EPT[D] Patch 1.4 and its implications - Page 21
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xbankx
703 Posts
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nemo14
United States425 Posts
On August 31 2011 22:32 Zandar wrote: Will vision up ramp nerf the 7 roach rush a bit too? There's usally a zealot or supply depots just on top of the ramp so if you walk all 7 of them up the ramp, a few in the back won'tl be able to attack anymore, or will they keep vision because the roaches in the front have vision? Anyone who doesn't bring an overlord for high-ground vision with their roach rush probably shouldn't be winning games with roach rushes. | ||
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Spocria
Singapore17 Posts
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lizzard_warish
589 Posts
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ExJohn
United States6 Posts
Our splash damage spell has been nerfed as well making infestors now a lot less attractive then they are now. The question is how to re-arrange our army composition to better deal with Colossus death balls (maybe if they build void rays?) and Terran Mech. I'm just going to pretend as if people don't build motherships or battlecruisers or carriers. The thor and the colossus may very well become the bane of our existence (along with t3 air). Perhaps this is another hoo-rah for ling, bling, muta style again? | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless. | ||
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Crytch
Germany135 Posts
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research... The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game. So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
On September 09 2011 19:56 Thraundil wrote: Updated my original post which contains loads of zerg bias, but I quite frankly feel I am in my right mind here. NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless. I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... . | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
as NP is literally the only answer I can think of to mass zealot/archon/HT roach/roach/roach composition is pretty good against that. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On September 09 2011 20:09 Crytch wrote: HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research... The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game. So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2. How about crying "1/1/1 is already the most powerful timing push in the game, why on earth would you buff it?" The most popular strategy for attempting to hold it right now involves a lot of slow zealots, a seeker missile would be game ending. No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On September 09 2011 20:21 loklok wrote: I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... . You make it sound as if you're talking of marines! And Corruptors don't counter Colossus btw, they have way too few range to hit them without getting utterly raped by Stalkers. The only counter to > 4 Colossus armies is either NPs or Brood Lords. The np change is completely ridiculous and 3 bases Toss will once again become nearly unstoppable for a Zerg. Blizzard is heading the wrong way here. | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On September 09 2011 20:21 loklok wrote: I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... . I would be fine with losing some of the infestors strength IF zerg has an alternative for anti-air. Corruptor is the only dedicated anti-air unit in the game, yet it is also by far the worst anti-air unit in the game. Remember the colossus / void ray / sentry / stalker death balls? Zerg would scout colossi and build corruptors, which get utterly crushed by void rays. Unupgraded, 2 corruptors (cost 300/200/4) barely defeats a single void ray (cost 250/150/3) without corruption (I here assume that in a big battle, spamming corruption might not be priority number 1).. Add multiple void rays, add stalker support underneath, and add to the fact that critical numbers of colossi wreck ground forces completely, especially with forcefield support. But I dont need to state all this - I think we all remember seeing these games where maxed zerg armies would clash into 150 supply protoss armies, the zerg would lose everything and the protoss would lose maybe a colossus and a few stalkers. If we return to the state of the game where corruptors are the only answer to colossi, we will simply see the return of colossi/voidray balls of death. I agree with you on the "time on infestor tech" part. But this stems again from the lack of another option. Without infestors zerg HAS no anti-air. At least not an effective one. I would be fine with this change if for example corruptors damage was changed from +bonus to massive only, and into +bonus to armored (so it would also deal its bonus damage to void rays). Maybe a range buff also, so stalkers would not simply lolpwn them when they fly in to shoot. But as it stands right now in the patch notes... The future is bleak. Mass chain fungals might work on low levels, but as soon as protoss learns to spread their air forces out, and keeping in mind colossi and fungal have similar ranges, I dont see it working except with masses and masses of infestors - and that is where blinkstalkers come in to counteract that as well. | ||
