EPTI still think Zerg needs some spell to deal with energy units (like EMP/Feedback).
Maybe some oversear spell to drain energy?
What do You guys think about this?
[D] Patch 1.4 and its implications - Page 20
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TmzZ666
Poland144 Posts
I still think Zerg needs some spell to deal with energy units (like EMP/Feedback). Maybe some oversear spell to drain energy? What do You guys think about this? | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
On August 31 2011 10:12 Jumbled wrote: A couple of pros have even done stutter-step micro with zerglings to get extra hits or a better surround on retreating marines. You can stutter-step a zealot to kill 4 (slow)lings. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
There's usally a zealot or supply depots just on top of the ramp so if you walk all 7 of them up the ramp, a few in the back won'tl be able to attack anymore, or will they keep vision because the roaches in the front have vision? | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
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oneil
Canada73 Posts
On August 31 2011 22:32 Zandar wrote: Will vision up ramp nerf the 7 roach rush a bit too? There's usally a zealot or supply depots just on top of the ramp so if you walk all 7 of them up the ramp, a few in the back won'tl be able to attack anymore, or will they keep vision because the roaches in the front have vision? The ones who manage to get past halfway up the ramp will provide vision for those left behind. | ||
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Morphling_
87 Posts
On August 30 2011 17:15 Xequecal wrote: Actually, I have tried that. They burrow and outheal storm, it's pretty funny. Templar are simply not any good at all against Zerg. They were good when Zerg used mutalisks and zerglings but not now. They do nothing to roaches or brood lords, and they don't function well as an infestor counter. They're horrifically easy to snipe and you have to spend 100 APM keeping them split up or the Zerg can just erase them all with a few fungals. Please, spare us the ridiculous hyperbole. Roaches do not outheal storm, even after upgraded regen. While roaches are burrowed they move so slow that a pre-schooler can land every storm on them, and you WILL be able to kill them if you have the energ and they dont pop out. All good zergs still use lings, lots of lings. Maxing on roaches against toss isn't good, and lings are the natural complement to mass infestors. Do you know what destiny does when toss gets High temps? Switches to roaches, because a single storm can talk out half his army. He mentions time and time again that HT are the correct response to mass infestor, despite you thinking they are worthless. HT are only easy to snipe if you position them poorly, and storms on the infestor ball will be just as devastating as fungals on the HTs (albeit, chain fungal is easier than hitting several storms). It's pretty easy to mass parasite Protoss when infestors move faster than templar and all their spells have the same range as feedback, just stop them out of range and tell them to cast their spells, it's impossible for the Protoss to feedback them before they cast. Again, leaving your templar out in front of your army where infestors can reach them is pretty silly. Having any units at all between the infestor and the HT will discourage this kind of play. [As for corruptors - so what? Who uses corruptors? Lots of colossus is easy to counter, just make 15 infestors and NP/fungal spam the ball to death. You'll lose a few to colossus shots but you're zerg, you always have way more resources than the opponent. Protoss is all about killing the Zerg before they get a critical mass of infestors because you cannot do anything about this unit if they have a bunch of them. Late game Protoss is completely hopeless vs Zerg as Zerg will make brood lords and fungal completely demolishes the two counter units, namely blink stalkers and void rays. Yet again, If your colossi are getting mass neuraled, you are having positioning problems. Neural range = colossi attack range, so there is no reason to have your colossi out in front of your army. If you make the infestors get within stalker attack range to land NP on colossi, then this kind of thing might not happen. All of this said... Infestors are likely the best unit in the game and deserve this nerf. But don't act like HTs are garbage. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On August 31 2011 18:13 TmzZ666 wrote: A lot of changes in this patch. I still think Zerg needs some spell to deal with energy units (like EMP/Feedback). Maybe some oversear spell to drain energy? What do You guys think about this? You have to be VERY careful when balancing a spellcaster that has 0 food cost. Already I can envision maxed army situations where the Zerg morphs 30 Overseers and just goops the hell out of the enemy base, and then attacks. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
- immortals much better, mainly because they can automatically engage faster, freeing up your APM that you would have to spend faffing around with your stalker concave. - blue flame finally got a deserved nerf (if you don't think it deserved a nerf then you're a looney toon) the other changes are nice balance tweaks but very minor changes. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On August 31 2011 15:06 freetgy wrote: no a-moving a ball of units back and forth is hardly micro (may be in the most basic understanding, if you compare it to not moving at all during the fight, everyone can do that) using individual units to maximum effciency is micro, that why it is considered a skill. like hero not losing a single unit in mlg because of individual micro. Basic example: Zealot / Stalker - totally different movement speed, makes zealots often stuck you have to individual move your army so your zealot will always reach the target properly, or else they will do no damage at all are you having the same issues Marine Marauder? no because they are perfectly in sync. both in range and movement speed Same issue with Immortal / Stalker , Sentry / Zealot another example: - using individual small groups of units (i.e. stimming) to snipe important units, now that is micro. - using marines splitting them individually, against banelings / zerglings , that is micro that takes skill cause it alot harder then to just stutter step What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. Not