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On September 09 2011 21:12 Thraundil wrote:In extension of my above post, here are some swift data on corruptor vs void ray. All is focusfire. Corruptor: 200 hp 2 standard armor - armored unit. 14 dmg, 20 vs massive. Range 6 speed 1.9 Void ray: 100 shields, 150 hp. 0 standard armor - armored unit. 6 dmg, 10 vs armored. Range 6 speed 0.6. (8 dmg, 16 vs armored at full power). 2 corruptors vs 1 void ray, 0/0 on both: Without corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 20 hp left. With corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 103 hp left. 3 corruptors vs 2 void rays, 0/0 on both (this is 450/300/6 worth of corruptors vs 500/300/6 worth of void rays): Without corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 50 shields and full hp. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 100 hp. 6 corruptors vs 4 void rays, 0/0 on both: Without corruption: Void rays win, 2 survive one with 68 hp other full. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 90 shields and full hp. 12 corruptors vs 8 void rays, +1 attack on both: Without corruption: void rays win. 3 survive, with full hp and one taking ~50 shield damage. With corruption: void rays win, 2 survive, one taking 48 life damage. As you can see, disregarding upgrades, with equal resources and supply invested void rays beat corruptors in a bad way - and the more void rays there is the worst it gets. This means that just to handle the supporting void rays, zerg needs at least double the amount of corruptors as void rays - this is not only more resources, but also more supply. Then there also need to be more corruptors left over to deal with the actual colossi. Oh, and if the corruptors fire on the void rays first, the entire ground force of the zerg will disintegrate. Its a loss/loss situation to answer colossi with corruptors if the protoss adds void rays to the mix. Show nested quote +The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position True. But corruptor is range 6, viking is range 9. And vikings do alot more anti-air damage than corruptors for a cheapter cost. For example 2 microed vikings kill a void ray while both surviving - even though the void ray costs more.
Your calculations seem to be correct. But as always, the game doesn't depend on unit vs unit stats. All i want to say is that there are more good strategies (besides almighty infestor + random unit) to counter the death ball which require micro and good gaming sense. Like mana in an interview said: P has to use all kind of units to survive in the current state. I think SC2 will now be a bit more interesting and versatile. I'm looking forward to baneling drops again or use of nydus. And i'm saying this as P because i have to micro properly which i can't when my army is fungaled by 15 infestors.
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United States889 Posts
The NP change in my opinion is like the US government worrying about a college football playoff in the midst of 9% employment. The mass infestor style is not what Blizzard is understandably looking for in the matchup, but they nerfed literally the only unit that gives Zerg a fighting chance in the matchup. Once P gets to a critical mass of colossus, the only prayer Z had was to NP a couple of colossus and hope they live (the infestors) long enough to get a couple shots off.
The problem is that Z has no good way of handling colossus now. None. Blizzard clearly wants corrupters to be the answer, but in that case the corrupter needs a serious buff, either in range or speed or both. Taking away Z's only answer and not giving them another is a terrible, terrible idea. The deathball is going to roll, roll, roll, and Z's are going to get steamrolled in the months it will take for Blizzard to realize how shortsighted this change is.
