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On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote:
What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
That is the important point.
Lets see what the HT does:
it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more.
Ghost:
cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless.
Infestor:
It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent.
Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines.
Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
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On September 10 2011 03:05 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote:
What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.- That is the important point. Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more. Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless. Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent. Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
but its not like they are removing the energy upgrade for infestors, they are removing one of its skills entirely.
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Ok, before all the protoss keep trying to compare the HT nerf to infestors/ghosts. The reason HT lost amulets was due to warp gate mechanic. Assuming no current production it takes the following amount of time before a caster has 75 energy.
Infestor: 50s - production time
Ghost: 40s - production time
High Templar - 5s (warp in time) + (25/0.5625) = 5s+44.4s = 49.4s
So from the moment you start building a caster to the moment it has 75 energy it is almost the same time (ghosts are slightly faster - maybe to compensate for tech lab required, dunno)
Also note that most zerg agree that infestors needed some nerfs but zerg needs some form of AA buff.
And just for the fun of it for the poster above me (by the time I wrote this 2 above me).
Let's see what a collosus does:
Huge range
Sees up clifs
Moves up and down clifs
Scales awesome with upgrades
and it's main disadvantage is that it forces AA units from the enemy.
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Ups edit became quote, my bad.
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On September 10 2011 03:05 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote:
What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.- That is the important point. Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more. Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless. Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent. Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
The main difference between the Protoss and Zerg nerfs are that ZERG HAVE NOTHING ELSE. Infestors are and hopefully will remain the keystone to ZvP play. True, HTs are pretty useless when they first come out. Good thing that Protoss are often the attackers, because you can move out when you have the energy. No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
Storm is not nearly as useless as Protoss players like to complain. Storm completely negates zerglings and muta balls, for the most part. They also do heavy, heavy damage to hydras and fare well versus Roaches, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Yes, infestor drops are incredibly powerful. They're also about 400/600 loaded into one overlord. A bigger problem is the much cheaper and more versatile marine drop. Complain about those. If you guys loaded your HTs into warp prisms and dropped our expos, we would lose all of our drones immediately. And 4 HTs cost less than 4 infestors. Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.
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On September 10 2011 03:05 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote:
What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.- That is the important point. Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more. Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless. Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent. Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
I disagree with this analysis. Infestor fungal nerf is necessary, I'll grant that. I'm personally worried about the neural parasite. Against the Protoss death ball, the NP was the only manageable solution short of going corruptors (which is feasible, as Zerg's are probably going Broodlords too). However the window for a roach infestor army to roach infestor corruptor brood lord is a large one, and protoss can easily have the mid game stalker collosi composition to just decimate this phase. Hydras have already been proven ineffective against the composition, and just suck gas from the other units.
My big issue is the comparison of casters across the board. Infestors play a different role in the game phase. Ghosts and HT's are never an exclusive mid game transition. Infestors, have evolved into a crucial role in the Zerg midgame that really has little to replace it. HTs warp in with 1 spell that can nullify an Infestor, and subsquently has the ability to morph onto an archon which the infestor just lost a lot of usefullness against. Ghosts start off with a snipe, and can have the energy upgrade to also nullify the usefulness of an infestor with EMPs.
tldr: I'm unwilling to concede any caster v caster commentary in a balance discussion as they're all independent units with completely different roles. Like comparing zealot to marine to zergling. They all play differently.
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On September 10 2011 03:29 Incandenza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:05 o)_Saurus wrote:On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote:
What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.- That is the important point. Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more. Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless. Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent. Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine. I disagree with this analysis. Infestor fungal nerf is necessary, I'll grant that. I'm personally worried about the neural parasite. Against the Protoss death ball, the NP was the only manageable solution short of going corruptors (which is feasible, as Zerg's are probably going Broodlords too). However the window for a roach infestor army to roach infestor corruptor brood lord is a large one, and protoss can easily have the mid game stalker collosi composition to just decimate this phase. Hydras have already been proven ineffective against the composition, and just suck gas from the other units. My big issue is the comparison of casters across the board. Infestors play a different role in the game phase. Ghosts and HT's are never an exclusive mid game transition. Infestors, have evolved into a crucial role in the Zerg midgame that really has little to replace it. HTs warp in with 1 spell that can nullify an Infestor, and subsquently has the ability to morph onto an archon which the infestor just lost a lot of usefullness against. Ghosts start off with a snipe, and can have the energy upgrade to also nullify the usefulness of an infestor with EMPs. tldr: I'm unwilling to concede any caster v caster commentary in a balance discussion as they're all independent units with completely different roles. Like comparing zealot to marine to zergling. They all play differently.
pretty much, and thats why people stay on "roach tech" so long. They've been punished for gas hogging with hydras and other mid tier units that get them roflstomped.
