would fade. Maybe a small fungal nerf to go with it as well. But to both nerf fungal growth AND remove neural parasite is taking it a step too far. Chainfungal can still handle poorly microed deathballs of protoss, but a well microed deathball (ie. spread out, not clumped up) will be very powerful now. And thor/BFH/SCV based builds in ZvT will be so hard to deal with - especially if a viking were to clean the field of overlords (the stargate could be validated due to BFH drops to keep the zerg on the defensive and attempt to force mutalisks, which the thor followup would be instant win against).
Infact the only matchup I like the change in is ZvZ. Infestors filled too much. They still will, but slightly less so now than before.
On September 10 2011 23:30 mr_tolkien wrote: I think NP needs a buff if the non massive nerf goes in. No channeling, longer duration, or longer range, pick 1 or 2!
Do you agree?
I feel the range, and time duration on the infestors are already good as it is.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
Except that protoss is the absolute best at tech switching, while we need a tech structure for each unit protoss don't need quite as many. Sure terran isnt best at tech switch but ghosts are then reaally good.
On September 10 2011 22:58 Thraundil wrote: While I am willing to say that infestors are too strong in ZvP as of right now, I will in no way say that a nerf this severe is validated. ZvT is already quite imbalanced in favor of terran, nerfing a zerg powerunit will only make it worse (and lets not forget; blueflame hellions will still stomp zerglings).
i think what Blizz is trying to tell you with the new patch is to go like old sc1 style of play. That is > ultra + infest or infest + banes or ultra + banes kinda play...in some cases this is good cos ghost will not play well in some parts.....so u can easelly tech switch between infestor into somthign else rndering ghost a useless unit.... I think they want something close to the old sc style....thats why the ultra buff...
On September 10 2011 23:34 Olsson wrote: Except that protoss is the absolute best at tech switching, while we need a tech structure for each unit protoss don't need quite as many. Sure terran isnt best at tech switch but ghosts are then reaally good.
this is absurde....try and tech switch and you will die a painfull death as Toss...why you think the pros dont tech switch? Instad they add to the composition, they dont tech switch. Cos tech switching is expensive and thats without including researches. Toss strenght is in adding to their composition not tech switching.
On September 10 2011 23:30 mr_tolkien wrote: I think NP needs a buff if the non massive nerf goes in. No channeling, longer duration, or longer range, pick 1 or 2!
Do you agree?
I feel the range, and time duration on the infestors are already good as it is.
Yes, if you can NP proper units. But if you can't anymore, I'm pretty sure removing the channeling at least would ease the pain of the Zergs and make the spell much more interesting.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
Except that protoss is the absolute best at tech switching, while we need a tech structure for each unit protoss don't need quite as many. Sure terran isnt best at tech switch but ghosts are then reaally good.
lol wtf. Since when do we not need tech structure for each unit, and since when do our tech structures not cost more or take longer to build. You need a tech lab and ghost academy to tech to ghost, okay. Protoss needs twilight council and templar archives to tech to high templar. overall cost of templar archives compared to tech lab (assuming you dont have one) and ghost academy is
150 200 50
to
150 50 40 50 25 25
look at the huge cost difference and time difference. While i admit you might lose prod for 25 secs if you dont already have a tech lab, ghosts cost less to research and is more effective as well (AOE > single target).
So dont ever bitch about teching, only time you can do that is about BCs, and who uses BCs except in TvT anyway.
Why didnt they chose to nerf Infestors by having FG not freezing Massive units or something like that instead of just removing the major reason why NPs was researched in the 1st place?
Who will think in their rightful mind "Oh, here's a VRay/ Tank, let's research NP!"
This will simply remove NP from the game. And remove at the same time one of the last funny/ flavored things SC2 has in it. (because that NP is spectacular and fun to play/ watch, imagine: No more Mothership NP... WTF!)
I don't really understand the reasoning for the nerfing of NP. IMO, instead of people QQing about how it's "imba", they should be more active in eliminating/making useless infestors.
Take a look at dark swarm from BroodWar. If this was introduced in SC2, there would be an instant shitstorm. It wasn't taken out of BroodWar. Terrans figured out that they had to kill defilers somehow, making sure that the zerg didn't get too many of them. Terrans used science vessels. Why don't SC2 terrans use ghosts (they CAN cloak) to EMP/Snipe infestors?
With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Having said that, I think that the rest of the patch is good. Especially the part about Warp Prisms. Protoss really needs that.
The mothership IMO is a terrible unit. It seems viable only KiWiKaKi style (running around blink stalkers, killing stuff, and then mass recalling to retreat).
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
Too bad then that Protoss can't run around and kill infestors before they get on the field. They could run stalkers around and blink to kill stuff, but fungal shuts that down pretty hard.
I think that Blizzard should aim towards the defiler/science vessel relationship in BW. That was fun to watch, and was good for gameplay. I'm not saying that the infestor should be replaced with the defiler. But changes need to happen.
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
EPT
, although now 20 supply=3 moar thors soooo...yay?