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On September 09 2011 21:12 Thraundil wrote:In extension of my above post, here are some swift data on corruptor vs void ray. All is focusfire. Corruptor: 200 hp 2 standard armor - armored unit. 14 dmg, 20 vs massive. Range 6 speed 1.9 Void ray: 100 shields, 150 hp. 0 standard armor - armored unit. 6 dmg, 10 vs armored. Range 6 speed 0.6. (8 dmg, 16 vs armored at full power). 2 corruptors vs 1 void ray, 0/0 on both: Without corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 20 hp left. With corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 103 hp left. 3 corruptors vs 2 void rays, 0/0 on both (this is 450/300/6 worth of corruptors vs 500/300/6 worth of void rays): Without corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 50 shields and full hp. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 100 hp. 6 corruptors vs 4 void rays, 0/0 on both: Without corruption: Void rays win, 2 survive one with 68 hp other full. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 90 shields and full hp. 12 corruptors vs 8 void rays, +1 attack on both: Without corruption: void rays win. 3 survive, with full hp and one taking ~50 shield damage. With corruption: void rays win, 2 survive, one taking 48 life damage. As you can see, disregarding upgrades, with equal resources and supply invested void rays beat corruptors in a bad way - and the more void rays there is the worst it gets. This means that just to handle the supporting void rays, zerg needs at least double the amount of corruptors as void rays - this is not only more resources, but also more supply. Then there also need to be more corruptors left over to deal with the actual colossi. Oh, and if the corruptors fire on the void rays first, the entire ground force of the zerg will disintegrate. Its a loss/loss situation to answer colossi with corruptors if the protoss adds void rays to the mix. Show nested quote +The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position True. But corruptor is range 6, viking is range 9. And vikings do alot more anti-air damage than corruptors for a cheapter cost. For example 2 microed vikings kill a void ray while both surviving - even though the void ray costs more.
But if they are getting colossus AND void ray then they won't have enough gas to match your corruptor investment, 4 colossus means 6 less void rays so if you go pure roach corruptor you will have significantly more corruptors than he will have void rays, as roaches are more cost efficient than both colossus and stalkers
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Your calculations seem to be correct. But as always, the game doesn't depend on unit vs unit stats. All i want to say is that there are more good strategies (besides almighty infestor + random unit) to counter the death ball which require micro and good gaming sense. Like mana in an interview said: P has to use all kind of units to survive in the current state. I think SC2 will now be a bit more interesting and versatile. I'm looking forward to baneling drops again or use of nydus. And i'm saying this as P because i have to micro properly which i can't when my army is fungaled by 15 infestors.
True, its not unit vs unit stats. I posted the above in the hopes that someone from blizzard will read this and realise what they are, in fact, doing. I agree with your micro part, though. Fungal seem to be the zerg forcefield; it takes micro out of the equation and makes the engagements sort of "stand still and shoot and hope you dont die". I too would like some change here - I dislike the infestor style. But its the only thing that works at the moment. There simply is no other good way to survive the midgame pushes.
But if they are getting colossus AND void ray then they won't have enough gas to match your corruptor investment, 4 colossus means 6 less void rays so if you go pure roach corruptor you will have significantly more corruptors than he will have void rays.
Oh that was my primary tactic before the infestor buff where people started to realise infestors where actually awesome. I got stomped unless I majorly outmacroed my opponent - and even then, it was close. Why? In the exact moment the protoss moves out, I must have the perfect number of corruptors. Make too many, and your roach count will suffer and die to stalker/sentry. Make too few, and well, yeah, your roach count will die to the colossi. This was very hard to predict, I remember, and I often lost simply for making 5 corruptors too many.
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On September 09 2011 21:43 Arrian wrote:
The NP change in my opinion is like the US government worrying about a college football playoff in the midst of 9% employment. The mass infestor style is not what Blizzard is understandably looking for in the matchup, but they nerfed literally the only unit that gives Zerg a fighting chance in the matchup. Once P gets to a critical mass of colossus, the only prayer Z had was to NP a couple of colossus and hope they live (the infestors) long enough to get a couple shots off.
The problem is that Z has no good way of handling colossus now. None. Blizzard clearly wants corrupters to be the answer, but in that case the corrupter needs a serious buff, either in range or speed or both. Taking away Z's only answer and not giving them another is a terrible, terrible idea. The deathball is going to roll, roll, roll, and Z's are going to get steamrolled in the months it will take for Blizzard to realize how shortsighted this change is.
Fungal growth still works. The colossi are in the back. You can easily just spam your 9 range fungal at the front of the army until everything dies. If he moves his colossi forward, they become easy to snipe.
