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On September 10 2011 00:40 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 00:29 tripper688 wrote:On September 09 2011 22:59 hugman wrote:On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units. I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead. Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year. Oh really? Are you sure? + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p7m8x.png) keep in mind it's been trending more and more heavily towards Z since May. Zerg as a race. Look at the ZvT graph. Anyway.. we'll see how this shakes out. Even if ZvP becomes fine I don't think it's a good type of nerf (making the ability useless) and the balance in the matchup will still be so precarious. Everything hinges on the Infestor, it's not a well designed matchup atm.
ZvT has more or less been evening out since April. PvT has not. Z still has options like baneling drops, timing attacks, the ultra buff (yes I know the unit is not great but it has its uses, especially with what, a 25% decrease in build time?). Just have to see how it plays out like you said before.
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LOL at the graphs
ZvP 52%-48% totally broken ... nerf NP NOW!! we cant allow zerg to be as good as the other races. FIX THAT IMMEDIATLY!!!!
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On September 09 2011 22:59 hugman wrote:
Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to.
For the 1000th time, very little of the "new ZvP meta" is because Zergs did anything. It comes from balance changes. Zergs aren't smarter than protoss, they got help.
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If Zergs can't neural huge units, would anyone actually opt to neural any non-massive units instead of just fungaling? I would imagine in some situations that taking an HT, ghost, banshee, overseer or raven might be helpful, but it almost invalidates the whole point of the spell. Probably 90%+ of the pro games I see, neural is used only against massive units. Will be interesting to see how things evolve if it goes through.
The only time I've seen neural "abused", so to speak, was when a Protoss player didn't punish the Zerg for expanding and massing 8-10 Infestors. Massing that many, with enough magic to be able to actually neural, forces you to be a bit defensive.
Oh well, we'll see what happens and trust that Blizzard and the pros know what they're doing!
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The only time I've seen neural "abused", so to speak, was when a Protoss player didn't punish the Zerg for expanding and massing 8-10 Infestors. Massing that many, with enough magic to be able to actually neural, forces you to be a bit defensive
massing 8 infestors with enough magic?
if you get promoted to silver your allowed to talk here again
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I feel like waiting for the new patch to start to play in ladder again.
Is boring how many times you need to face 1/1/1 and infestor/brood or infestor/roach in every game.(mid/high diamond)
I'm not good, but man.... its stupid how easy timing pushes like this kills protos...
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I find it incredibly amusing that TvP is a broken matchup, and Blizzard's reaction is to nerf Zerg.
Honestly there are options in ZvP other than infestor (neural isn't the be-all end-all strategy). The real metagame shift we're going to see because of the NP nerf is going to be ZvT, where every terran is going to go 2factory Hellions into mass thor/tank/hellion that hits before BLs.
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The infestor has 3 spells which are very useful depending on game situation, so you could never be wrong with going mass infestors.
anti air, support dps, energy dump -> IT
anti mass units, anti cloak, support dps -> fungal
anti T3 units -> NP
I thought they would make massive immun to the snare (NOT the dmg), but NP change is a surprise.
I don't want to blance-theorycraft, time and the pros will tell. Think about the thor energy change, that was removed pretty fast.
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On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote:
also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there
Actually it will make a huge difference for zerg since on crossmap spawns on larger maps they will have to blindly make evo chambers and spores which will hinder droning, delay expanding and significantly hurt zerg economy. If you've watched pro matches you have probably seen how (even with the current state) every DT rush is just narrowly defended if it's defended at all.
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On September 10 2011 01:02 Coopa826 wrote:
LOL at the graphs
ZvP 52%-48% totally broken ... nerf NP NOW!! we cant allow zerg to be as good as the other races. FIX THAT IMMEDIATLY!!!!
Do you not realize the part where it's trended completely to Z since the graph ended and PvZ is at like...35% in Korea at the highest levels right now? Or maybe you're just here to troll.
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Although the change negatively affects ZvP (I feel like this is to a) encourage Ultra use and b) encourage mothership use (?!)), I'm really concerned about ZvT.
