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On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
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On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:37 Zahki wrote:
Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better. Lol, storm against roaches? Storm is useless against roaches. Completely and utterly. It takes three storms to kill a roach if they never move. It takes FIVE if they burrow. Roaches against HTs is so lopsided it's hilarious. They can just attack, force you to storm, then pull back and burrow to heal and now your HTs have no energy. What are you going to do, FF to trap them? Oh right they can go under that and they move faster than HTs even while burrowed so your AE unit can't even keep up if you want to try and chase them. Ok yeah you can merge them to archons but I never said archons were bad. HTs are bad, archons aren't. Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
you know what's funny
roaches are called the counter to ht's (till broods/ultras, that's the only other counter)
when in reality, they don't counter high templars at all. they're just the only unit that doesnt get 1-2 shotted by storm so you HAVE to go roaches. which is why you used to see a lot of high templar immortal.
and storms are still good vs roaches. you make them sound useless, that's simply not true lol.
infestors are getting nerfed cool, w/e. I think neural should be revoked and infested terran should be nerfed though.
protosses are going to go back to "sup i can make stalker collossi and I can do it every game and win 90% of the time since there's no actual counter to collossi till brood/ultra." (if youre building corruptors to counter collossi, then you're losing the game.)
im not really sure why neural is in the game now though, i mean what's worth neuraling? tanks and immortals? is THAT even worth it? would a protoss even bother to blink a few stalkers forward to snipe an infestor neuraling an immortal? idk.
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On September 09 2011 23:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
broodlords roflstomp everything in the ground.
And if your micro fails hard you can remax in less than a minute via larva stockpiled.
The problem is not so much in the very late game as Zerg T3 units can deal with the protoss deathball yes, but to be able to support Ultra's/Broodlords/stockpile larva you need to get to that point first and thats the metagame change im not looking forward to.
This change opens a couple of funny timings for Protoss where they have 3/4 Collosus and Zerg can't have t3 units out at that time. Which (unless a full surround is possible) leaves zerg with no units to touch the collosi. No zerg wants to make corruptors against an even supply protoss army as you'll either loose all your corruptors before the collosi die, or your ground army melts leaving you with awesome compositions like 10 corruptors vs a protoss gateway army.
I personally used NP to secure my way into the late game, but with the patch ill be sweating in the midgame to survive in order to have a shot at taking the deathball out later with higher tech units.
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On September 09 2011 23:37 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:34 Xequecal wrote:
HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter. Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better. Show nested quote +
I've explained, repeatedly now, why fungal does more damage than storm. Please come up with a response better than, "lol no."
80 damage compared to 47 against armored. Easy to figure out, even taking into account fungals slighly larger radius Storm will do more damage overall even if it hits 1 or 2 less units. You can easily use forcefield to prevent retreats and force enemy armies to take the full damage. I think you're just learning Protoss at the moment, there are really excellent ways to use HTs, you'll find out as you improve. 
You do not know what you are talking about. Learn maths first, then post comments including maths, otherwise you just sound stupid to anyone who knows how to count.
The area difference means that12.56/7.06 = 1.78 times more units are affected. If you want to normalise the total damage, it is 80 * x for storm vs 47 * 1.78 * x = 83.66 * x for fungal. That means it already does more total damage against armoured units than storm does. It does not take into account the stun mechanic and the fact that storm can be partially avoided if you move your units, effectively dealing much less than 80 dmg per unit.
The fact is that PvZ is dominated by Z because of Infestor and Blizzard and most of the rest of the SC2 scene seems to agree that it is too strong, but you just want to QQ.
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On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote:
also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine. This way, early game terran would be nerfed since they would be afraid of dt's. Therefore, they would be obligated to make an engineering bay and some turrets which would set them on the same level economically vs toss. Also, they would need to save energy and don't fully spam it into mules in case their turrets are sufficient enough
This is incredibly broken. Just think about PvP for a second. It takes 105 seconds to get a robotics facility + observer, compared to 100 for a dark shrine. You could do 1 gate core shrine and still easily beat a 4 gate with DTs that would be out before you get hit, and your DTs would also be out before observer against any robo opening that's safe against a 4 gate. Fast DTs would be the ONLY tech option in Protoss mirror.
