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I don't get the comments that claim that infestors were too powerful in a PvZ matchup. What's going on at the top level of play? There are now Zerg players, not an overwhelming amount. Not more than there should be. But the top six at competitions are no longer being dominated by Terran and sometimes Protoss. I'd say that alone is indicative of balance at the top level of play.
What goes on at the bottom end of play? Not much change, as to get infestors out at a good time and use them efficiently requires the decent use of more than 4 hotkeys. If you've mastered that basic level of mechanics, you're probably not in Bronze, Silver or Gold.
So at the mid range (Plat, Diamond, Low Masters) there has been some shifting about due to more infestor play. I'm pretty sure that most of the posters on TL are in this range and from the looks of it, most of us think that the the nerf goes too far.
So what exactly was Blizzard targeting here? Hopefully the change doesn't come in.
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On September 09 2011 23:06 ForevaADrone wrote:
I don't get the comments that claim that infestors were too powerful in a PvZ matchup. What's going on at the top level of play? There are now Zerg players, not an overwhelming amount. Not more than there should be. But the top six at competitions are no longer being dominated by Terran and sometimes Protoss. I'd say that alone is indicative of balance at the top level of play.
What goes on at the bottom end of play? Not much change, as to get infestors out at a good time and use them efficiently requires the decent use of more than 4 hotkeys. If you've mastered that basic level of mechanics, you're probably not in Bronze, Silver or Gold.
So at the mid range (Plat, Diamond, Low Masters) there has been some shifting about due to more infestor play. I'm pretty sure that most of the posters on TL are in this range and from the looks of it, most of us think that the the nerf goes too far.
So what exactly was Blizzard targeting here? Hopefully the change doesn't come in.
What, seriously? The top level of play is completely and utterly dominated by Terran. It always has been. Terran has never, ever gone below 45% win rate against Z or P ever in the history of this game. Right now GSL code S is 20 Terrans, 7 Zerg, 5 Protoss. Protoss has never dominated anything.
The target with this change is in ZvP if the Zerg reaches about 20 infestors you just straight up lose. There is nothing you can do, the game is over. That relegates the matchup to stupid 2-base timing attacks or taking a fast third and desperately trying to deny the Zerg fourth because if they get a fourth base the game is over.
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On September 09 2011 23:02 Xequecal wrote:
Uhm, I'm not exaggerating. Fungal growth generally does more damage than psi storm. It really does. Right now it does 36/47 damage compared to storm's 80, but it has a significantly larger radius to catch more units and you can't move out of it.
Significantly larger radius = 0.5? Your numbers are from before the patch as well, remember Fungal is getting nerfed as well. It's DPS is terrible. You don't seem to know much about Zerg or how they work. You only seem to be viewing things from a Protoss perspective without any understanding of how bad the Zerg ground army actually is when going head to head with a Stalker/Colossus deathball. Fungal won't make 1 iota of difference, trust me. It's going to be just like earlier in the year when it was nigh impossible to stop, because Zerg don't have access to any units that can do it.
The target with this change is in ZvP if the Zerg reaches about 20 infestors you just straight up lose. There is nothing you can do, the game is over. That relegates the matchup to stupid 2-base timing attacks or taking a fast third and desperately trying to deny the Zerg fourth because if they get a fourth base the game is over.
And yet you're championing a change that will mean if Protoss reach 200 food the game is over?
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On September 09 2011 23:17 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:02 Xequecal wrote:
Uhm, I'm not exaggerating. Fungal growth generally does more damage than psi storm. It really does. Right now it does 36/47 damage compared to storm's 80, but it has a significantly larger radius to catch more units and you can't move out of it. Significantly larger radius = 0.5? Your numbers are from before the patch as well, remember Fungal is getting nerfed as well. It's DPS is terrible. You don't seem to know much about Zerg or how they work. You only seem to be viewing things from a Protoss perspective without any understanding of how bad the Zerg ground army actually is when going head to head with a Stalker/Colossus deathball. Fungal won't make 1 iota of difference, trust me. It's going to be just like earlier in the year when it was nigh impossible to stop, because Zerg don't have access to any units that can do it.
