EPTOn August 14 2011 06:39 freetgy wrote:
information is way more important than economy
information is way more important than economy
Say you had your map hacks on and only have like 40 drones.
Now is information more important then economy?
The Starcraft Pyramid - Page 5
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MonkSEA
Australia1227 Posts
Say you had your map hacks on and only have like 40 drones. Now is information more important then economy? | ||
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Mr.marine
Canada49 Posts
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mandingo
25 Posts
On August 14 2011 06:44 MonkSEA wrote: Say you had your map hacks on and only have like 40 drones. Now is information more important then economy? Look at your opponents base. No attack incoming. Make 30 drones. So yeah, it is. | ||
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azzu
Germany141 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:07 mandingo wrote: Look at your opponents base. No attack incoming. Make 30 drones. So yeah, it is. No, it is not more important, and you almost said it directly in your statement. You used the information to get a bigger economy. The information is the tool that lets you get the economy, because with the better economy, you can win the game. If information was more important than economy for winning the game, then all you would have to do to win every game of starcraft is turn on a maphack, but this is not true. If you are a very good zerg and know how to manage your economy and production, then having a map hack will win you every game, because you know what is coming and you are able to manage your production and economy accordingly. Zerg definitely has a higher use for information than the other races, but it's not more important than economy or production. | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
 I think Ill do that in next revison@thaniri Well... srsly... I don't know what to say... You really really did not understand this article even a little bit  I mean.. this basically says you can get to masters with steps 1-6 with average APM of 50-70... And you say thats wrong... but thats what you are? Anyways, read the article plz if you have not.@pingas startegy is actually included in the "Information" part. I will take note to actually add emphasis on it @mandingo I am actually a zerg player. 1-0 me @satoros That is actually a pretty good point. I really do think that "keeping your cool" is actually a very important part. Althought, the Management does not uniquely focus on this. Keeping your cool will include keeping up with the previous steps under pressure. I will definatly rephrase the management. @bigbeau You are giving some very very very high level examples here. These players you mention obviously mastered preety much all of this stuff. Again, this isnt a set of RULEs, it is a suggestion, a guideline, a tool, whatever you want to call it. PS.: thx for the props @freetgy Unless you bring anything else to the conversation, I will just have to replay "No it isn't" as we have proved time and time again in this post. @Azzu Thanks, I think you got the jist of what I'm saying :D I can't stress this enough: THIS IS NOT A SET OF RULES. It is a mere guideline, an wide-view approach to the game. It is a tool to help you underatand the game and make progress, to help you coaching, to figure out the fundamental problems with your game. Pros have basically mastered everything there is in here. And once more, the upper levels can exist without the lower ones, I'm just saying it will diminish their efficiency. Most of you actually have to read the article before posting please. Of course better micro can win a game. 1 blink stalker can take on infinity ultralisks. That's not the point. | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
Me: how can you coach if you're not on GM? Budha: Is this a serious question? Me: Yes, i'm sorry if I dont posted on TL or offended you. But I think you have to be a pro gamer to teach how to be one. I coached a friend when I was plat. The guy is masters playing on keyd team now, but I realized 2 months later I said a lot of shit while coaching him. IMO people can find their mistakes but dont know how to fix it. The pyramid points all things you could do wrong in a SC2 game, i've seen a lot of threads with guides here, they are all good, but they wont tell you how to fix it. Once you know all the concepts listed on your pyramid, you're on diamond. Then you have to fix/polish your gameplay to go past masters. So far the only guy who teaches how to fix your mistakes is day nine. Or you learn by yourself. Don't say "I have to improve", you have to do something, like next game to fix stopping SCV production I will press the 5 key every 10 seconds. I'm stuck in diamond. I dont want to be that guy who has 2000+ ladder wins and is still on diamond. | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
Thanks for posting here, Youtube really isn't the place to do so BTW, no offence taken, I actually wanted to know if it was a serious question or a troll Even though this isn't really in relation to the topic, I will try to show my position on it as clearly as I can, but I will keep it brief because this isn't the place to discuss it (You can PM me if you want to keep talking ) Though I might write a "Basic Coaching Misconception" article soon or something of that fashion, which will be the place to discuss it.Anyways. I would like to point out that the pyramid is a simple tool. It will not help you on it's own (I just updated the OP to clarify this). On the other hand, I do believe that anyone has the ability to help coach anyone. Although, not every one SHOULD.  There is a huge difference between analyzing a game and actually playing it. Do you see day9 in the GSL? No. Not because he can't out-think players, he just can't keep up with it (for many reasons) Another example is Nazgul (or any other team coach). They might not be the best players on the team, but they can certainly point out fundamental mistakes and help their team improve.What I mean to say is that the GrandMaster status will obviously help A LOT when coaching, but it is not a prerequisite. I mean, I don't think a bronze player can help a Master player! But - and I think most players have this problem - There is a huge difference between knowing what to do and actually doing it (or remembering to do it). Someone might have great game-sense, knowledge, and insight when watching - but can't keep up with his thoughts! Try it yourself, get a diamond buddy and look at your game with him. He will definitely point out things you haven't seen, and it will spark a discussion. Just that might help you improve. Now for Day9's quote. This is perfect. I totally agree with it. And the pyramid won't help you here! This is why some people are coaches, some people are casters and some people are players! A coach will help you identify precisely what you can do to actually improve. The pyramid will tell you WHERE to look, not what to look at! I hope this helps, I will limit myself to this here. PM me if you want to discuss it further, or see if I can actually help you in-game | ||