Zerg is a gimmick race, that gimmick being needing infestors in mass to survive.
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The NP nerf doesn't make too much sense because it takes away the main purpose of the spell. I'd rather have infested terrans be nerfed (from 8 damage to 6 damage) instead.
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The way I see it will be (if changes are not made
P > Z (The winrates are a bit better for zerg now, but the neural + fungal nerf in combination with the protoss buffs should skew the MU slightly into P's favor)
T > Z (ultralisk build time might help Z, but I think it's not enough)
T > P (Immortal range upgrade might help a bit, but not that much I think)
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The NP nerf makes no sense. It poses the risk of unhinging a delicate match up. NP is crucial in defending Zealot Archon in a sensible manner. I.e. not 5 base zerg to 2 base toss.
The real thing they should be looking at is the infested terran used against protoss expansions. They are missing the mark. Mech was used against zerg some 6 months ago with decent success. it was only when NP started being used against thors did the build go out of style.
Ghost mech will be unstoppable against zerg.
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The new Neural change is going to completely change the ZvT and ZvP games. Being able to neural parasite thors and use them against the terran when they are meching is absolutely crucial.
In ZvP, you can no longer neural colosi, which seems to be a nerf to zerg to improve the quality of ZvP matches, but, ZvT is already in favor of Terran, and this makes the matchup even worse for zerg. Blizzard may feel comfortabke nerfing Zerg in ZvT because of the Blue Flame nerf and Barracks build time increase (delaying 2rax). It'll be interesting to see if this goes through, but I highly doubt it.
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On August 26 2011 08:07 Cryptos wrote:
lol of course terran got nerfed again because protoss and zerg are to lazy to explore new builds
LOL ofcourse you play terran & like to pretend you would be better than others if only X =O
I'll be willing to bet I know which race 90% of the racists in here play ;-)
Everyone is like bufukinhu my race needs a buff, bla bla bla your race needs a nerf. How about some perspective, analysis and a little less "I want to win more without practising BTW all of you guys suck balls". If all you care about is winning, switch to the race you think is OP. Yeah right then if you lost it would be your fault and we cannot have that. Can we?
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In ZvP, fungal still works incredibly well vs deathballs. Void rays are still targets for neural. Void rays do incredible damage to colossus.
Or just continue to fungal the voids while sack corrupters or baneling bombs in order to take out colossus. In Korean PvZ I have not seen a lot of neural, yet infestors still reign supreme in the matchup. Throw out 16 infested terrans on an expo or 4x fungals and there are no more workers.
Jeez....infestors are still a great unit.
Also, as a last note. Against competent zerg players you cannot feedback infestors in any type of cost effective manner. Fungal, pull back, fungal pull back, fungal pull back. You may say blnk forward and snipe the infestors!
But that army has been pulled back to sit there babysitting infestors.
Then suddenly the HTs and sentries are dead and the rest of the army is still at half health! Charge in roaches, blings, lings! Whichever you prefer. They all work.
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WHAT??! NP can't be used against Clossis & Archons & Thors ?
This is ridiculous -.-
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well...in fact it would be great because it would break the 4 gate meta game that would disappear (however it would still be a reasonable build against anything else than dt's). Beside that, if the observer was not able to get out in time, we would see a lot more forge play which also means more fast expand play that would be insanely refreshing in PvP. Also, since dt shrine does not require a twilight in this case, we could simply nerf the build time of the DS by 20 seconds lets say and then an observer would still get out in time and we would still be able to force engineering bay and evo chamber in both pvt and pvz!
Seriously? *facepalm*
Colossi should come out of gateway without robo and instantly with 9 range ... that would break the 4gate as well .