ZvT is already a tough match up now vs. Terran mech. BFH + slow pushing tank line + 3-4 thors wrecks almost everything Zerg has. Without NP being able to take Thors (who do bonus damage vs. armored), I honestly don't know what to do against a mid-game thor/tank/BFH/SCV push. How is it not an auto-win??
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On September 09 2011 23:59 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote:
also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine. This way, early game terran would be nerfed since they would be afraid of dt's. Therefore, they would be obligated to make an engineering bay and some turrets which would set them on the same level economically vs toss. Also, they would need to save energy and don't fully spam it into mules in case their turrets are sufficient enough This is incredibly broken. Just think about PvP for a second. It takes 105 seconds to get a robotics facility + observer, compared to 100 for a dark shrine. You could do 1 gate core shrine and still easily beat a 4 gate with DTs that would be out before you get hit, and your DTs would also be out before observer against any robo opening that's safe against a 4 gate. Fast DTs would be the ONLY tech option in Protoss mirror.
well...in fact it would be great because it would break the 4 gate meta game that would disappear (however it would still be a reasonable build against anything else than dt's). Beside that, if the observer was not able to get out in time, we would see a lot more forge play which also means more fast expand play that would be insanely refreshing in PvP. Also, since dt shrine does not require a twilight in this case, we could simply nerf the build time of the DS by 20 seconds lets say and then an observer would still get out in time and we would still be able to force engineering bay and evo chamber in both pvt and pvz!
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Infestors can't NP massive units???
Well hell, what other units would an infestor WANT to NP?
Sure, maybe seige tank and void ray, but now what does Zerg do about Colossi, Archons, Thors???
Very questionable. We'll have to see how this plays out.
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On September 10 2011 01:42 Luftmensch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote:
also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there Actually it will make a huge difference for zerg since on crossmap spawns on larger maps they will have to blindly make evo chambers and spores which will hinder droning, delay expanding and significantly hurt zerg economy. If you've watched pro matches you have probably seen how (even with the current state) every DT rush is just narrowly defended if it's defended at all.
well this is exactly my point, right now I believe the problem of zerg is not the infestors and stuff... yes infestors are too strong however I believe this is only because zerg can bank so much ressources and then spend it on 20 infestors way too easily. The problem with zerg is that you can expand way too easily and defend it way too easily. Crippling the droning would also be a good thing since droning is way too easy and fast as it is right now. And even then, it would not be that crippled since you would need only what? let's say 5 drones to defend your bases (1 in evo (that is generally already made prior to the patch) and 4 in 4 spore crawlers (2 at each base)).
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On September 10 2011 02:14 TheTurk wrote:
Infestors can't NP massive units???
Well hell, what other units would an infestor WANT to NP?
Sure, maybe seige tank and void ray, but now what does Zerg do about Colossi, Archons, Thors???
Very questionable. We'll have to see how this plays out.
Templars, Ghosts, Raven. I think David Kim wants NP to have the same power as Hunter Seeker missile.
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This is so absurd- Zerg already only has one offensive caster, as opposed to the two of the other race, and it's getting nerfed into oblivion.
Even the slightest bit of HT or ghost control can completely destroy all the energy on an infestor ball- it's not even remotely hard. The only reason we're getting nerfed so hard is because so many idiot Terran/Protoss's keep stubbornly going bio-balls or gateway/colossus forces instead of investing a small amount of resources into the tech that can hardcounter infestors. We're getting nerfed because they're too stupid to use their hard counter. This would be like banelings getting nerfed because Terrans only go mass marine versus them.
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I don't get blizzard -__- Hellions are clearly OP, it got a very small nerf. Infestor is on the border of OPnes, NERF NP TO OBLIVION QUICK!!! Also, I don't get what we are suppose to NP now, maybe we'll have to make like 30 infestors to NP all the blink stalker army of the toss?
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I agree with Irishladdie =/ i dont see the point why NP is nerfed, i understood fungal but there... welcome back roach/hydra/corruptor ?
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What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
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EPT