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AEIownedU
United States18 Posts
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hpfEm.png) Hi, this is my 3rax. Bottom up. | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
The pyramid is a general concept, it does not apply to a specific build, nor should it, or it would be besides the point (then it would simply be precisely that, a build!) | ||
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Buzerio
United Kingdom135 Posts
its wrong in other ways aswell, it really changes depending on what strats and styles are flavor of the month | ||
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bransom
United States40 Posts
On August 15 2011 00:07 azzu wrote: No, it is not more important, and you almost said it directly in your statement. You used the information to get a bigger economy. The information is the tool that lets you get the economy, because with the better economy, you can win the game. If information was more important than economy for winning the game, then all you would have to do to win every game of starcraft is turn on a maphack, but this is not true. If you are a very good zerg and know how to manage your economy and production, then having a map hack will win you every game, because you know what is coming and you are able to manage your production and economy accordingly. Zerg definitely has a higher use for information than the other races, but it's not more important than economy or production. I'm not sure how this made any sense in your head, but it seems completely illogical in mine. If economy was more important than information, then why would people waste time scouting? The drone would be better off mining, wouldn't it? You can't blindly build workers forever and expect to win. Information tells you whether or not you should be building an economy, an army, and/or tech; therefore, it is more important. Although information is more important than economy and production, this doesn't mean that economy and production are nonessential to winning. | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
@bransom Srsly. Read. The. Whole. Thing. Who ever said that economy was better in every situation than information? Cmon, don't be dumb! No one actually thinks that! This isn't black & White. Of course you need to scout with a drone! Just read the damn thing and then post. Although information is more important than economy and production, this doesn't mean that economy and production are nonessential to winning. Did you ever stop to think of the opposite? That's what your preaching | ||
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Buzerio
United Kingdom135 Posts
On August 15 2011 10:40 Budha wrote: @Buzerio Really, you guys have to stop doing this. read the article. PLEASE!! That is just hate your spamming there. At least explain yourself. I am saying, that you need to focus on working on your micro in plat you can just wait till your masters, you need to focus on learning a variety of builds in silver, you cant wait till plat, I dissagree with the leauges you have put for things, you cannot see that people may belive that the order should be diffrent and presume I havent read the thread, you should be more open minded and stop presuming everyone who has a diffrent opinion hasnt read the article | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
Ok, I will remove that part of the post, since people tend to misinterpret it. Btw "I havent read the thread, you should be more open minded and stop presuming everyone who has a diffrent opinion hasnt read the article" means you ahve NOT read the thread. GJ... please read the article. I am very open minded if you actually look at this thread, you will see that. But it really is obvious when someone did not read the article. I'm sorry if it came out aggressive, it was not my intention. But you are stating stuff that I explicitly speak of in the article, or at least in the latest revision. | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
I think Management and Force could be switched though. | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
I have been getting this a lot lately, considering it. But I don't know if I was just unclear in my way of explaining it? Could you elaborate please? | ||
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bransom
United States40 Posts
On August 15 2011 10:40 Budha wrote: @Buzerio Really, you guys have to stop doing this. read the article. PLEASE!! That is just hate your spamming there. At least explain yourself. @bransom Srsly. Read. The. Whole. Thing. Who ever said that economy was better in every situation than information? Cmon, don't be dumb! No one actually thinks that! This isn't black & White. Of course you need to scout with a drone! Just read the damn thing and then post. Did you ever stop to think of the opposite? That's what your preaching Give me a scenario where economy is more important than information. In any given scenario, knowing what your opponent can/can't do will allow you to know what you can/can't do. In a game of limited information, scouting is far more important than setting up an economy for the late game. And yes, I did stop and think about the opposing view, but as I clearly stated, I think information is more important than both economy and production. Obviously an economy, and production are necessary, but you don't know how much, nor what you need to produce unless you gather information. | ||
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