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On September 10 2011 04:16 Coopa826 wrote:Show nested quote +well...in fact it would be great because it would break the 4 gate meta game that would disappear (however it would still be a reasonable build against anything else than dt's). Beside that, if the observer was not able to get out in time, we would see a lot more forge play which also means more fast expand play that would be insanely refreshing in PvP. Also, since dt shrine does not require a twilight in this case, we could simply nerf the build time of the DS by 20 seconds lets say and then an observer would still get out in time and we would still be able to force engineering bay and evo chamber in both pvt and pvz!
Seriously? *facepalm* Colossi should come out of gateway without robo and instantly with 9 range ... that would break the 4gate as well .
well im facepalming against your comment loll! you must be a low league player for trolling against me like that...I am just proposing something new that would change the metagame without being insanely op and you are flaming me for no reason!
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In ZvP, fungal still works incredibly well vs deathballs. Void rays are still targets for neural. Void rays do incredible damage to colossus.
Or just continue to fungal the voids while sack corrupters or baneling bombs in order to take out colossus. In Korean PvZ I have not seen a lot of neural, yet infestors still reign supreme in the matchup. Throw out 16 infested terrans on an expo or 4x fungals and there are no more workers.
Jeez....infestors are still a great unit.
Also, as a last note. Against competent zerg players you cannot feedback infestors in any type of cost effective manner. Fungal, pull back, fungal pull back, fungal pull back. You may say blnk forward and snipe the infestors!
But that army has been pulled back to sit there babysitting infestors.
Then suddenly the HTs and sentries are dead and the rest of the army is still at half health! Charge in roaches, blings, lings! Whichever you prefer. They all work.
You only gave an example of an incompetent retarded protoss.
Heres the otherway round .... a protossplayer who does not believe that 2 ht should counter 10 infestors and a decent zerg player.
Feedback x10 all infestors uselss in an instant.
1 storm all lings dead (srly you can run out of an storm with lings. the moment a ling leaves the aoe another one swarms in)
ever played late game against a zerg army without infestors -> LOL
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well im facepalming against your comment loll! you must be a low league player for trolling against me like that...I am just proposing something new that would change the metagame without being insanely op and you are flaming me for no reason!
No dude your DT thing does not work at all.
example PvZ. Zerg can never get a third hatchery and has to plant all of his bases with at least 2 spores and 3 spines.
Terrans have no real scouting ability until raven and thats too long.
PvP would be retarded as fuck becuase its not even rock paper scissors anymore. its flipcoin
Every TvP would have ravens no matter what
Every ZvP would be 0-2 in a bo3
Every PvP would be flipcoin
ENd of discussion
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No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.[/QUOTE]
Hts are slower; they are not easy to feedback (unless ur in the bronze league, and can't micro). A competent zerg can fungal, np, or drop infested terrans. You can burrow, ghosts can cloak, hts can morph into archons.
Pretty sure roaches, broodlords, ultras, mutas (if you spread), nydus play, etc counter hts.
You guys have burrow, we don't (compensation for morphing). Neural nerf was unnecessary, but ht drops are terrible because you have to wait to storm. Infestors have 3 abilities +burrow, hts have 3, one morphs into an archon.
And for cost, its not heavy damage, its 37 with a fairly slow attack rate. You shouldn't be throwing zerglings, a tier one unit, at tier 3.5 archons.
You forget zerg are a macro race and units are slightly less efficient.
A storm drop can never be as effective as an infested terran drop, as hts cant target buildings. The last part is correct, you don't know. We also have the ability to morph into archons because hts are almost useless vs anything in equal cost before they get enough energy for storm. You can move out of a storm, and zerglings are pretty efficient if they rund around the storm. If you lose all your zerglings to few storms, it's your fault; I 2v2 with zerg buddies all the time. Just split them, its not hard. Don't 1a, grab a third, moveshift a, repeat *2.
You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
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On September 10 2011 04:10 Lasbike wrote:
WHAT??! NP can't be used against Clossis & Archons & Thors ?
This is ridiculous -.-
To be honest, I don't care about what they did to NP i just wish they would call it what it is. They removed almost all its utility from the game, meaning it should simply be removed from the game.
Its now nothing more than a gimmicky victory cigar.
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EPT
