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Hi all,
Sorry if this was answered earlier in the thread - didn't read the 90 pages (lol!)
Just wondering if anyone can give the rationale for why almost all terrans choose to build reactor barracks vs. 2 naked barracks vs. zerg. To me, it always seems like reactor's have a bulls eye on them for muta's, and it is a pretty big setback to your production if muta's take out, say, a couple reactors.
Naked barracks = barely slower (15 in game seconds) and the resources are comparable (and gas is often more constrained than minerals anyway).
And finally, naked rax make great sim-cities to cut of zergling attack paths and run-by potential.
Yet I feel like you rarely see that at high levels - so rare to see a terran on 3 base and say 1 tech lab rax and 8 naked rax, but super common to see 1 TL rax and 4 reactor rax, yet to me the former is a lot safer than the later.
Thoughts?
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
People are of differing schools of thought on this. A lot of TvZ builds briefly have extra gas and are mineral-starved right before mineral income increases due to taking a 2nd or 3rd base, and during this time it makes sense to make a reactor. Often, builds incorporate the construction of a reactor into the build order (reactor hellion expo, for example). I personally make naked barracks in almost all matchups since my builds are often gas-intensive, but some players prefer to take an extra geyser, for example, and tech harder, then use the extra gas during the tech transition for reactors.
In TvP, I make a reactor as part of my opening because I want to cut marines for a quicker expo. This reactor can be kept or swapped to a starport later.
It's a matter of taste.
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Most Terrans build Reactors in the early game. With this the production in the midgame is better and you don´t need to build more barracks that soon, so that you can focus on your attack. Reactors also takes about 60 seconds to be build, so you have Minerals that you can spend elsewhere to get a good setup in the midgame. You have to be verry agressive in TvZ so you can´t focus that much on building your base. That´s my opinion. I only build reactors in the early game and then i just build naked barracks to block attackpaths force the zerg into one direction, when i´m between my attacks.
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Hey guys,
What is some good pressure builds to punish toss or be agressive with early game? I normally 1 rax FE into 4 rax pressure. Any ideas?
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Marauder FE is quite aggressive. You don't need an early bunker and if they move out with zealot/stalker you can often times catch them on the map.
I used a thor rush to punish a protoss FE, it worked very well when thor didn't have energy. Push at 2 thors, a bunch of marines and plenty of SCVs. When I was using the thor rush I usually got strike cannons but I don't think the thors will get enough energy for that nowadays.
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You can try 2 rax pressure and expand off that, but your best bet is the maurader expo:
1 rine, add tech lab
2x maurader with concussive
Then pressure with those 3 & your scouting scv, while doing this throw down your expo & add on more rax/tech
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Not sure of the exact build order but i usually go for 3rax expand (2tech lab 1 reactor) with 13gas so i can get fast stim and concussive shells. Then push out at maybe 5-7mins and expand behind that.
EDIT: This against toss ofc.
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Just wondering how do you guys hotkey in TvP with ghost and viking lategame, usually for me 1- marine maruader 2- vikings 3- ghosts. but i have trouble going 1t 2a "targetfiring" 3e and hitting emps spot on.
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I have the same hotkeys, and i think it's all about positioning and preparing. If you can predict when and/or where the toss is going to attack you can engage on him by dropping a few surprise EMP's then quickly stimming to him and flanking with the vikings. This of course is a best case scenario so usually i just have my ghost lurking around somewhere a bit away from the main army so that when the toss comes i don't have to stress on the ghost positioning.
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On December 15 2011 18:02 gavinashun wrote:
Hi all,
Sorry if this was answered earlier in the thread - didn't read the 90 pages (lol!)
Just wondering if anyone can give the rationale for why almost all terrans choose to build reactor barracks vs. 2 naked barracks vs. zerg. To me, it always seems like reactor's have a bulls eye on them for muta's, and it is a pretty big setback to your production if muta's take out, say, a couple reactors.
Naked barracks = barely slower (15 in game seconds) and the resources are comparable (and gas is often more constrained than minerals anyway).