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Jergen
United States136 Posts
 In seriousness though, I don't understand why they're nerfing Neural. It's obnoxious to lose a high tech unit to it, but that was sort of the point of the ability. It seems like this is just a sweeping change by Blizzard. On one hand, this could be good, since it means they're actually using the PTR to test stuff out. But I can't imagine this going to live in it's current state; it'd hit Infestors way too hard. If they don't like the idea of mass Infestors taking over the core of a Mech or Protoss army, why not change it to have either a shorter duration or act merely as a suppression for the duration, instead of a full take over on massive? | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On September 09 2011 20:42 mr_tolkien wrote: You make it sound as if you're talking of marines! And Corruptors don't counter Colossus btw, they have way too few range to hit them without getting utterly raped by Stalkers. The only counter to > 4 Colossus armies is either NPs or Brood Lords. The np change is completely ridiculous and 3 bases Toss will once again become nearly unstoppable for a Zerg. Blizzard is heading the wrong way here. Fungal + baneling drops fell out of favor because mass infestor is so much easier to execute and is more effective, but it still seems quite viable to me. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
You make it sound as if you're talking of marines! And Corruptors don't counter Colossus btw, they have way too few range to hit them without getting utterly raped by Stalkers. The only counter to > 4 Colossus armies is either NPs or Brood Lords. The np change is completely ridiculous and 3 bases Toss will once again become nearly unstoppable for a Zerg. Blizzard is heading the wrong way here. The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position I would be fine with losing some of the infestors strength IF zerg has an alternative for anti-air. Corruptor is the only dedicated anti-air unit in the game, yet it is also by far the worst anti-air unit in the game. Remember the colossus / void ray / sentry / stalker death balls? Zerg would scout colossi and build corruptors, which get utterly crushed by void rays. Unupgraded, 2 corruptors (cost 300/200/4) barely defeats a single void ray (cost 250/150/3). Add multiple void rays, add stalker support underneath, and add to the fact that critical numbers of colossi wreck ground forces completely, especially with forcefield support. But I dont need to state all this - I think we all remember seeing these games where maxed zerg armies would clash into 150 supply protoss armies, the zerg would lose everything and the protoss would lose maybe a colossus and a few stalkers. If we return to the state of the game where corruptors are the only answer to colossi, we will simply see the return of colossi/voidray balls of death. I agree with you on the "time on infestor tech" part. But this stems again from the lack of another option. Without infestors zerg HAS no anti-air. At least not an effective one. I would be fine with this change if for example corruptors damage was changed from +bonus to massive only, and into +bonus to armored (so it would also deal its bonus damage to void rays). But as it stands right now in the patch notes... The future is bleak. Mass chain fungals might work on low levels, but as soon as protoss learns to spread their air forces out, and keeping in mind colossi and fungal have similar ranges, I dont see it working except with masses and masses of infestors - and that is where blinkstalkers come in to counteract that as well. I agree that it was hard to counter the "death ball". It was like trying to counter a T 1-1-1 as P .... . The point is that Z doesn't lose infestor unit. They can sill use them but in combination with other units. Fungal stalker -> focus colossus. Get Sentries out of position -> no FFS. It takes years until a death ball with all units is up on 2 base. It was a bit funny when Z is using ling infestor and winning with mass fungal. And on the other side P has to build every kind of unit and control them properly to survive. But yes. I'm feeling like there were always a missing unit in the Z arsenal. But an almighty unit as infestor is not a solution. | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