Yes, significantly larger. You do know how to find the area of a circle, I hope. In fact fungal covers close to double the area, psi storm's circle has an area of 7.06, fungal growth's circle has an area of 12.56. So yes, it is quite a bit more damaging than psi storm. Even the nerfed version does more damage than psistorm at least to armored. Close to double the area affected and not being able to move away results in that easily. Claiming fungal DPS is terrible is just laughable, you're making yourself look stupid.
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The only thing I'm worried about in ZvP with the NP change is the mid-game zealot/archon/sentry composition. The solution is to do mad kiting with your roaches, but if the map doesn't allow it or he managed to accumulate some sentries and get good FFs out, I feel Zerg is gonna have a really hard time.
Not being able to NP Thors in ZvT mech is gonna really be a pain, though, even with hellion nerf.
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On September 09 2011 21:30 Hane wrote:
I think it's a good change for NP.
Zerg will make corru/infest instead of a lame mass infest. Void rays are not that good vs infest since you can fungal (with the bonus) forever OR fungal + infested.
NP 3 colossus 3/3 can end the game before the infest get sniped.
..and 3 colossus with 3/3 can end the game the other way around if they DON'T get NP:d and now NP is off the table. Just the fact that stealing those 3 units for a few seconds is game-changing says a lot about how powerful they are. A few swipes and whole armies just melt away. Yes I know zerg has corruptors but I think though has been said about them in this thread already.
It will sure be "exiting" if we can get back to having ppl turtling until maxed and A-moving deathballs again like cruncher did to idra etc. Nothing against cruncher though, playing to win is to be expected and I'm just using it as an example. Don't hate the player hate the gaaame! 
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The huge difference is that you can move out of storms but not out of fungal. If caught off guard by fungal your army remains in a ball and the zerg gets a wide arc on you, storm doesn't provide positional benefits like that. Also whoever said roaches werent efficient must be mad, 75/25 for a ranged 140hp unit that deals decent damage?
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Xequecal, sorry that you're bad at this game. I think a good Protoss would sing "I've got 99 problems but a HT ain't one".
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On September 09 2011 23:23 Xequecal wrote:Claiming fungal DPS is terrible is just laughable, you're making yourself look stupid.
Storm does more DPS than fungal, fact. Yet you're trying to make it appear worse. Your bias is really clouding your argument. High Templar are a strong counter to Infestors, Zerg have no counter to Stalker/Colossus play after this change goes through. All this change means is that the matchup is going to swing over in favour of Protoss by a huge amount, just like early in the year.
Also whoever said roaches werent efficient must be mad, 75/25 for a ranged 140hp unit that deals decent damage?
FOOD inefficient. Meaning that having 200 food of Roaches is worse than having 200 food of almost any other unit. If your army is comprised primarily of roaches you'll have a hard time winning batlles with equal food values because most units will beat them at equal food values. And lets face it if your army isn't comprised mostly of roaches, what else is there?
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On September 09 2011 23:29 ForevaADrone wrote:
Xequecal, sorry that you're bad at this game. I think a good Protoss would sing "I've got 99 problems but a HT ain't one".
HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
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On September 09 2011 22:55 Zahki wrote:
Please stop saying thise. The Infestor does not counter 'everything' a Protoss does. It gives the Zerg a fighting chance should the Protoss micro his units poorly, it's the only thing stopping Zerg from getting rolled by deathballs 24/7.
I disagree, you don't need to mismicro in order to get mass NPed as Protoss. As someone else posted, if they get something like 20 infestors the game is over, there is very little you can do. Besides, I think if you're worried about the Void Ray + Colossus death ball, I still think mass NP can still be extremely effective as you can still neural the voids and have them focus fire the colossi or themselves, giving your corrupters the ability to clean up the rest (or infested terrans if you so choose).
Ultras are terrible units, building faster doesn't change the fact they're terrible units. It's like making Carriers build 15s faster and me saying "Don't worry about those pesky infestors, you can use Carriers now!" ignoring all the flaws of why people don't use it in the first place.
You don't seem to understand why NP is integral and neccessary for Zerg to survive late game max food armies unfortunately.