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On September 09 2011 23:52 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that. Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
Infested T is still really strong vs P macro style, bling drops are really good, corrupters are pretty good. You can still FG blink stalkers and colossus in place.
PvZ is currently a lot like ZvP was roach/hydra which had a tiny window to do anything. This patch more than anything put infestors in the support role and stops Zerg from winning unless P hits a timing window and can macro vs zerg.
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All you zerg complaining about this nerf have it wrong. You forget about banelings. Baneling drops crush robo play. You will see this more often now. I think this diversifies PVZ play greatyl and creates more skill-based play. You will see two mid-game routes:
1) Zerg goes ling/bling/infestor. Then toss needs to go charge / archon. bling does nothing to archon. Toss needs to have robo tech switch ready to turn on ASAP as zerg will start to make roaches.
2) Zerg goes roach/corruptor. Then toss goes heavy robo with col and immo. Get col to force corrupters, then heavy immo.
This is my view of the change. So now it's more fair and strategic. You have to depend on scouting to prepare the correct tech paths. Before, with NP, toss would just get neuraled any tech route and auto-loss against a good zerg.
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On September 10 2011 00:02 Rigorous wrote:
All you zerg complaining about this nerf have it wrong. You forget about banelings. Baneling drops crush robo play. You will see this more often now. I think this diversifies PVZ play greatyl and creates more skill-based play. You will see two mid-game routes:
1) Zerg goes ling/bling/infestor. Then toss needs to go charge / archon. bling does nothing to archon. Toss needs to have robo tech switch ready to turn on ASAP as zerg will start to make roaches.
2) Zerg goes roach/corruptor. Then toss goes heavy robo with col and immo. Get col to force corrupters, then heavy immo.
This is my view of the change. So now it's more fair and strategic. You have to depend on scouting to prepare the correct tech paths. Before, with NP, toss would just get neuraled any tech route and auto-loss against a good zerg.
Void rays deal with banelings in overlords pretty well. Infestors are still going to be the go-to unit, for their high DPS and providing anti-air units to an army that usually does not possess it. It's just going to be less lopsided.
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On September 09 2011 23:58 Lythis_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
broodlords roflstomp everything in the ground.
And if your micro fails hard you can remax in less than a minute via larva stockpiled. The problem is not so much in the very late game as Zerg T3 units can deal with the protoss deathball yes, but to be able to support Ultra's/Broodlords/stockpile larva you need to get to that point first and thats the metagame change im not looking forward to. This change opens a couple of funny timings for Protoss where they have 3/4 Collosus and Zerg can't have t3 units out at that time. Which (unless a full surround is possible) leaves zerg with no units to touch the collosi. No zerg wants to make corruptors against an even supply protoss army as you'll either loose all your corruptors before the collosi die, or your ground army melts leaving you with awesome compositions like 10 corruptors vs a protoss gateway army. I personally used NP to secure my way into the late game, but with the patch ill be sweating in the midgame to survive in order to have a shot at taking the deathball out later with higher tech units.
Well I understand you like the current metagame as Zerg because you like to win games  It's pretty much: 1 base protoss is unplayable, so Zerg can take the third as an answer to the FE with no risk and drone up hardcore, then keep trading evenly thanks to infestors all game while having map control and denying the third to the P.
Honestly if there's no map presence during the game, protoss can't take expos AND it has no real harrassment capabilities other than DTs... The protoss ball of units must be stronger to have a game. Otherwise it's just starvation.
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I don't think it will break ZvP, but I think it's going a bit overboard to nerf two abilities at once, especially considering that Protoss hasn't been struggling for nearly as long as Zerg was and the fact that they aren't touching the Ghost.
I mean come on, Zerg play today in ZvP is way evolved from how it was 5 months ago. Can you say the same about Protoss play?
