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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map?
There's a guide on Sky Terran that I'm using right now instead of Bio for the most part. It takes a bit of learning, but you get really funny BM from toss when you use it right.  For me it took about 10 losses to learn it, it takes a lot of expanding, harassment, and a bit of basetrading to figure it out. Link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283935
There's also a guide on Mass Marine called "Stimmed probe's Million Man Marine TvP". It basically uses mass marines with constant aggression to win games. Link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200525
I regularly use Sky Terran in TvP. Though I still play bio from time to time, I use it a lot. I haven't tried "Million Man Marine" yet, but I plan to since it seems extremely fun.
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On August 06 2011 11:42 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 07:36 ilion wrote:
TvP 1 rax gasless FE questions:
How many bunkers at my natural is too much? 4? This is obviously when I've scouted a 3gate robo or 4gate.
Also, how do you deal with blink stalker? As in a rush to blink. I've never actually faced this so I don't know when the timing for a blink rush to finish is, but I still forsee it as being a weakness of a gasless FE. Ideally you wanto build as few as possible anything past 2 tends to really cut into your bio, you can actully cut ur bunker needs down by using a sim city of supply depots in front to make them more effective. If its extremely obvious all-in (like a 4 gate) then at least 3/sim city. Sim city vs protoss every game and ul notice a world of differance in your TvP.
Can you post a replay or an image that would provide an example of this SimCity you are talking about. I was clear wheter it was build a wall of supply depots as the front line and then a wall of bunkers or if it ment to simply build really close together in your expansion.
Thanks!
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On August 06 2011 11:42 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ideally you wanto build as few as possible anything past 2 tends to really cut into your bio, you can actully cut ur bunker needs down by using a sim city of supply depots in front to make them more effective. If its extremely obvious all-in (like a 4 gate) then at least 3/sim city. Sim city vs protoss every game and ul notice a world of differance in your TvP.
Sorry, I don't see how Supply depots will help against Immortal busts or even 6/7-gate pushs, since you need all available space for your repairing SCVs because of Forcefields. Besides, you have simply no way to protect said Depots from being sniped by Immortals or Stalkers before the fight, which most of the time will result in you being supply blocked at the worst possible time. Zealots are not the problem in those pushes, they're here to tank with Guardian Shield while his ranged units deal with smalls parts of your defence; the problem is Forcefields prevent the SCV from repairing, so if you have Depots in front, you will have even less surface to surround your bunkers with SCVs, and Forcefields will push back the few SCVs near/behind your bunkers, leaving them undefended.
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On December 13 2011 00:33 Kukaracha wrote:
Fellow Terrans, two simple but yet painful questions.
1) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with Roach/BL.
When I sense BL coming, I usually go more Thor-heavy, skipping tanks as they'll do nothing but damage my own units. I'll have a half-dozen unsieged tanks when I engage. But then, billion Roaches and *poof* no army. The dozen of BLs helps too. And since it's mech there is no magic trick to get a whole army again, I lose the second I lose an engagement.
2) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with tech switches.
So I see Speedlings right. All good. The Banes. Still good. Mutas! Perfect, I produce the necessary units.
But then, for just a few minerals and a bit of gas, he goes from 160 food Mutaling to 160 food Roaches. My army is suddenly irrelevant.
So, how do you prevent this?
High diamond by the way.
Yeah I've been struggling with the same problems =) But over the past month my TvZ has been getting much better. I'm high diamond too.
1.
Thors can work vs BL/Roach, but only if you opened mech. You need upgraded Thors+BFH+SCVs in order to do the job.
The only way that Thors work vs Roaches is with auto-repair. The Hellion splash should allow your Thors to ignore the Broodlings. SCVs should keep everything alive long enough for the Thors to kill the BLs (which does feel like it takes forever) If the Z decides to focus fire Thors to ignore repair, then your AOE (both the GtG from the Hellions and the GtA from the Thors) will do tons more damage, so its a fair trade.
Thors are not the best solution to Roach/BL, honestly you're better off with good ole MMM, or trendy Ghosts. But Thors can work as long as you've done enough damage before the BLs pop so there isn't more than 5-6 of them. More than that, then, well...you probably lost the game like 5 minutes ago, and the Zerg is just taking his sweet time to finish you off.
Repair is your magic trick to get a whole army again with mech. A 200 food mech ball with 0 SCVs on autorepair is nothing compared to a 200 mech ball with 12 SCVs not letting anything dip below yellow, paving the rally path with turrets+sensor towers+PFs+Bunkers, and floating proxy raxes for high ground vision.
2.
Yeah, tech switches suck. The best way to deal with them is to see them in advance. Click on an enemy unit when in combat. Is he stuck at 0/0 upgrades? Or has multiple unit types at 3/3? If so, assume a tech switch is coming your way and fall back upon our okay-against-everything units: Marines, Thors, and Ghosts. Ditch our good-against-some-things units such as Marauders, Vikings, and Banshees. The worst feeling in the world is to get caught with Marauders vs BLs or Vikings vs Ultras.