Currently infestors are anti-everything units in ZvP that have no counter. Templar do not work, as feedback has the same range as fungal and NP so it is impossible to prevent the infestors from casting their spells. You cannot make lots of small, cheap units, because fungal massacres that, and NP counters the strategy of making large, expensive units.
Given Zerg's large resource advantage by design infestors are just too strong. Protoss was willing to pay 150 gas for a single storm when amulet existed, Zerg can abuse sacrificing 150 gas infestors for a single fungal even more effectively.
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United States889 Posts
On September 09 2011 22:10 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 21:43 Arrian wrote:
The NP change in my opinion is like the US government worrying about a college football playoff in the midst of 9% employment. The mass infestor style is not what Blizzard is understandably looking for in the matchup, but they nerfed literally the only unit that gives Zerg a fighting chance in the matchup. Once P gets to a critical mass of colossus, the only prayer Z had was to NP a couple of colossus and hope they live (the infestors) long enough to get a couple shots off.
The problem is that Z has no good way of handling colossus now. None. Blizzard clearly wants corrupters to be the answer, but in that case the corrupter needs a serious buff, either in range or speed or both. Taking away Z's only answer and not giving them another is a terrible, terrible idea. The deathball is going to roll, roll, roll, and Z's are going to get steamrolled in the months it will take for Blizzard to realize how shortsighted this change is. Fungal growth still works. The colossi are in the back. You can easily just spam your 9 range fungal at the front of the army until everything dies. If he moves his colossi forward, they become easy to snipe. Currently infestors are anti-everything units in ZvP that have no counter. Templar do not work, as feedback has the same range as fungal and NP so it is impossible to prevent the infestors from casting their spells. You cannot make lots of small, cheap units, because fungal massacres that, and NP counters the strategy of making large, expensive units. Given Zerg's large resource advantage by design infestors are just too strong. Protoss was willing to pay 150 gas for a single storm when amulet existed, Zerg can abuse sacrificing 150 gas infestors for a single fungal even more effectively.
I'm not arguing that the infestor didnt need a nerf, I'm arguing that Blizzard should have buffed something else to help handle the colossus deathball. Remember, Colossi have range 9 too when upgraded, so sniping the slow infestor, whether by colossus, blink stalkers, or otherwise works without much problem if they're caught out of position (as they require considerable babysitting this isn't too difficult).
Yes, infestors are too powerful in the matchup though I doubt this was really the solution to the problem. The problem is that colossus are still too powerful in numbers 4>, and Zerg has no answer minus the infestor. Remember hydra/roach/corrupter, the clunky, expensive composition that P's found out they could exploit and destroy? That's Zerg's next best answer. FFs make blings impossible to use, infestors are now slow, expensive, and they can only injure stalkers meaningfully. Roaches, hydras, zerglings, and mutas get eaten up by the death ball...so really, what did zerg have but the infestor? Zergs began to build a ridiculous number of infestors not because they were enormously good (though they were before the nerfs) but because they literally have no other options. That's why I call this change short sighted, because no suitable alternative was provided to Zerg players. They just have to deal with it and go back to compositions that get habitually rolled by the death ball.
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On September 09 2011 22:23 Arrian wrote:
I'm not arguing that the infestor didnt need a nerf, I'm arguing that Blizzard should have buffed something else to help handle the colossus deathball. Remember, Colossi have range 9 too when upgraded, so sniping the slow infestor, whether by colossus, blink stalkers, or otherwise works without much problem if they're caught out of position (as they require considerable babysitting this isn't too difficult).
Yes, infestors are too powerful in the matchup though I doubt this was really the solution to the problem. The problem is that colossus are still too powerful in numbers 4>, and Zerg has no answer minus the infestor. Remember hydra/roach/corrupter, the clunky, expensive composition that P's found out they could exploit and destroy? That's Zerg's next best answer. FFs make blings impossible to use, infestors are now slow, expensive, and they can only injure stalkers meaningfully. Roaches, hydras, zerglings, and mutas get eaten up by the death ball...so really, what did zerg have but the infestor? Zergs began to build a ridiculous number of infestors not because they were enormously good (though they were before the nerfs) but because they literally have no other options. That's why I call this change short sighted, because no suitable alternative was provided to Zerg players. They just have to deal with it and go back to compositions that get habitually rolled by the death ball.
