EPT@CeriseCherries This is by no means a skill measurement technique. Not its aim at all :D
The Starcraft Pyramid - Page 3
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
@CeriseCherries This is by no means a skill measurement technique. Not its aim at all :D | ||
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Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
On August 11 2011 06:14 Budha wrote: @Grimsong +1 Consistency, altought I would like to keep it related to Build Order... Maybe Build Consistency? This is fine however Consistency is not actually synonymous with what I had in mind. Consistency in your buildorders are one thing but that does not take in mind the decisions such as how many unit-producing structures are needed. Maybe Soundness is a better way to put it? | ||
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
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VassiliZaytsev
Canada45 Posts
On August 11 2011 06:52 CeriseCherries wrote: I really think that its hard to define skills as a pyramid. For instance, you could have excellent mechanics (macro) and not beat someone with worse mechanics and execution. For instance Boxer, who is not particularly inspiring in his macro, will beat other players with tip-top macro because of his execution and creativity. Skills run parallel, synergyzing with each other, not necessarily building off each other Boxer may or may not have the most inspiring macro, but you can't argue that without at least around the same level of macro as his opponents he would be taking games of many good players. Obviously it's hard to judge the "size" of each level of the pyramid in relation to how important it is but you can micro your first 4 hellions as much as you want in a zvt, kill 300 lings, then realize you have 2000 minerals when they die. Meanwhile your opponent put down a spire and pumped 15 mutas while you were doing all that damage. Basically I really agree with this pyramid and as several TLers mentioned it was pretty much exactly the way I learned. All the micro in the world (usually) cant save you if his army is 3x your size (Obviously there are game to game exceptions but in a broader sense I believe this is true). | ||
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
From base to top Mechanics + Show Spoiler + When you start with RTS, a focus on mechanics will always lead to the best long term results. Instead of focusing on what to do, you should be focusing on doing things efficiently and eventually, inefficiently for better timings. I always liken every action in SC2 to an item in a grocery store, and you executing an action to buying that item. If the goal is to win, or have the right items to cook your dinner, you will almost always have better chances if you can choose 200 items to buy rather than 20. And later on, it doesn't matter if you choose 80 items completely perfectly if you're still missing the 60 items necessary to cook your meal. (It doesn't matter if you make 80 perfect decisions if you didn't have enough time to make the other 60 decisions that were also completely necessary to win.) Hence the real-time in RTS. Understanding the game + Show Spoiler + If the previous stage was the boring humdrum part, this is the part that gets the most attention. Here's where you learn why spawns on certain maps matter. Where you start drawing relationships between choosing action X in situation Y resulting in Z. Here's where you get many players who honestly should be focusing on their mechanics trying to figure out what they should be doing. Let's theorycraft ZZTP v PPTT! Seriously, if it takes you a full second to make an scv, you're doing it wrong. Learn your mechanics! But if you've got all your execution down pat, here's where the strategy in the RTS comes in. Super-efficiency + Show Spoiler + This is the shortcut step that really should not be taken so early in a player's development if he plans on being the best. Here's where you time having X units out at time Y. Optimizing everything from what second you send out a peon out so that it has the money to build as it arrives to how many peons on gas to even what second in the game you should be doing a second scout. It's very easy to start with super-efficiency and start posting results that are not very indicative of your true skill level. You may simply be carried by a build or a timing. One patch can completely ruin your win rate. Metagaming + Show Spoiler + Once you have learned super-efficiency, here's where using deliberate inefficiencies can come into play. Or cutting corners because you know your opponent. TLO saving 550 minerals before throwing down 4 rax simultaneously? F91 waiting until 1 minute after the 3hat lurker sling allin timing before going bananas on IdrA? Taking 4 bases before you make a single bling/roach/muta because it's GoOdy? Shoot, if your opponent isn't water and insists on having a very deliberate playstyle... his loss for being so predictable and so counterable. | ||
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Zestage
United States15 Posts
@cogwheel You summed up my perspective better than I could have myself! I guess it's like a business. You can focus on a strategy for each department and getting results on a department level, AND you can focus on a big picture "what is my business doing and how am I making money doing it (and really, how is it growing?)?". In this analogy, the idea of the pyramid suits the latter, but not the former so much. On August 11 2011 06:09 Chiller274 wrote: I think you should improve to a method which can be run in cycles and defines input and output to the next steps and maybe integrate a middle where you can store all you improvements. This would visualize the neverending process of improving in starcraft 2 I LOVE this idea... you have the pyramid showing the "big picture" and the cycle that kind of breaks it down and applies the theory to reality. Maybe like a workout kind of system? "For 5 games, focus on injects every 30 seconds. For the next game, focus on spending all your money all the time, even if you have to drop thousands of producing buildings. Next game, scout the enemies base every minute on the minute. Next game, micro your units everytime they are in battle, even to the point of forgetting to inject and macro." Next it's 3 games of injects, 3 games of spending money, 1 game of scouting, 1 game of micro. Next 1 game of injects, 1 game of spending money, 5 games of scouting, 5 games of micro. I'm oversimplifying it, but I'm brainstorming at this point. Thoughts? (besides "Wow Zestage, that's a long post!") | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
I personally feel like your steps "force" and "management" should be more on the same level. You don't even need to be a high level player when people start using basic/easy tricks like dropping something in your main and attacking the natural with the rest of the army or running a few lings in your mineral line etc etc, nothing crazy micro or multitasking related. Forcing the zerg to not drone too much is pretty important, but all the other aspects you mentioned in your step "force" seem less important to me than the things you describe in "management". Forcing the opponent to make certain units etc can benefit you ofc, nevertheless having basic knowledge about units (like scouting + making the right counter units) has been covered in steps 3 and 4 (knowledge and information) already. If you can manage any harass decently while still making the right units definitely outways forcing the opponent to do something (like getting detection/anti air). However, that's just my personal opinion based on my experience, but something you should consider since you put "management" not only one step higher than "force", but completely to a new level (you divided it into basic and advanced steps). | ||