having your Zealots stuck behind your Stalkers isn't micro at all, that's just common sense and good army positioning. However, from that cute little excerpt you probably have memorized, that sounds like drop ship control/multitasking IS micro, whereas your silly example of Zealots and Stalkers is just common sense and if you don't do it you have poor army control. Plus, of those examples you mentioned, controlling a small group of Marauders to try to snipe Colossi is something that most high level Terrans do in big engagements. Also, since when have Marines and Marauders had the same range? I mean personally when I'm fighting Colossus balls I usually put my Marauders in the front despite the greater range just because they can take a few more Colossi shots instead of having my Marines in the front where they all melt, but that's actually a decision I choose to make (does that count as micro??) | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal? You rather want them alive to deal their sick bonus damage than to soak up some damage with hardened shields. They only have 1 base armour by the way. | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
On September 01 2011 00:48 Ada wrote: You rather want them alive to deal their sick bonus damage than to soak up some damage with hardened shields. They only have 1 base armour by the way. usually you want to put 1 immortal in front if you are attacking into your opponent (think a sieged terran) that way all the tanks first shots are wasted on the immortal shield) other than that i think it is wise to keep the immortals alive because they are a good clean up unit at the end of the battle, especially if they most of there shield left | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal? Also, they're slower and more cumbersome than Stalkers so the Stalkers always engage first and then the Immortals get stuck behind and can't attack. I would prefer to have the Immortals be used in the battle at all than not at all. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal? yes, it depends on the enemy composition, if you enemy goes mass roach, you can't just let your immortals to the front, beeing fastly focus fired. you actually sacrifice other units (like stalkers) to prolong the Immortals Protoss is all about keeping high tech units alive, to deal damage to become cost effective. of course if you engage tanks , it is a different story, but just because Immortals are tanks doesn't mean they are always best at the front, where everything can hit them. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:12 freetgy wrote: yes, it depends on the enemy composition, if you enemy goes mass roach, you can't just let your immortals to the front, beeing fastly focus fired. you actually sacrifice other units (like stalkers) to prolong the Immortals Protoss is all about keeping high tech units alive, to deal damage to become cost effective. of course if you engage tanks , it is a different story, but just because Immortals are tanks doesn't mean they are always best at the front, where everything can hit them. They have 1 armor? so i mean i guess that does mean they have the "most" because no P unit has a base armor of 2... but zealots/stalkers/sentries/collosi all have 1 armor as well. Furthermore i think the consensus (at least from Dustin Browder's pov) is that the immortals burst dmg vs armored units is its most appealing feature, so enabling it to engage faster and be less of a big fat target that cant retreat easily when damaged (due to the immo previously having to be placed in front of the stalker concave ) So to address your question, while the original designed purpose of the immortal may have centered around the hardened shield, in practice the high burst dmg vs armored targets is the POINT (or most appealing feature) of the immortal. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On August 31 2011 23:20 Morphling_ wrote: Please, spare us the ridiculous hyperbole. Roaches do not outheal storm, even after upgraded regen. While roaches are burrowed they move so slow that a pre-schooler can land every storm on them, and you WILL be able to kill them if you have the energ and they dont pop out. All good zergs still use lings, lots of lings. Maxing on roaches against toss isn't good, and lings are the natural complement to mass infestors. Do you know what destiny does when toss gets High temps? Switches to roaches, because a single storm can talk out half his army. He mentions time and time again that HT are the correct response to mass infestor, despite you thinking they are worthless. HT are only easy to snipe if you position them poorly, and storms on the infestor ball will be just as devastating as fungals on the HTs (albeit, chain fungal is easier than hitting several storms). I think you should think this post through a bit more. You say that a "pre-schooler" can kill roaches with storm, then say a top player switches TO roaches when the Protoss gets HTs because they don't die to storm. It takes like five storms to kill a burrowed roach, that assumes there's no stacking of storm, no delay between storms, and that the roach eats 100% of the storm duration. Storm does not work against roaches at all. HTs are dubious against infestors, and do not do anything against brood lords. The only common zerg strat that storm is good against right now is mass banelings in overlords, because with relatively slow overlords they can't attack and force you to waste energy on storms, then quickly retreat to heal, burrowing under FFs if necessary. Again, leaving your templar out in front of your army where infestors can reach them is pretty silly. Having any units at all between the infestor and the HT will discourage this kind of play. Then they can just spam fungal at the front and retreat, never getting in feedback range. Will they execute this perfectly? Probably not, and will lose a few infestors, but it's zerg. They have more resources than you, you have to kill a lot more of their stuff than they have to kill of yours. Yet again, If your colossi are getting mass neuraled, you are having positioning problems. Neural range = colossi attack range, so there is no reason to have your colossi out in front of your army. If you make the infestors get within stalker attack range to land NP on colossi, then this kind of thing might not happen. All of this said... Infestors are likely the best unit in the game and deserve this nerf. But don't act like HTs are garbage. So HTs are the best counter to infestors, but now colossi can also beat them? Which one is it? Stalkers get summarily annihilated if you blink or move them forward to shoot down infestors. You RELY on the low range of roaches so you can FF their army and half of it won't be able to shoot back at you. If you move your stalkers up to shoot NPing Infestors in the back row they will get slaughtered in seconds, that's if they even can move due to mass fungal anyways. | ||