And finally, naked rax make great sim-cities to cut of zergling attack paths and run-by potential.
Yet I feel like you rarely see that at high levels - so rare to see a terran on 3 base and say 1 tech lab rax and 8 naked rax, but super common to see 1 TL rax and 4 reactor rax, yet to me the former is a lot safer than the later.
Thoughts?
I open with a 1rax double OC expand and take a fairly fast 3rd so I always have lots of minerals and I do exactly what your saying. It is very helpful, I rarely take damage from mutas and I always use my numerous barracks to wall off the far side of my 3rd base so I'm safe from ling runbys as well. But yeah, alot of times pros have more gas then they need because of their openings so thats why I guess.
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On December 15 2011 14:19 Blazinghand wrote:Blazinghand's Replay Analysis...is back! Finals are over and I'm able to help people out again. On deck today are UpperBound and OOmpa. If you want help, post a replay of yourself losing a game, with your own analysis of what went wrong, and ask for help! People will be glad to help you, and I check in from time to time and do video reviews :D
Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:33 upperbound wrote:I need a LOT of help. I'm winning like 30% of my games lately and I don't know why. My macro feels pretty damn good, yet I just can't gain an edge any time in the game. Here's a game where my opponent gets decent creep spread and decides to mass expand on Shattered Temple with a good number of spine crawlers, and I basically can't touch him. I open reactor hellion expand, but he's prepared with several spines, so I just switch to a 10:00 timing attack. I've seen several pros advocate that this is the best version of the reactor hellion opening; 2 hellions then transition to marine/tank. Except 2 hellions is not enough to stop creep spread, and even the mid-diamond zergs that I face can spread creep over half the map by the 10:00 mark. Is this just a bad build? Are the pros wrong? He just kind of runs over my army twice despite triple expanding greedily, and the game is over at 17:00 when he runs over my planetary with mutas and banelings. I feel like I'm macroing up, getting units, but it doesn't matter. I try to fit in drops but I can't get enough in and still have a formidable timing push, and I feel like my apm (130-150) just isn't cutting it to do this properly. What should I be working on? I'm dead broke but still considering hiring a coach to at least give me things that I should be doing. In the lower leagues it was easy; work on SCV production, work on unit production, learn some scouting and timings. Now it's a lot less clear what it's going to take to get better. http://drop.sc/74297EDIT: And this guy, who just makes 7 queens then derps to a win http://drop.sc/74298One more, again just getting rolled. For whatever reason, my 19 depot cancelled, but beyond that I don't know what went wrong: http://drop.sc/74304 Hi UpperBound,I made a VoD reviewing your replay and offering advice. NOTE: I make a major tack in my analysis 6 minutes into the 2nd video on youtube, or 21 minutes into the video on twitch.tv. Although all my analysis before that is accurate, the really important stuff begins there. Video Review:Twitch.tv VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/302617690Embedded Youtube: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCAdGCo1AzI Game 1 + Show Spoiler +upperbound game 1
bunker rushing: don't show marines at gas steal or he won't make lings
reactor hellions: with jsut 2 hellions be more careful
8:30 scv count (27 scvs produced + 6 you start with) -- 33 scvs, you have 29, 10% cutting, not bad
10:30 push usually has combat shields -- also, if he's walled in with crawlers, try to either siege harass them if they few, or go for a different target if they are many
Drop 14:30-- kill spotting zerglings
After you see mutas: it's important to upgrade marines so that they eat them
Fighting against Spanishiwa's No-gas ZvX
Scouting: look for lack of a vespene geyser before completion of hatchery
Fighting: attack before he has ling speed or banes-- you have a timing window before 10:00, after that he will win unless you a quick third
Fighting version 2: take a really quick third Game 2 + Show Spoiler +upperbound game 2
that many queens --> take a quick third for free
be careful with hellions
rear tanks not close enough to front tank at 11:20
priority for siege tank shots: banelings then lings then queens
what happened: tanks didn't shoot at banes, therefore marines died
practice that kind of engagement against speed banes Game 3 + Show Spoiler +game 3