Corruptor: 200 hp 2 standard armor - armored unit. 14 dmg, 20 vs massive. Range 6 speed 1.9 Void ray: 100 shields, 150 hp. 0 standard armor - armored unit. 6 dmg, 10 vs armored. Range 6 speed 0.6. (8 dmg, 16 vs armored at full power). 2 corruptors vs 1 void ray, 0/0 on both: Without corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 20 hp left. With corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 103 hp left. 3 corruptors vs 2 void rays, 0/0 on both (this is 450/300/6 worth of corruptors vs 500/300/6 worth of void rays): Without corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 50 shields and full hp. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 100 hp. 6 corruptors vs 4 void rays, 0/0 on both: Without corruption: Void rays win, 2 survive one with 68 hp other full. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 90 shields and full hp. 12 corruptors vs 8 void rays, +1 attack on both: Without corruption: void rays win. 3 survive, with full hp and one taking ~50 shield damage. With corruption: void rays win, 2 survive, one taking 48 life damage. As you can see, disregarding upgrades, with equal resources and supply invested void rays beat corruptors in a bad way - and the more void rays there is the worst it gets. This means that just to handle the supporting void rays, zerg needs at least double the amount of corruptors as void rays - this is not only more resources, but also more supply. Then there also need to be more corruptors left over to deal with the actual colossi. Oh, and if the corruptors fire on the void rays first, the entire ground force of the zerg will disintegrate. Its a loss/loss situation to answer colossi with corruptors if the protoss adds void rays to the mix. The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position True. But corruptor is range 6, viking is range 9. And vikings do alot more anti-air damage than corruptors for a cheapter cost. For example 2 microed vikings kill a void ray while both surviving - even though the void ray costs more. | ||
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Crytch
Germany135 Posts
On September 09 2011 20:27 Alzadar wrote: How about crying "1/1/1 is already the most powerful timing push in the game, why on earth would you buff it?" The most popular strategy for attempting to hold it right now involves a lot of slow zealots, a seeker missile would be game ending. No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself. Lol, you cant scout a 1-1-1 until terran is moving out. So you go blind for mass zealots just to hold a possible 1-1-1? A well timed 1-1-1 hits when the raven hit the 100 energy for his PDD, HSM would need 125 Energy. The push would be delayed by a half minute. Wanna see the protoss who cant hold off a delayed 1-1-1 without a PDD, and a HSM on Zealots, which can be microed away easily. What about "No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself." | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On September 09 2011 21:18 Crytch wrote: Lol, you cant scout a 1-1-1 until terran is moving out. So you go blind for mass zealots just to hold a possible 1-1-1? A well timed 1-1-1 hits when the raven hit the 100 energy for his PDD, HSM would need 125 Energy. The push would be delayed by a half minute. Wanna see the protoss who cant hold off a delayed 1-1-1 without a PDD, and a HSM on Zealots, which can be microed away easily. What about "No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself." Many protoss go for robotics facility due to the risk of cloaked banshee. An observer will spot the 1/1/1 in progress. Delaying the push by half a minute will give the protoss maybe 3 or 4 more units. A HSM flies faster than zealots run - it will connect. I think YOU are the one who havent considered multiple facets of the change, and I would personally like to see hard evidence before ruling this out. HSM needs research time. Consider raven harass against a workerline if HSM was not an investment - keeping in mind workers cannot outrun HSM. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On September 09 2011 21:18 Crytch wrote: Lol, you cant scout a 1-1-1 until terran is moving out. So you go blind for mass zealots just to hold a possible 1-1-1? A well timed 1-1-1 hits when the raven hit the 100 energy for his PDD, HSM would need 125 Energy. The push would be delayed by a minute. Wanna see the protoss who cant hold off a 1minute delayed 1-1-1 without a PDD, and a HSM on Zealots, which can be microed away easily. What about "No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself." 1. Your observer reaches the Terran before they push out, usually giving you time to warp in 1-2 rounds of units: if you see it is a 1/1/1, then you make zealots (and chronoboost Immortals). 2. Not all 1/1/1 builds incorporate a Raven, and those that do usually get a Banshee first. The Terran could swap the order and hit at the same timing with a Seeker Missile, or alternatively delay the push by half a minute - it would still be deadly. 3. After the patch Seeker Missiles will be much faster than Zealots, so I wouldn't say they can be microed "easily". | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
Zerg will make corru/infest instead of a lame mass infest. Void rays are not that good vs infest since you can fungal (with the bonus) forever OR fungal + infested. NP 3 colossus 3/3 can end the game before the infest get sniped. | ||
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