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On August 12 2011 03:59 MockHamill wrote:
I think the Pyramid is mostly correct but it misses the most important aspect of SC2 which is Speed.
Speed is actually indirectly part of most steps of the pyramid, even things like information and knowledge (processing information using knowledge). You also need speed for production and economy, as both are not considered "mastered" when there's a lack of speed.
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Nice post budha, I totally agree with most of it.
But something special concerning Zerg: How are we supposed to manage economy without good scouting?
Terrans and Protoss may constantly produce and keep money low to have a solid fundament. But that's not possible for Zerg. What do you think about this?
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Agree mostly, however timing attacks are not always pre-planned. Good players adjust the timing of their attack ingame based on scouting. Basically "Information" is a prerequisite to employ "timing"
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@gurrpp True, Didn't pay attention to that point Will add it in
@schnullerbacke13 I guess I really just wanted to stress out the point that timings are so up there and demand alot of skills. I agree with you, I will try and clarify
@ernieohneBert Zerg is the particular race where Larva is also a ressource. Unfortunatly, the only answer to this problem before the scouting is to approach zerg as you would a terran or protoss. Simply stay on top of your macro, and produce both drones and units at the same time to start out. I still think this approach is valid, simply because of the low level of play when you are still at that point in your hike up!
Thx tang, means a lot specially since you coach so much and witness this first hand!
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Economy->Knowledge->Production->Information->Army->Control->Force->Build->Management->Micro-Management->Timings->Dusting
In my opinion I feel that this order feels more "right" I guess.
Economy is duh. But I feel without knowledge of WHAT these units do, production serves no purpose. I've played a ZvT when I was starting out where I was 4 base vs 2 base terran. I mass produced roaches, thinking its a fairly well round unit (like the protoss stalker). I maxed out much earlier than the terran, producing far more units. I send my units in, he has marauders and tanks. I lose the game, because though I have FAR production, but his units, thanks to superior knowledge over come mine.
I think control and force take precedence over build, as we've said, that this pyramid is more over towards the importance of a long macro game. The ability to apply pressure and control max armies feels more important in a macro game then getting a stargate after your second gateway.
I feel the pyramid can't be applied to short games, as production would be of little importance in a 6 pool
Either way, I think it's a good pyramid to start people off, just nit picking what I think is more important, sharing ideas all that jazz. But maybe it's better to combine groups? I feel that by making such small groups, that it becomes very specific to only the "ideal" macro situation, and leaves little variance.
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On August 12 2011 05:05 sas911 wrote:
Economy is duh. But I feel without knowledge of WHAT these units do, production serves no purpose.
I don't think so. You can just make lings and blings as I said and just shit all over your opponent till he dies (blings breaking walls zerglings killing off the rest). Everyone can a-move that takes no knowledge and if your production and eco are far superior he can micro, know and build order all day long to no avail.
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Hey Budha.  It's Sparky. Great job on the pyramid!
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@sas911 I actually use to feel this way until I got to a certain level. Fun story: I was in a forum and a fellow zerg asked me what is a good strategy vs Terran. He was platinum. I answered with "Out macro him, it will not matter". Naturally this sparked a discussion, so we set off to prove it. We found a typical platinum player (around 20th) and I played him. The strategy of choice was roach hydras, and i went on to win the game producing ONLY roaches and Hydras
The point you made on build vs Force and Control - I completely agree! If it wasn't for a simple thing: is that it is sooooooo easy to steal a professional build, that it will actually help you more than the rest. Without this, I would have placed it after force and control.
The problem with combining groups - That i found - Is that it makes it overwhelming to actually steadily progress, as you are overwhelmed with information.
I know I've criticized you a lot It just so happens I've given it much thought since I just revised it. You make great points, one of the more constructive comments!
- Thanks Sparky!
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Great article , now I know on what I should focus
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I just sent you a pimped pyramid, I hope you like it.
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I would trade "dusting" by "Ph.D.".
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I got to masters league with steps 1-6, therefore I think there is a major flaw in this.
Also step 10.
Edit; Also want to say, my apm avg is 50-70
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Mm I don't know about this, PvP and ZvZ even at gold/plat league is pretty micro-heavy and management is something you need even in plat & diamond against muta harass and terran drops.
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great post, thanks dude !
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Seems like you forgot section 0: Strategy.
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OP is obviously not playing Zerg.
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OP, good job with the post! Explaining the various parts and why some are more important than others would definitely help guide newer players who don't know where to start.
I definitely agree that the whole concept of timing and especially "timing pushes" is overrated. In any league below diamond, timing isn't going to be the difference between breaking someone's defense or losing your whole army for nothing. It's much more important to just know when to commit to an attack or when to back off, depending on what you see from your opponent.
However, I think that management should be considered a lot more important.
This is when you will get harassed, you will lose bases, you will be overwhelmed by the amount of stuff going on. Management is keeping your cool.
"Keeping your cool" is incredibly important. Regardless of what level of play you're at, you can't get flustered because of an early attack or drop. Yes, it's difficult to always be perfectly unaffected and respond to everything at once, but if you let drops and such disrupt your play to a large extent, then it can really counteract everything else you had been doing right up to that point.
I'm not sure where management should be on the pyramid, but I believe it should be considerably more important.
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Budha, I will give you MASS respect for this post, in terms of time spent on it. You clearly spent a lot of effort both in planning and in writing it. However, I disagree with it completely.
Not only can you sacrifice a lower part to gain an advantage for the higher part, but a player that is far superior in, say, game decisions and control, like Goody, will beat a player who has better macro, like we see Goody do with his 5 queued marines. Players with near perfect macro and economy management lose to goody all the time because he makes better decisions than them.
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This is a great tool, because a lot of new players will suck at a lot of things, and this will allow them to focus their practice on the most important concepts first.
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1720 Posts
information is way more important than economy
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EPT
