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This happens in GSL all the time, zerg has 15 infestors, colossi kill 7-8 of them before getting NPed, then colossi + fungal spam from the remaining infestor slaughter entire protoss army and zerg loses almost nothing else.
No, don't make shit up please. There was only 2 series where Zerg had gotten infestors against Colossi, both with DRG, and in both series DRG took a super fast third against Protoss and won because of a huge macro lead with that, not because of infestors. There was a GSTL game where Leenock made infestors vs colossi.. and oh yea, he lost. There was a single other series where Zerg got infestors, and didn't take a fast third (leenock vs alicia), but Alicia never made colossi.
No you actually won't, the remaining 4 will fungal spam your army into the ground while it sits there helpless and dies. If you're massing templar in this way you don't have colossus so nothing you have can actually shoot at the infestors while they're killing you.
With 4 infestors you might have 6 FG. It takes about 12 to kill colosi? And yea, if you don't have colossus, you're going to be in trouble. That's like crying that marines without support get shredded by storm.
Remember that Protoss also needs many sentries that also take gas, you can beat just stalker/colossus easily with just pure roach, just split them up and attack from two directions. The Protoss needs sentries to split your army in half, lacking this, you can swarm down even colossi with just pure roaches.
This is heavily map dependent. It also depends on Protoss' playstyle. Roaches will never kill stalker/colossi unless they have a huge macro advantage, in which case Zerg has already won the game. Similarly, if Protoss gets a macro advantage...
HTs are not effective, they are far too slow especially when you have to fight on creep and trying to feedback caster units whose spells have the same range as yours and that are moving at near double the speed yours are. Storm is not useful against the units Zerg commonly uses (roaches, brood lords) and feedback is nowhere near good enough to stop infestors from mass murdering you. Top Protoss do not even use HTs anymore against Zerg because they are just a waste of gas and a tech path. They still go for Colossus despite NP because they're a hell of a lot better than useless templar. And despite that they're still approaching 30% winrate vs Zerg so the infestor's ability to nullify colossi has to go.
Top protoss always use HT against infestors, you don't make any sense. Maybe I'm just a scrub, but at high Masters my infestors get FB'd all the time, and I assure you micro them with all the dilligence in the world. Storm is perfectly useful against Zerg, particularly the units Zerg has with infestors (lings and banes).
There are lots of replays where White-Ra goes stalker/colossi and adds HT when he sees infestors, and he manages to FB them many times. He uses positioning with observers to snipe a few, as well as splitting them up in his own army when he engages.
Infestors make the game all about positioning. Zerg rely on infestors so much because it's our stalker/marine. It's what our hydralisk is supposed to be. It's a versatile unit. Without the infestor, Zerg has no counter to blink, colossi, or archons, until t3. And Zerg will often die if they try to go to hive too quickly, like before 4 bases. Either Zerg's specialized units need a buff (hydras lose to phoenix, mutas aren't great against robo when there's a bunch of stalkers, baneling rain can be micro'd out of) or the infestor needs to stay the way it is.
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On September 10 2011 03:22 Onos wrote:
Ok, before all the protoss keep trying to compare the HT nerf to infestors/ghosts. The reason HT lost amulets was due to warp gate mechanic. Assuming no current production it takes the following amount of time before a caster has 75 energy.
Infestor: 50s - production time
Ghost: 40s - production time
High Templar - 5s (warp in time) + (25/0.5625) = 5s+44.4s = 49.4s
So from the moment you start building a caster to the moment it has 75 energy it is almost the same time (ghosts are slightly faster - maybe to compensate for tech lab required, dunno)
Also note that most zerg agree that infestors needed some nerfs but zerg needs some form of AA buff.
And just for the fun of it for the poster above me (by the time I wrote this 2 above me).
Let's see what a collosus does:
Huge range
Sees up clifs
Moves up and down clifs
Scales awesome with upgrades
and it's main disadvantage is that it forces AA units from the enemy.
Those numbers are unmoving though... HTs are by far the most vulnerable of all the casters... hell the other two casters even go invisible. So you have a unit that is exposed to being killed for 49.4 seconds before casting its primary spell and its more vulnerable than any other units in the game... literally. One of the posts above says something about the difference between KA removal and this NP change is they are removing a spell from the game when KA is just an upgrade... to that I say... with the rationale people use about how long it takes to gather storm energy balancing it out with other casters, blizzard effectively removed the ability to warp an entire unit in with warpgates. I would much rather have KA upgrade in the game and not be able to build templars with warpgates.