What happens in the late game is Zerg masses so many infestors that sniping them becomes irrelevant. Sure, you can burn down 6-8 of them instantly with your colossi. So what? He has 20 more that still NP everything you have before you can get off a third volley. Templar are similarly useless. He has 30 infestors and only needs 4-5 of them to live to mass fungal your entire army to death while it sits there helpless. You can succeed in exploding large numbers of them with feedback and it just doesn't matter.
Infestors are still great as a support unit. Against colossi, you can use your roaches to tank while fungal spamming his support units. You don't have to get in range of the colossi. At that point it's your AE damage against his and while his AE damage is better, you have a lot more resources to make a lot more units.
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On September 09 2011 22:10 Xequecal wrote:
Currently infestors are anti-everything units in ZvP that have no counter. Templar do not work, as feedback has the same range as fungal and NP so it is impossible to prevent the infestors from casting their spells. You cannot make lots of small, cheap units, because fungal massacres that, and NP counters the strategy of making large, expensive units.
You know this is total bollocks right? High Templar are not only a counter to Infestors they're a highly effective one. Zerg players aren't robots, they're not going to manage to catch your Templar right on the edge of the fungal range even 50% of the time. Destiny, one of the best Infestor users there is still gets his Festors massacred by Templar a lot. Have you seen Idra use infestors? He doesn't keep them on their maximum rage at all times, in fact he keeps them right next to his army, easily close enough to get Feedbacks off. These are not scrubs, they're some of the worlds top players, and yet they still get their Infestors feedbacked, if it's possible for them to get hit you should be able to hit your opponents with it as well.
Infestors cover the massive gaps the Zerg arsenal has at the moment. I can't see this change going too well, maybe if they made the effort to make Hydralisks a viable unit? We're going back to the bad old days of having to have perfect rations of corruptors to fight Colossus deathballs and I don't think anyone wants that,
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On September 09 2011 22:30 Zahki wrote:
You know this is total bollocks right? High Templar are not only a counter to Infestors they're a highly effective one. Zerg players aren't robots, they're not going to manage to catch your Templar right on the edge of the fungal range even 50% of the time. Destiny, one of the best Infestor users there is still gets his Festors massacred by Templar a lot.
Infestors cover the massive gaps the Zerg arsenal has at the moment. I can't see this change going too well, maybe if they made the effort to make Hydralisks a viable unit? We're going back to the bad old days of having to have perfect rations of corruptors to fight Colossus deathballs and I don't think anyone wants that,
No, they're not going to manage to catch your templar like that. That's not the point. If an infestor casts fungal and then immediately dies, it's already paid for itself. Since fungal/feedback have the same range, you absolutely cannot prevent fungals from going off with feedback. Remember amulet? Protoss was perfectly willing to blow 150 gas on sacrificial templar that would storm once and then immediately die. Zerg is the race with the most resources, this is even more effective for them.
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I hope they make the corruptor's ability an autocast feature with a "shorter" cooldown to compensate for the change in neural parasite.
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I honestly think im more worried about meching terrans than np'ing collosus. Since i go the ling bane drop infestor style in zvp, usually if they go collo they don't live long enough to do damage because all the support units vanish from the banes and then the collo are free pickings.
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On September 09 2011 22:37 Xequecal wrote:
No, they're not going to manage to catch your templar like that. That's not the point. If an infestor casts fungal and then immediately dies, it's already paid for itself. Since fungal/feedback have the same range, you absolutely cannot prevent fungals from going off with feedback. Remember amulet? Protoss was perfectly willing to blow 150 gas on sacrificial templar that would storm once and then immediately die. Zerg is the race with the most resources, this is even more effective for them.