keep marines under protective umbrelle of tanks
don't let creep tumors get behind you
focus banes with tanks -- similar engagement stuff
you cut hella marines during your fight, which is unusual-- try not to do this
Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:14 OOmpa wrote:Posted here before without success. Will try out again. UPDATE with drop.sc link http://drop.sc/74505?pass=e11d57c9-6cf1-4e25-950f-580bbda61c03I'm lost masters/high diamond terran At the time I always open reactor hellion FE vs Z. And keep denying the z creeping with 4-6 hellions as expand and researching stim + seige. I struggle sometimes in TvZ where I feel i should win but lose against sloppy unit control. And my questions are: 1. If one loses the 4-6 hellions due to sloppyness, should one delay the first timing attack or can one feel comfortable doing the first push with rines + tanks? 2. In late game when one is sitting on a tank+rine+medivac death ball and one should move out, how far from the enemys units do you set with tanks etc? Do you do it just outside their main base? 3. Once one has set up the 'death ball', do you keep moving forward with a couple rines and tanks or do you wait for reinforcements? Hi OOmpa,I made a VoD reviewing your replay and offering advice. Video Review:Twitch.tv VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/302617956Embedded Youtube: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXOmyapwRo OOmpa / Deja
Shakuras plateau: easy map to defend on
scan to kill creep tumors during marine tank push
once you've been on his creep for 1:30, time to retreat
position un-addoned rax to prevent runbys into natural
never let a creep tumor get behind you
In the final battle, you still have a chance, but you get caught unsieged
marines kill everything zerg has except banelings and infestors
tanks can 1-shot clumps of banelings and have more range, and 2-shot infestors. the purpose of tanks is to protected marines from their counters
to do this, you generally need to be sieged up, you gotta kill creep tumors
1. if you lose the hellions, it's still okay to do the push, but most of the time you'll kill some creep tumors and go home and that's it
2. start being in seige mode as soon as you're at their creep, then slowly go forward, killing creep tumors - never let a creep tumor be behind you
3. usually wait for reinforcements, move forward if he doesn't have banelings-- it depends on his creep spread and army size
I hope this helped! Anyone else looking for replay reviews can post their replays asking for help here in the Terran Help Thread, but I won't be getting to them until this weekend.
This is seriously awesome, thanks man.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On December 15 2011 22:20 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 14:19 Blazinghand wrote:Blazinghand's Replay Analysis...is back! Finals are over and I'm able to help people out again. On deck today are UpperBound and OOmpa. If you want help, post a replay of yourself losing a game, with your own analysis of what went wrong, and ask for help! People will be glad to help you, and I check in from time to time and do video reviews :D
On December 14 2011 14:33 upperbound wrote:I need a LOT of help. I'm winning like 30% of my games lately and I don't know why. My macro feels pretty damn good, yet I just can't gain an edge any time in the game. Here's a game where my opponent gets decent creep spread and decides to mass expand on Shattered Temple with a good number of spine crawlers, and I basically can't touch him. I open reactor hellion expand, but he's prepared with several spines, so I just switch to a 10:00 timing attack. I've seen several pros advocate that this is the best version of the reactor hellion opening; 2 hellions then transition to marine/tank. Except 2 hellions is not enough to stop creep spread, and even the mid-diamond zergs that I face can spread creep over half the map by the 10:00 mark. Is this just a bad build? Are the pros wrong? He just kind of runs over my army twice despite triple expanding greedily, and the game is over at 17:00 when he runs over my planetary with mutas and banelings. I feel like I'm macroing up, getting units, but it doesn't matter. I try to fit in drops but I can't get enough in and still have a formidable timing push, and I feel like my apm (130-150) just isn't cutting it to do this properly. What should I be working on? I'm dead broke but still considering hiring a coach to at least give me things that I should be doing. In the lower leagues it was easy; work on SCV production, work on unit production, learn some