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On September 12 2011 03:21 CBNMystery wrote:I agree that the NP nerf is ridiculous and is not needed but this Fungal growth was very much needed.
I never said it wasn't FG nerf probably was needed. If anything, they could just revert to the old Fungal, 8 seconds, shitty dps.
But, as noted by a few other people, the majority of Z's units just suck. Either due to cost inefficiency, food inefficiency, size, speed, pathing...one thing or another makes nearly every unit we have really really bad.
The infestor is the only good versatile unit we have and the only answer we have at ALL to some situations. So, yes, until that situation changes you'll probably keep seeing a LOT of infestors, even if they're nerfed.
Maybe if blizz made the ultra less retarded, or the hydra faster, cheaper OR stronger, or if the roach was 1 or 1.5 food instead of 2, or if a million other things, then you'll see infestors become less prevalent...until then, zerg will probably keep massing them, nerf or no nerf. And the NP nerf will hurt zerg a LOT.
Not to mention I don't understand how protoss players are crying out about this so much, as the currently UP race, you'd think you want to see Terran nerfed, or toss buffed, why try to get the other non-terran race kicked, too? If you keep crying for zerg nerf, pretty soon terran will be the only playable race.
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the problem is that FG and NP is meant to help you get a small edge, not win the battle completelly without loosing almost no units....
is very similar as before when toss had storm amulate. The storm rained from the sky and toss was able to win almost all battles with little units losts....And rightly so it was nerfed..
This is the exact same thing...
Its ok get and edge but when it becomes spam, then there is a problem specially when the spam comes from a unit that comes out earlier than HT...
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If they really want to do that to NP the energy that NP costs should be about 75
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On September 12 2011 08:50 cbueno wrote:
the problem is that FG and NP is meant to help you get a small edge, not win the battle completelly without loosing almost no units....
is very similar as before when toss had storm amulate. The storm rained from the sky and toss was able to win almost all battles with little units losts....And rightly so it was nerfed..
This is the exact same thing...
Its ok get and edge but when it becomes spam, then there is a problem specially when the spam comes from a unit that comes out earlier than HT...
That's not true and...that's not true.
First of all where has Blizzard ever stated how FG and NP were "intended" to be used? Please, provide some proof to back that statement up.
Secondly, no, Protoss were not absolutely dominating everybody with their warp-in-storms and in fact most of the community was a bit surprised that Blizzard removed Amulet at all, but Protoss was not generally considered to be OP at all. All I do know is that after the nerf the time it takes to get Ghosts, HT, and Infestors out and ready to cast a spell all became balanced so I guess Blizz did the right thing.
I've personally always felt like Infestors were too strong and filled too many roles, yes they should be nerfed in a few ways I have no problem with that.
What I DO have a problem with is that I've also previously said that if Blizzard ever significantly nerfs Infestors they better fix Hydras and Corruptors to balance things out, yet we get nothing in the aftermath. It's a bad joke, if these nerfs make it to patch there is no way I'm gonna keep playing Zerg until they are fixed.
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In reading the pro-NP-nerf comments, I can't help but see my own frustration in playing against terran mech or Colossus deathballs.
They're incredibly strong, resilient and powerful compositions that are hard to stop, hard to engage, and dangerous to avoid. Infestor-based Zerg compositions are the same way... but is that a bad thing? Are we supposed to be limited to sending waves and waves of roach/hydra/corruptor to die to his stalker/sentry/colossus and try win using our "ability to remax fast"? Are we supposed to just get slaughtered by the extreme dps of thors supported by the tanking and frying blue flame hellions as a smattering of ravens/banshees pick off even further units without hope of losing them?
They're not easy to hold, they're not supposed to be easy. These power units are supposed to be power units, and hoping infestors get nerfed into unplayability is like hoping the game gets to a point where you can win 75% of your XvZs simply because you actually have power units, and they do not.
If you're one of the ones crying Infestor imba, take a look at how many times you've got to forcefield / colossus your way across the middle of the map in an unstoppable, hopeless push... or meticulously manage your marine/tank/medevac as you claim every square inch of space between their base and yours. Think of those moments and think about how fucking imbalanced they'd feel for the person on the recieving end getting slaughtered by cost efficience and control. Please, please notice the distinct paralells between those two pushes and the use of infestors.