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gradotude
United States196 Posts
On August 25 2011 20:04 Kornholi0 wrote: Well Personally I am glad hellions got nerfed THANKS KOREANS! I think instead of making ultralisk take less time, they should run faster (about the same speed as lings) that way you can be like BW and actually have effective strong units that are fast instead of relying on the meatshield. Problem with a meatshield is that you need other units to DPS for you... If you only have lings they get in the way of ultralisk -.- Oh well maybe HoTS we get hydralisk that are much faster or at least stronger (bulkier in health would be nice). + 1 | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On August 25 2011 20:04 Kornholi0 wrote: Well Personally I am glad hellions got nerfed THANKS KOREANS! I think instead of making ultralisk take less time, they should run faster (about the same speed as lings) that way you can be like BW and actually have effective strong units that are fast instead of relying on the meatshield. Problem with a meatshield is that you need other units to DPS for you... If you only have lings they get in the way of ultralisk -.- Oh well maybe HoTS we get hydralisk that are much faster or at least stronger (bulkier in health would be nice). The Hydra's role is a slow DPS/Support unit, not a tanky unit. They need to be used with other units like Roaches or Ultralisks to tank damage from other units while they shred everything. If they became faster and bulkier, then there would be no reason to do anything other than mass Hydralisks, and that wouldn't be fun. Also, a speed upgrade would also mess up a lot of stuff balance-wise. Hydralisks aren't that mobile, so to use them you need to use special strategies and they can't make up the bulk of your army. For example, you can use Nydus Worms to do a strong push at a Protoss's front and reinforce with new Hydralisks instead of walking them across the map. Or, you can do Hydra drops, which can absolutely devastate a Protoss or Terran base by killing workers, pylons, or add-ons super fast. Whenever I see a Zerg doing strategies like that, they always seem to be really effective, but I don't see Zergs do it often enough. Hydras are super strong units, you just can't mass them and expect to win ONLY massing Hydralisks, it would be ridiculous if you could in any situation. Your idea about having Ultralisks that move as fast as Lings is downright insane. Maybe a bit faster or an added bonus on creep, but having them move too fast is crazy. They might not be the best unit in the game, but they're still pretty big and pretty hard to deal with. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On September 01 2011 08:15 Xequecal wrote: I think you should think this post through a bit more. You say that a "pre-schooler" can kill roaches with storm, then say a top player switches TO roaches when the Protoss gets HTs because they don't die to storm. It takes like five storms to kill a burrowed roach, that assumes there's no stacking of storm, no delay between storms, and that the roach eats 100% of the storm duration. Storm does not work against roaches at all. HTs are dubious against infestors, and do not do anything against brood lords. The only common zerg strat that storm is good against right now is mass banelings in overlords, because with relatively slow overlords they can't attack and force you to waste energy on storms, then quickly retreat to heal, burrowing under FFs if necessary. Storm kills roaches and everything, it just so happens that Storm kills Zerglings better then just about any other unit in the game, however. So staying on Zergling against High Templar is just a bad idea. And how are HTs "dubious against infestors?" Feedback is so good and usually Infestors only have 90 Hitpoints which means that a single Feedback will kill them. And even if they land a Fungal, you'll still be able to get off a couple of Feedbacks and kill a good number of Infestors and a single fungal won't kill your HTs (plus you could always choose to spread out your HTs so they can't get hit by a single Fungal. Also, you said that High Templar are horrible against Broodlords, but I've actually seen pros use storm on clumps of Broodlords over and over until the Broodlords health is so low that coupled with Blink Stalkers to snipe, they easily took out the massive, doom, Broodlord army. And what do you mean they're only good against Banelings in overlords? I mean, I guess they're alright against Baneling drops, but unless they're going slow Overlords with drop they'll be able to outrun your High Templar. Plus, if you're storming overlords, did you know that Overlords have 55 more hit points then Roaches? Your whole argument is awful. High Templar are super strong. Storm is really good against everything. And if Destiny says that High Templar is the appropriate response to Ling/Infestor, he probably has more experience on the matter than you or anybody on this forum so we should go with what he says. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
My reasoning: Air as a midgame strategy has always been incredibly strong in PvP, probably the strongest in the game actually. However, PvP being the cheesefest it is, it's been nearly impossible to open in such a way that doesn't immediately lead to dying. However, now that both 4gate and blink stalkers rushes have received sizeable nerfs, It looks like builds such as 3gate robo will be basically 100% safe against anything the opposing toss can throw at it. However, there is one thing that is extremely strong against robo-centric builds: air. Unfortunately, this could simply lead to another one of the the RPS setups that we've come to know and love in PvP, in this case changing it to Air > Robo > Rush > Air. Still, a rise in air builds would be a very welcome change to a matchup that rarely heads past 10 minutes as is. | ||
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