scouting and timings. Now it's a lot less clear what it's going to take to get better. http://drop.sc/74297EDIT: And this guy, who just makes 7 queens then derps to a win http://drop.sc/74298One more, again just getting rolled. For whatever reason, my 19 depot cancelled, but beyond that I don't know what went wrong: http://drop.sc/74304 Hi UpperBound,I made a VoD reviewing your replay and offering advice. NOTE: I make a major tack in my analysis 6 minutes into the 2nd video on youtube, or 21 minutes into the video on twitch.tv. Although all my analysis before that is accurate, the really important stuff begins there. Video Review:Twitch.tv VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/302617690Embedded Youtube: + Show Spoiler +My semi-comprehensive written notes:Game 1 + Show Spoiler +upperbound game 1
bunker rushing: don't show marines at gas steal or he won't make lings
reactor hellions: with jsut 2 hellions be more careful
8:30 scv count (27 scvs produced + 6 you start with) -- 33 scvs, you have 29, 10% cutting, not bad
10:30 push usually has combat shields -- also, if he's walled in with crawlers, try to either siege harass them if they few, or go for a different target if they are many
Drop 14:30-- kill spotting zerglings
After you see mutas: it's important to upgrade marines so that they eat them
Fighting against Spanishiwa's No-gas ZvX
Scouting: look for lack of a vespene geyser before completion of hatchery
Fighting: attack before he has ling speed or banes-- you have a timing window before 10:00, after that he will win unless you a quick third
Fighting version 2: take a really quick third Game 2 + Show Spoiler +upperbound game 2
that many queens --> take a quick third for free
be careful with hellions
rear tanks not close enough to front tank at 11:20
priority for siege tank shots: banelings then lings then queens
what happened: tanks didn't shoot at banes, therefore marines died
practice that kind of engagement against speed banes Game 3 + Show Spoiler +game 3
keep marines under protective umbrelle of tanks
don't let creep tumors get behind you
focus banes with tanks -- similar engagement stuff
you cut hella marines during your fight, which is unusual-- try not to do this
On December 15 2011 07:14 OOmpa wrote:Posted here before without success. Will try out again. UPDATE with drop.sc link http://drop.sc/74505?pass=e11d57c9-6cf1-4e25-950f-580bbda61c03I'm lost masters/high diamond terran At the time I always open reactor hellion FE vs Z. And keep denying the z creeping with 4-6 hellions as expand and researching stim + seige. I struggle sometimes in TvZ where I feel i should win but lose against sloppy unit control. And my questions are: 1. If one loses the 4-6 hellions due to sloppyness, should one delay the first timing attack or can one feel comfortable doing the first push with rines + tanks? 2. In late game when one is sitting on a tank+rine+medivac death ball and one should move out, how far from the enemys units do you set with tanks etc? Do you do it just outside their main base? 3. Once one has set up the 'death ball', do you keep moving forward with a couple rines and tanks or do you wait for reinforcements? Hi OOmpa,I made a VoD reviewing your replay and offering advice. Video Review:Twitch.tv VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/302617956Embedded Youtube: + Show Spoiler +My semi-comprehensive written notes:+ Show Spoiler +OOmpa / Deja
Shakuras plateau: easy map to defend on
scan to kill creep tumors during marine tank push
once you've been on his creep for 1:30, time to retreat
position un-addoned rax to prevent runbys into natural
never let a creep tumor get behind you
In the final battle, you still have a chance, but you get caught unsieged
marines kill everything zerg has except banelings and infestors
tanks can 1-shot clumps of banelings and have more range, and 2-shot infestors. the purpose of tanks is to protected marines from their counters
to do this, you generally need to be sieged up, you gotta kill creep tumors
1. if you lose the hellions, it's still okay to do the push, but most of the time you'll kill some creep tumors and go home and that's it
2. start being in seige mode as soon as you're at their creep, then slowly go forward, killing creep tumors - never let a creep tumor be behind you
3. usually wait for reinforcements, move forward if he doesn't have banelings-- it depends on his creep spread and army size
I hope this helped! Anyone else looking for replay reviews can post their replays asking for help here in the Terran Help Thread, but I won't be getting to them until this weekend. This is seriously awesome, thanks man.