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when we cant get thors or colossus why should we use np ? They should remove the ability it is worthless now.
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Here's what I'm seeing in this thread:
"If there are 20 infestors out on the field and they fungal and NP, you lose"
That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
You guys are comparing the spellcasters of the three different races with each other. IMO, this isn't right. Each caster, although a spellcaster, serves a different purpose. Infestors provide an answer to the massing of massive units. It serves to make T/P think twice about moving around with 5+ Thors/Colossi.
Instead of finding solutions there's a lot of whining. What can T do to nullify infestors? Well, ghosts have EMP and snipe. Both can nullify/kill infestors. However, P gets the short end of the stick on this. All they have are HT, which are notoriously slow. However, I do have to say that if you let ALL your colossi get NP'd, and you don't do anything about it, you have bigger problems than NP itself.
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who even uses colo/stalker/sentry deathballs anymore? I can't remember the last time I saw it in GSL, it's difficult to reach without falling way behind, it can be beaten handily by some combination of roach/infestor/banedrop or mutas locking you into your base (oh and it's waaaay too easy to lose your entire sentry squad to a couple of surprise fungals in the early/midgame). PvZ right now seems to be all about some form of gateway attack around 8-12 min, with often some stargate units thrown in. Colossi only seem to get built if the game goes past that, and only sometimes.
NP is kinda bad vs colo anyways, I mean cmon, the infestors are almost always going to die to some combination of thermal lance/blink/feedback.
The real effect of NP not working on massives in PvZ is that archon/zlot will be useable.
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oops, delete this post plz
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On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing in this thread:
"If there are 20 infestors out on the field and they fungal and NP, you lose"
That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
You guys are comparing the spellcasters of the three different races with each other. IMO, this isn't right. Each caster, although a spellcaster, serves a different purpose. Infestors provide an answer to the massing of massive units. It serves to make T/P think twice about moving around with 5+ Thors/Colossi.
Instead of finding solutions there's a lot of whining. What can T do to nullify infestors? Well, ghosts have EMP and snipe. Both can nullify/kill infestors. However, P gets the short end of the stick on this. All they have are HT, which are notoriously slow. However, I do have to say that if you let ALL your colossi get NP'd, and you don't do anything about it, you have bigger problems than NP itself.
20 infestors is... not a paltry sum of gas by any means, but not that gas intensive either. In fact, in drawn out ZvP's I can usually get up to that number because I actively seek to save infestors during the big engagements.
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20 infestors is... not a paltry sum of gas by any means, but not that gas intensive either. In fact, in drawn out ZvP's I can usually get up to that number because I actively seek to save infestors during the big engagements.
Huh? Infestors are extremely gas intensive. You might as well say 30 mutas is not gas intensive, or 10 colossi are not gas intensive.
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I don't think the barracks +5 build time can be justified
generally, my orbital command is made straight after my rax with a few seconds of not building an scv
this additional 5 second void will have me awkwardly waiting for my barracks to finish when in the meantime no scv's are being made (approximately 7 seconds just sittin there)
furthermore 5 seconds is a potential 5 energy from the orbital - gone.
This has probably already been mentioned, just wanted to flame a bit.
Speaking of flames, i think the bfh nerf is absolutely fine
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On September 12 2011 12:46 Keilah wrote:
who even uses colo/stalker/sentry deathballs anymore? I can't remember the last time I saw it in GSL, it's difficult to reach without falling way behind, it can be beaten handily by some combination of roach/infestor/banedrop or mutas locking you into your base (oh and it's waaaay too easy to lose your entire sentry squad to a couple of surprise fungals in the early/midgame). PvZ right now seems to be all about some form of gateway attack around 8-12 min, with often some stargate units thrown in. Colossi only seem to get built if the game goes past that, and only sometimes..
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
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On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote:
That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out.
Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL:
a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame.
b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
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This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are better.
Protoss can get HT, or they can simply micro and get rid of NP (Losira vs Genius Xel Naga Fortress, for example, he counters the infestors by expanding immediately and then out-macroing an opening thats' extremely expensive).
It's annoying when people insist Infestors are so great. They are expensive as well, take a fast third, and you can outmacro Zerg spending so much on tech, or just get HT and feedback. Every single pro game where Protoss gets HT to FB infestors, he does so just fine, so no "fg > fb" please, because that's ridiculous when colossi exist to force engagements where infestors have to get close to FG, and you can split the much cheaper caster (which one can kill 4 infestors with).
Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style
Let me guess - you don't play Zerg. Nydus is horrible (drops are better). Muta switches are okay, but they cost a lot of money and require your first army dying, and somehow not getting killed the time you have no army and when mutas pop.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out.
Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL:
a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame.
Zerg needs to be a base ahead of Protoss to be even. So 2 base vs 2 base is an advantage to Protoss. What's more, chronoboost keeps Protoss worker count pretty even to 2 base Zerg.
Protoss wins games many times going late game with Zerg when they both have 70+ workers, Protoss end game is way better than Zerg's. The issue is that Zerg can get there quicker, but when Protoss gets 4+ bases it's just impossibly hard for Zerg. If you haven't seen any PvZ longer than 20 minutes where P wins, you must not be looking hard, because that's half of all PvZ's longer than 20 minutes.
The difference is that if you include HT to your army, zerg can't do anything. FB is too good and too easy on infestors. The idea that "oh no, you have 10 infestors, there's nothing i can do!" is ridiculous. Zerg has 10 infestors because any less, they would lose, and you can easily FB at least half in an engagement with splitting micro. Pro Protoss do this all the time, white-ra has a lot of games like that, like his 4-1 against Nerchio.
5 gate robo pressure isn't all in, and extremely strong. 3 gate sentry pressure is extremely strong, and not all-in. Protoss just needs to know when to back off, and some Protoss know how to do that perfectly.
b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
The protoss deathball is a way too strong though, that's the problem. And Roach/Infestor/BL is owned by VR/Colossi/HT. It'd be nice if remaxing on roaches did anything against deathballs, but it doesn't.
PvZ is fine right now, Protoss is losing largely because of Zerg knowing how to 'counter' FFE, and because of the popularity of stargate resulting in lots of losses as Zerg got buffed with spore root time.
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i think belial88 is misinformed in every statement he made so far lol
it is like you are still playing 1.1 matey
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Read the notes im thrilled for the buffs protoss got. I was very happy with the somewhat nerf to fungal. Then I saw that np couldn't be used on collosus/thors/motherships ect.
Which is interesting to me. On one hand the infestor at this point is extremely cost effective to the point of almost idiocy. Every one makes them and they make alot of them. Its rare that I ever see a game now that they don't get 6+ of them.
They use these to fungal an army then parasite the larger creatures enabling them to basically win with little to no loses. ( I actually feared that thors and coll would be taken out of the game entirely do to the fact that zerg would also benefit from the upgrades that the other player had at that time.) Then push for a very easy win. Its in my mind setting up a glass goblet to get smashed with a hammer.
Now with the nerf I wonder what could they use parasite for. Seige tanks for terran. and immortals for protoss seem to be about the only things that I can think of. The answer then turns into why bother?
Even though Im a protoss player and I hate to see zergs use parasite on me I do not think we should take away the spell. I think it should cost alot more. Make the zerg think about using this spell or fungal.
What I would propose is put the spell up to 125 like the seeker missle but let it keep its ability to control massive. It would encourage the zerg to make more, harder choices. Its not so cheap that you can do it twice, or do it once then fungal and run away ( unless youv managed to store there energy up to max. Even the raven does not have this luxury) . Or reduce the amount of time it has sway on units so that they get off less shots and enabling an army to at least hold its own vrs your spells.
As it stands if they fungal 3 collo or thors youv lost that engagement unless you can snipe the infestors. Which is a very hard thing to do if you keep getting fungaled and stuck in place.
Of course people are just going to claim kill the infestors or its easy to deal with. But for the vast majority of players no its not. There are many changes that need to be made in order to balance the game. But keeping your one great unit will not do this.
At one point as protoss we had a great unit. It was the templar. Now you don't tend to see them very often unless it calls for feed back on your one great unit. Or we have a horde or marine marauders barelling down our drive way.
In all honesty infestors at this point have the best spells in the game. We cannot run or hide or micro from fungal keepimng your spell caster well out of hars way and safe. And you can have an army with parasite and infested. To top it off you can burrow and hide. Terran and protoss do no have these luxeries. Our storms are used to damage an army but they can be microed away from. And a ghost is mostly these days made just to have something to counter your infestors with. As if you dont make them you cannot win. (Unless your tlo but even he uses ghosts some times. 
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I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
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EPT