You are vastly overexaggerating the damage Fungal Growth does. It's negligable, an Infestor that gets a single Fungal off has definitely NOT paid for itself, you can't even kill workers with a single fungal. Don't exaggerate, if your point is good enough then you don't need to say stuff like "He'll still have 20 Infestors left" No-one gets that many infestors except Destiny, and he loses a lot of them to feedbacks, snipes, EMp, etc every single game.
Basically this change means the ONLY counter to Colossi Zerg have is the Corruptor and I think it's been well documented how bad the corruptor is. Remember early in the year where a Zerg would get a few too many Corruptors and get romemd by Blink Stalkers, or too few and Colossi would absolutely ruin Roaches by the dozen? Do we want to go back to that? Shouldn't Zerg get a more effective counter before we start taking away one of the few units they have that can actually turn the tables of a huge battle?
Roaches are not food efficient, Hydras are terrible, Ultras are even worse, there's not exactly much for the Zerg to fall back on to fight off a Protoss force with superior firepower. We'll go back to a 200 food protoss army being insta win.
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Back to silly early roach agression I guess... Roach Hydra Corruptor was never any good to begin with
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I fully support the Neural Parasite change. Fact is, a 150 gas tier 2 unit is basically able to hardcounter more expensive tier 3 units... Combined with the fact that Zerg expand the easiest and will usually have a higher gas income than Terran or Protoss players allowing for greater infestor numbers than the tier 3 units. Fact was, you could not rely on a high tech army as Protoss anymore since you would just have it stolen and work against you. The Zergs that are whining about this change are saying "What can we possibly do against now without Neural parasite?"
That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
Do not discount the Ultra build time either guys... a 20 second buff is a LOT. You'll be able to field Ultras much more quickly now and I think that has to become part of the Zerg metagame. You can still go Ling/Infestor early game to be able to hold off a bunch of different kinds of pushes, but instead of continuing to build infestors, the zerg should now try and make a wave of Ultras to punch through. Ultralisks have a lot of potential, and with the buff I think they might become quite playable.
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NP nerf is just ridicolous. Seems like Blizzard despiratly wants zerg to be the worst race in the game.
Blabla infestor is strong and if i dont counter it i will get punished for that.
Its the same with the Colossus. If i dont get NP (byebye) or Corruptor i get raped really badly.
Roaches CANNOT tank aoe damage of colossus. I dont know what you guys are talkin about but thats just not possible. Sorry but thats ridicolous.
So Terrans started to realize they have a unit called GHOST. and after exactly ONE YEAR they started using it (funday monday does not count -.-)
BUt Protoss player? As idra said they are retarded lol x).
I just help you out here a little bit.
Protoss has a unit called hightemplar. And with a single click you can kill an infestor. Seems great right? but the only thing toss player are able to is : HERP DERP infestoorzz imBa herp derp.
I dont wanna talk about the BLueflame icon and the mass use of hellions after that. SERIOUSLY?
Same in ZvP. Ever tried to NP a tank? no matter if on open field or from cliff ... Since Tanks do absurd amount of damage to armoured units BOOOM infestor no more.
So now that after one year of being the worst race in the game Zerg got a chance with the infestor to play on the same level.
but one month past and Protoss player started complaining and IMMEDIATLY infestors gets nerfed.
1. FUngal nerf
2. Speed nerf
3. Herp Derp infestorz op nerf
So now what am i going to do against t1 gateway units + a few colossi?
Roach Hydra Ling Baneling-drop INfestor Corruptor?
maybe some mutas cause void rays rape corruptor?
Hey but wait there is hope.
We can get the most useless unit called Ultralisk now faster.
BLIZZARD. FIX THE DAMN Ultra before putting it into the game. those ultras dont move better than dragoons ffs.