I'm not saying you rush to ultras to try and fight a 2 base timing, but think back to the days where Spanishiwa was becoming popular and he used Ultras a LOT and very effectively against the Protoss. There are problems with the unit, I agree... but there are so many Ultralisk based armies that haven't even been experimented with yet... Nevermind the potential for some kind of ultralisk timing push... A 20 second decrease is HUGE... And if I was getting that for my beloved Carrier I would be jumping for joy and seeing if there was a way to exploit it, instead of immediately shutting down the notion by saying "Well carriers are bad units herp derp... A useless buff."
Ultras can have a place in the Zerg arsenal... They are retardedly effective with good Nydus Worm usage, and the fact that Overseers are cheaper now will only help make Nydus worms better as you are effectively able to have double the amount of changelings running around spotting stuff.
On September 09 2011 22:55 Coopa826 wrote:
So your complaining about how a t2 unit kills a more expensive t3 unit
ARE YOU KIDDING ME
Marine 50/0 against Muta 100/100 ..... period. not necessary to say anything about it
Go open up your unit test map and try.
Yes, I went into the unit tester... That 1 marine died to that one Mutalisk. I'm not saying that lower tier units aren't able to counter higher tier ones... But it's usually a matter of number/cost. A single marine will die to a mutalisk, but 12 Marines will be able to engage 8 Mutalisks.... The point I was trying to make was that a single infestor was basically able to moot a unit that had greater gas and time cost than it's own... And the fact that everyone is saying "Oh the infestor is the only thing keeping me alive!" SAYS something in itself... The unit is too powerful. Hell, Idra doesn't seem to like Infestors but even HE has started using them.
Point is, the one unit is just too strong against pretty well everything, and that needed to change. I hope Blizzard will keep this change. Granted, I am a Protoss player so of course I am happy to hear this news, and no matter what you say I will not change my opinion so I'll agree to disagree... But many Zergs are saying that with Infestors it rewards the Zerg if they catch the Protoss out of position... This is not actually the reality, the reality is that Protoss has to rely on catching the Zerg out of position in order to deal with Infestors, because if the armies are both in position Protoss dies.
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On September 09 2011 22:55 Coopa826 wrote:Show nested quote +I fully support the Neural Parasite change. Fact is, a 150 gas tier 2 unit is basically able to hardcounter more expensive tier 3 units... Combined with the fact that Zerg expand the easiest and will usually have a higher gas income than Terran or Protoss players allowing for greater infestor numbers than the tier 3 units. Fact was, you could not rely on a high tech army as Protoss anymore since you would just have it stolen and work against you. The Zergs that are whining about this change are saying "What can we possibly do against now without Neural parasite?" So your complaining about how a t2 unit kills a more expensive t3 unit ARE YOU KIDDING ME Marine 50/0 against Muta 100/100 ..... period. not necessary to say anything about it Go open up your unit test map and try.
doesnt 1 muta beat 1 marine ?
anyway marines are sopose to be the counter to mutas, they are the only effective unit against mutas and yea they do a good job at it
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On September 09 2011 23:29 Zahki wrote:
Storm does more DPS than fungal, fact. Yet you're trying to make it appear worse. Your bias is really clouding your argument. High Templar are a strong counter to Infestors, Zerg have no counter to Stalker/Colossus play after this change goes through. All this change means is that the matchup is going to swing over in favour of Protoss by a huge amount, just like early in the year.
I've explained, repeatedly now, why fungal does more damage than storm. Please come up with a response better than, "lol no."
Fungal is a perfectly viable counter to stalker/colossus play after this change. Stalkers still get massacred by fungal, sentries get massacred even worse. The colossi in the rear can't shoot infestors fungaling the stalkers. I admit it does create problems at lower skill levels because the Zerg is forced to micro while Protoss can just 1a, but at high level there is no problem.
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On September 09 2011 23:34 Xequecal wrote:
HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better.
I've explained, repeatedly now, why fungal does more damage than storm. Please come up with a response better than, "lol no."
80 damage compared to 47 against armored. Easy to figure out, even taking into account fungals slighly larger radius Storm will do more damage overall even if it hits 1 or 2 less units. You can easily use forcefield to prevent retreats and force enemy armies to take the full damage. I think you're just learning Protoss at the moment, there are really excellent ways to use HTs, you'll find out as you improve.