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This infestor change is going to make playing against deathballs really hard again. Yes there are a lot o other viable options like baneling drops, ultra/baneling/infestor, standard roach/corruptor armies but most of these builds require that zerg does no big mistakes and protoss makes some positional mistake at least. But all of this was before ultra time decrease and fungal buff. I'm not comfortable with these changes to say the least but lets see how we can adopt these changes.
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On September 10 2011 00:13 hugman wrote:
I don't think it will break ZvP, but I think it's going a bit overboard to nerf two abilities at once, especially considering that Protoss hasn't been struggling for nearly as long as Zerg was and the fact that they aren't touching the Ghost.
I mean come on, Zerg play today in ZvP is way evolved from how it was 5 months ago. Can you say the same about Protoss play? Two things to take into account, Zerg had a lot of help "evolving". You could even say that their path was guided by an intelligent creator. P early game was nerfed to help PvP, this means Z can play more greedily. P late game was nerfed with the infestor buff. Zergs new style isn't because they're more innovative, its because they were given more tools.
On top of that, PvZ has changed with our new tools. You see a lot more HT play (you never used to HT vZ) to both counter Infestors and utilize new Archons.
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ZvP will be harder but managable, but honestly ZvT how on earth are you going to beat early thor helion pushes without stocking roaches for ages beforehand, and how are you going to beat ghost mech in the late game, its already nearly impossible, not being able to NP the thors will make it even harder.
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On September 10 2011 00:23 Iksf wrote:
ZvP will be harder but managable, but honestly ZvT how on earth are you going to beat early thor helion pushes without stocking roaches for ages beforehand, and how are you going to beat ghost mech in the late game, its already nearly impossible, not being able to NP the thors will make it even harder. Thor rushes are underutilized in all match ups, I'm really scared of them becoming more standard because of how much potential the unit has. That said, the fact that its not a standard push means responses haven't been as explored in depth. There could be a timing that kills it before it comes, hopefully.
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On September 09 2011 22:59 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units. I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead. Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year.
Oh really? Are you sure?
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p7m8x.png) keep in mind it's been trending more and more heavily towards Z since May.
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On September 10 2011 00:29 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:59 hugman wrote:On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units. I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead. Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year. Oh really? Are you sure? + Show Spoiler +keep in mind it's been trending more and more heavily towards Z since May.
Zerg as a race.
Look at the ZvT graph.
Anyway.. we'll see how this shakes out. Even if ZvP becomes fine I don't think it's a good type of nerf (making the ability useless) and the balance in the matchup will still be so precarious. Everything hinges on the Infestor, it's not a well designed matchup atm.
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On September 09 2011 23:52 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that. Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
You have no idea what you're talking about... Coca beat Naniwa on Shakuras Plateau with very little (if any) Infestor usage, and opting to go for the old-school Roach Hydra Corrupter mix.
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I totaly agree with an Apreciate your whole post.
I disagree with your thinking that it'll go back to FF colo battles because to be honest Baneling drops are still rediculis's effective just watch cocca from the last mlg.
But god damm. NP not hitting massives anymore? that's probably the biggest game changer they've done sense beta if it goes though.
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On September 10 2011 00:44 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 23:52 hugman wrote:On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that. Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say. You have no idea what you're talking about... Coca beat Naniwa on Shakuras Plateau with very little (if any) Infestor usage, and opting to go for the old-school Roach Hydra Corrupter mix.
Oh no, you saw one game where it worked so my point is moot.
Naniwa invested a ton in stargate stuff that never did anything, he let CoCa get away with a super greedy 3rd that he could've punished, he got TC + started blink when he wasn't safe to do so = more wasted resources, he got his 3rd Colossus sniped as it spawned etc. He did tons of mistakes, that doesn't make the composition CoCa had good against a max Protoss.
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Also Nani in his mind would have been compensating for the fact infestors could enter play at any time, not having to worry about them at all would let him hard counter CoCa better
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EPT