TIme to switch to toss again cause death ball is unstoppable again.
in 2 months toss will complain about emp being to strong ... so emp will only drain energy then not shields anymore. Mark my words
So for what can i use Neural parasite now? Zealots? sentries? LOL
Archons and Colossi were the only unit worth being np'ed but now its not possible anymore.
Dont talk about my mistakes there. Im german. And im angry and upset. Peace out
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And to Crazedmike, nope, you cant stop a good 2 base colo push without neural parasite as ling/infestor. It just removes the viability of doing it altogether. And do you think you can get ultras up in time to react to it? Think again.
You would survive by going banelingdrops, but then P just doesnt push and you sunk a whole lot of gas into something you wont get too much use of right away. P gets a third, and you are so far behind in economy just to stop a push that he didnt need to go through with.
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On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:
That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me.
Please stop saying thise. The Infestor does not counter 'everything' a Protoss does. It gives the Zerg a fighting chance should the Protoss micro his units poorly, it's the only thing stopping Zerg from getting rolled by deathballs 24/7.
Do not discount the Ultra build time either guys... a 20 second buff is a LOT. You'll be able to field Ultras much more quickly now and I think that has to become part of the Zerg metagame.
Ultras are terrible units, building faster doesn't change the fact they're terrible units. It's like making Carriers build 15s faster and me saying "Don't worry about those pesky infestors, you can use Carriers now!" ignoring all the flaws of why people don't use it in the first place.
You don't seem to understand why NP is integral and neccessary for Zerg to survive late game max food armies unfortunately.
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I fully support the Neural Parasite change. Fact is, a 150 gas tier 2 unit is basically able to hardcounter more expensive tier 3 units... Combined with the fact that Zerg expand the easiest and will usually have a higher gas income than Terran or Protoss players allowing for greater infestor numbers than the tier 3 units. Fact was, you could not rely on a high tech army as Protoss anymore since you would just have it stolen and work against you. The Zergs that are whining about this change are saying "What can we possibly do against now without Neural parasite?"
So your complaining about how a t2 unit kills a more expensive t3 unit
ARE YOU KIDDING ME
Marine 50/0 against Muta 100/100 ..... period. not necessary to say anything about it
Go open up your unit test map and try.
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On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead.
Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year.
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On September 09 2011 22:44 Zahki wrote:
You are vastly overexaggerating the damage Fungal Growth does. It's negligable, an Infestor that gets a single Fungal off has definitely NOT paid for itself, you can't even kill workers with a single fungal. Don't exaggerate, if your point is good enough then you don't need to say stuff like "He'll still have 20 Infestors left" No-one gets that many infestors except Destiny, and he loses a lot of them to feedbacks, snipes, EMp, etc every single game.
Basically this change means the ONLY counter to Colossi Zerg have is the Corruptor and I think it's been well documented how bad the corruptor is. Remember early in the year where a Zerg would get a few too many Corruptors and get romemd by Blink Stalkers, or too few and Colossi would absolutely ruin Roaches by the dozen? Do we want to go back to that? Shouldn't Zerg get a more effective counter before we start taking away one of the few units they have that can actually turn the tables of a huge battle?
Roaches are not food efficient, Hydras are terrible, Ultras are even worse, there's not exactly much for the Zerg to fall back on to fight off a Protoss force with superior firepower. We'll go back to a 200 food protoss army being insta win.
Uhm, I'm not exaggerating. Fungal growth generally does more damage than psi storm. It really does. Right now it does 36/47 damage compared to storm's 80, but it has a significantly larger radius to catch more units and you can't move out of it.
Infestors are still perfectly viable as a support unit in ZvP. Their colossi are in the back, you can still fungal the front of their army without getting roasted. That deals a huge amount of DPS, and massacres sentries extremely effectively, allowing your roaches to break them before they get slaughtered. Yes their AE damage output is still superior but you have a better economy than they do. If you trade all your roaches for all their stalkers/sentries you are winning the game, even if their colossi aren't touched.
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EPT