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On September 09 2011 23:29 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:23 Xequecal wrote:Claiming fungal DPS is terrible is just laughable, you're making yourself look stupid. Storm does more DPS than fungal, fact. Yet you're trying to make it appear worse. Your bias is really clouding your argument. High Templar are a strong counter to Infestors, Zerg have no counter to Stalker/Colossus play after this change goes through. All this change means is that the matchup is going to swing over in favour of Protoss by a huge amount, just like early in the year.
I really can't understand all the zerg tears. Not like you guys seriously used NP to be able to compete with the protoss ball either. Fungal/roach still kill stalkers oh so easy and broodlords roflstomp everything in the ground. That's all zergs did and they still will.
The zerg deathball has been better than protoss since zergs realized infestors are pretty damn good (that was when they buffed it, which wasn't really needed). And if your micro fails hard you can remax in less than a minute via larva stockpiled. With roach/corruptor, even infestors ready to fungal.
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On August 26 2011 00:45 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:29 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote:On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote:
I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!!
Do the math! :D I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important. Unupgraded Hellion damage (vs light) 14 (x3 : 42dmg kills drone, zergling) OLD BFHellion damage (vs light) 24 (x2 : 48dmg kills drone, zergling) NEW BFHellion damage (vs light) 19 (x2 : 38dmg kills zergling, NOT drone) Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before) I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions. I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more . 150/150 for a not so overwhelming damage upgrade does seem pretty meh in comparison - I like that Blizz tries to change the luck-based hellion wars in TvT, but this change really reduces the viability of the upgrade....making it cheaper would probably be a good idea. On August 26 2011 00:26 SaJa wrote:
Nothing for carrier ? Ok nvm ~~ don't beat the dead horse - let the poor carriers rest in peace Don't forget 50/50 concussive shells.
Best value for minerals and gas in the whole game.
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they may as well take NP out of the game now, who would use it over fungal if you cant do it on massive units? what would you want to neural? a stalker?
The only thing i can think of where it would still be preferable to neural would be roach infestor vs stalker/immortal (neural immortals)
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I just want to give my point of view on the neural change...
I've seen many zerg state that now NP will never get researched. In fact, I think this is wrong since now, with the new patch, we will probably see a lot more immortals that are not massive (remember that range buff on roaches....the same will happend).
also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine. This way, early game terran would be nerfed since they would be afraid of dt's. Therefore, they would be obligated to make an engineering bay and some turrets which would set them on the same level economically vs toss. Also, they would need to save energy and don't fully spam it into mules in case their turrets are sufficient enough.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there and for terran...well they never really use the raven except for the 1-1-1...It would be a good time to start using it
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HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
Just confirms my suspicion that you have no idea what you are talking about. HT - the spellcaster with two fucking decent spells and when it runs out of energy turns into a roflstomping mega beast.
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On September 09 2011 23:37 Zahki wrote:
Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better.
Lol, storm against roaches? Storm is useless against roaches. Completely and utterly. It takes three storms to kill a roach if they never move. It takes FIVE if they burrow. Roaches against HTs is so lopsided it's hilarious. They can just attack, force you to storm, then pull back and burrow to heal and now your HTs have no energy. What are you going to do, FF to trap them? Oh right they can go under that and they move faster than HTs even while burrowed so your AE unit can't even keep up if you want to try and chase them.
Ok yeah you can merge them to archons but I never said archons were bad. HTs are bad, archons aren't.
Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
80 damage compared to 47 against armored. Easy to figure out, even taking into account fungals slighly larger radius Storm will do more damage overall even if it hits 1 or 2 less units. You can easily use forcefield to prevent retreats and force enemy armies to take the full damage. I think you're just learning Protoss at the moment, there are really excellent ways to use HTs, you'll find out as you improve.
Fungal has an AoE that's 78% larger than that of storm. That's not "slightly larger." That's a whole lot larger. It does 58.75% of the damage while hitting 178% of the area. This fact ALONE suggests it does more damage (47 * 1.78 * 0.5875 = 83.66) even if the stormed units never move for some reason.
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EPT