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Excludos
Norway8281 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
But he used to produce pure lings and has crushed HT / Zealot / Archon comps with Lings just because his production and economy is so superior to everyone else's. | ||
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Xecutor
Canada12 Posts
 I actually like the concepts you touched upon, and if you look at the rearrangement I made, that might actually be more helpful and encourage people to read through the whole thing if you post the videos first.Here is what it looks like when the videos are presented first. I know that here it only appears as a link, but if you label the videos clearly as you have (kinda), it won't be an issue. http://blizzforums.com/showthread.php?30801-The-Starcraft-Pyramid-(TL-budha)-BlizzForums-Featured-Article @ mods: I am sorry if this is not allowed, but I was merely showcasing how this article would look if presented differently to help the OP. Also, when are we getting embedded youtube? :D | ||
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
@Fairwell Thanks for the excellent feedback! One of the more constructive! I completely agree with you with the fact that you don't need "that much micro" to harass (or to master the Force phase). I think that what I had in mind with the management phase is a bit more finesse than what I actually explained, I will try to precise that. The "Management" part was actually inspired by one of the Day9Daylies, where Day9 explained that base management was the big difference between a Diamond and a Masters player. I tried to elaborate on that, and that is why I would like to leave it at the top level of the pyramid (I will be color-coding it today) @Emperor_Earth I will be revising the post and adding mechanics in there in a special way. I think that mechanics should not be a section on its own, but every step in the pyramid should assume the mechanics to perform it. Your next three sections are pretty much a sum-up of the whole thing. I feel like you did not read the descriptions? Especially if you mention MetaGaming - Which I cover in the final step! @Chiller and Zestage This seems to be the big problem here, no cycle! I will add on an analogy in the "Using the pyramid" section, translating it to a waterfall. You are at the bottom, swimming your way up, and if you stop swimming, you will just fall back to the lower levels! I think it really shows the recursive aspect in Starcraft and is more adequate to the structure, as it keeps it linear, which is A LOT easier to follow if you're trying to improve of coach. @Morghaine I LOOOVE that example Might just feature it in the edit!@ Xacuotr I'll take a look and work in what I liked! I don't think admins will have a problem with it, because I think it will help me improve the quality of this Guide! | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
Economy/production > Scouting > Micro This applies to all strategies and builds, including the four-gate. It may be easy to do the economy/production part of the 4-gate, but forgetting to reinforce from the proxy pylon is the most critical mistake one can make while 4-gating. It should be your highest priority, even if it's easy and takes little time to do. Everyone is always scared of looking away from the battle, but the truth is, it is almost aways worth it. A few exceptions do apply, mainly when fighting against siege tanks (with anything), banelings (with marines, sentries or lings), or controlling a sentry who's job is to forcefield the ramp at a critical moment. | ||
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Alexj
Ukraine440 Posts
PvZ -- if I macro macro macro, zerg will macro macro macro even faster. He will get 2-3 more bases than me, and his broodlords or infestors will win over my deathball. Now what do I see in your pyramid? Pressuring zerg -- Force -- is step 8. Trying to micro around infestors and broodlords (both screw up a lot with unit movement) -- Management/Micro-management -- are even further PvT -- multiple drops into strong timing attack is what's killing me the most. (Although constant streams of mmm when I forget to order units during the battle are admittedly another big reason for my looses -- and that's just my bad macro). Banshee pressure and allins with thors are also screwing me hard. Even if my opponent builds only one banshee the whole game, it forces me stay on defensive. PvP -- well, let's not even go there. I guess that rant was pointed not at you, but at those who say that lower leagues can be mastered purely by macro. But your idea of a pyramid also suggests that. I definitely see the learning value in your post though, and might probably use it to plan on what to focus in my SC practice. Thanks for your effort! | ||
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julianto
2292 Posts
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Budha
Canada60 Posts
I see that you mentioned multiple drops into TIMING attacks. After multiple drops timing attacks do not exist anymore. They are simply pushes, especially in the platinum and lower leagues. Drops are very hard to deal with because the mechanics required to counter them are much harder to master than the ones required to do them, but it does come into the Information section! @Sbrubbles I like the part of not looking at the battles  I think I'll mention that briefly! | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
I totally agree with you and in the importance of these steps. A lots of Pro Gamers say that you have to struggle to become a better player! If you only want to get into master as fast as possible just try out one all in build after another and play a lots of games. But this doesn´t make you better overall. If you want to become a really good player just follow the piramid step by step. If you are training one thing enough, that you can do it blindly, go over to another one. This piramid don´t show a generell concept, how games develop. If somebody want to 6 pool or 4 gate you just say gg and search for another game. Who cares about allinners in the ladder? I will definitly try this out in the next few weeks. A lot of thanks for this thread! | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On August 11 2011 22:32 Budha wrote: @Morghaine I LOOOVE that example Might just feature it in the edit!Ya. He also opens 14gas/14pool, getting speed, leaving one drone on gas EVERY SINGLE GAME in every matchup. He also almost always gets a macro hatch up at 25 supply (100% against Protoss, interestingly enough). Which, obviously, you need when your production and economy management is up there. | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I have played RTS for 20 years, 14 of those online. My APM is around 50-60 up from 35 in beta and I am never fast enough to do even a fraction of the things I wish to do. If I try to micro my macro goes to hell, if I ignore micro by whole army gets wiped out. So APM really puts a hardcap on your ability to progress in the game. So the bottom of the Pyramid should be speed. Without enough speed you cannot really do anything of the above. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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