That spanishiwa-style game really threw me for a loop. That's a very dated strategy. Strong, as you can see-- but dated. It's old enough I almost forgot what the response was. BTW don't expect 45 minutes of help every time you post. It just turned out that only two people posted in the last week and I was just coming back so I thought I'd look at all three replays.
EDIT: The reason Spanishiwa's no-gas FE ZvX has faded from the metagame is due to the lack of map control from speedlings. However, standard play now includes getting a 3rd queen, and only mining 100 gas for zergling speed then droning, sort of a "hybrid Spanishiwa" style-- his build was successful enough that elements of it got incorporated into Standard.
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France12970 Posts
Hi, does anyone know if the double factory blue flame hellion + marine timing attack (after a 2rax or 1rax FE opening) is still a good transition or too outdated? Some time ago (in the code A qualifiers where Jjakji qualified for code A) it was still used a lot but I nearly don't see it anymore.
EDIT : TvZ, sry I forgot to point that out ><
And, if anyone watch a lot of vods like GSL or online cups (preferably GSL), which transition do you see the most in TvZ on crossfire after an expand? And is there any gasless expand on this map?
I can't watch GSL and often in MLG replays there are not a lot of crossfire replays, especially not coming from koreans.
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Sorry guys, not really a help me post, but I figured I'd share the most hilarious defensive nuke ever. This is how you win games when you play like complete garbage:
http://drop.sc/75187
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Hi everyone, trying to figure out a good transition out of gasless 1rax FE in TvP. I already have a pretty nice followup for big maps where the Toss goes Nexus first of 1gate FE. However I want to be able to transition safely when I scout the Toss taking both gases, most likely going for some one base strat.
I watched MVP's Providence TvP replays and he seems to transition into marine tank push in smaller maps. These kind of pushes seem a feasible choice, but what confuses me is that in some games he decides to skip banshees altogether for more marines. What is the line of thinking with banshees( no cloak )/no banshees here?
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Well put simply it hits faster, and you can also expand behind it. If you add banshees it becomes pretty all-in.
If you want to be safe after 1 rax expand, go 4 rax marine heavy with either stim or combat sheild.
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On December 17 2011 07:59 duckmaster wrote:
Hi everyone, trying to figure out a good transition out of gasless 1rax FE in TvP. I already have a pretty nice followup for big maps where the Toss goes Nexus first of 1gate FE. However I want to be able to transition safely when I scout the Toss taking both gases, most likely going for some one base strat.
I watched MVP's Providence TvP replays and he seems to transition into marine tank push in smaller maps. These kind of pushes seem a feasible choice, but what confuses me is that in some games he decides to skip banshees altogether for more marines. What is the line of thinking with banshees( no cloak )/no banshees here?
Lots of good transitions out of 1 rax FE.
The main splits are:
# of raxes (3,4,5)
Tech to starport or ghosts ghosts (or in the case of 5 rax, nothing)
Marine tank shenanigans are not standard, but make for strong timing pushes, afaik.
Theorycraft a bit and try out different transitions against different P openings until you find your own path.
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What is the best way to punish an early expansion from another player as Terran? What builds would you recommend if I scout an FE out of a Protoss, Zerg, or Terran?
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Whats the best response to 3 gate twilight council into charge. The protoss player then went for templar archives and i thought he was trying to do some 4 gate blink so i turtled up. for some kind of all-in. What would be the appropriate response to a Protoss thats teching to charge very fast?
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I have questions to those of you who know how Zerg thinks more than I do, mainly my second question.
I always open reactor hellion vs Zerg
1) Say I manage to scout Zerg;s base before the natural hatch @ 14~ supply, am I right to keep doing what I'm doing, which is attempting to severely delay the expo, often by making an eng bay in it's place? Or is this a waste of minerals that could be better used elsewhere.
2) Say I do delay the Zerg's expo, and instead of taking it the Zerg retreats his drone into his base and doesn't expo. What should I do in this situation. Bear in mind I've been gearing up for reactor hellion. Should I completely change my gameplay to bio in anticipation of some kind of all in, particularly roaches?
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EPT