And if the Z is somewhere between 0/0 and 3/3? Don't worry about a tech switch too much. Upgrades show a Zerg's commitment to his unit composition. If he's going for fast 3/0 Lings then you don't need to worry about Roaches (or Mutas) anytime soon; that would make all his melee attack upgrades worthless. Even if such a Z does decide to switch to a hard counter, you'll have the upgrade advantage to help balance things out. You did upgrade...didn't you?!?!
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What's the standard 3 base econ infrastructure in TvZ? I've been underestimating a lot lately and ending up with slower 3 base timings due to underproducing. Here's a standard replay when I take a somewhat early (about 2 minutes early) third:
http://drop.sc/74151
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On December 14 2011 05:38 upperbound wrote:What's the standard 3 base econ infrastructure in TvZ? I've been underestimating a lot lately and ending up with slower 3 base timings due to underproducing. Here's a standard replay when I take a somewhat early (about 2 minutes early) third: http://drop.sc/74151
Before any pricks pick this apart -- My opinion. I am not ranked high in masters, I'm 11-5 431 points. Last 4 games were against a 1270, 1250, and ~30th at the time grandmaster. So my MMR is rather high as is my off the wall jeffrey style play. This is what I am for, and it serves me well.
Depends on your strategy, reactors and tech labs, and gas/upgrade timings. However, I aim for 1 fac per base, so 3 base 3 fac. At least 8+ rax, 7 with reactors 1 tech lab because all the new ones being 9-whatever should be left naked for tech labs, or immediate tech labs. Makes ghost transition actually kick in. 1 starport for reactor medics does just fine, I go 3 (don't know why) vs BL for double reactor 1 naked. In my mind I can make 4 vikings 1 medic and still be sufficient on the ground.
I aim for, on two base, 5-2-1 usually. Once I get the 3rd is when I amp up the raxes, as usually I'm in the midst of starting 2/2 and 0/2 for mech at that point with the recent gas influx.
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On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map?
sounds like my typical TvP game. Ahead in every way, trying my hardest to harass and macro well and then get rolled over by Toss deathball :/ I really don't know how to punish protoss for their gay turtle/upgrade style without all-inning...
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Can someone point me to a decent BO or replays for a standard TvT mech opener? There was a thread that had a build, but that variant hasn't really felt very safe (if I understand it right, it calls for 0 marines), and there aren't any replays to show finer points (one linked in the OP appears to be dead). So, can anyone point me to better? Thanks for any help!
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On December 14 2011 06:18 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map? sounds like my typical TvP game. Ahead in every way, trying my hardest to harass and macro well and then get rolled over by Toss deathball :/ I really don't know how to punish protoss for their gay turtle/upgrade style without all-inning...
It's all about timing, there are several windows when you can put pressure on.
Just after they 1 gate FE
Just after they start colossus production
Just after they get their 3rd
That's 3 good chances to end the game before they start to become really scary. You don't have to all-in to hit the second two windows and you can aim to hit both with two different timing attacks.
Of course toss can play cautious and minimise these windows, and in this case you need to take an advantage in different ways, e.g. by teching faster yourself or expanding faster.
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On December 14 2011 06:18 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map? sounds like my typical TvP game. Ahead in every way, trying my hardest to harass and macro well and then get rolled over by Toss deathball :/ I really don't know how to punish protoss for their gay turtle/upgrade style without all-inning...
Sadly, that is rarely true when people say it in TvP. They insist they are, but rarely is it true. If you WERE truely ahead, than your micro is awful if you lost a won fight.
I'd never be quick to say 'I'm so far ahead' against a protoss. 8-10 Gates, 2 robos, is all they need. They fight on your side of the map, and by the time you hit, 2 collsai chronoed out, 14 zeals, 4 HTs were warped in.
In saying that, there are many times you can win a game with a forced advantage, or if they cut units for tech or cut tech for units. I rarely all in in TvP anymore, and the opening I'm doing now gets a third done at 12:30 at the latest, and pushes with 3 tanks 2 medics and a bio ball with shields and stim. I can't say a 3-1-1 is all in, when I take a third before the protoss as I push and go into mass infantry off raxes. However, many tosses are unprepared for the tanks, and 3 tanks seals the deal. Even top masters, #1 in their division if you care of those rankings have lost to me using it. I posted a few reps a few pages back of the build. It's insanely strong and no more FF cutting you off at your ~11 min push. He FF? Siege and range him out. He cannot fight your units cut off without being in siege range if your tanks are at all decently placed. Forces immortal production, and into blink or charge for the apparent threat of tanks on the map.
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On December 14 2011 06:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:
In saying that, there are many times you can win a game with a forced advantage, or if they cut units for tech or cut tech for units. I rarely all in in TvP anymore, and the opening I'm doing now gets a third done at 12:30 at the latest, and pushes with 3 tanks 2 medics and a bio ball with shields and stim. I can't say a 3-1-1 is all in, when I take a third before the protoss as I push and go into mass infantry off raxes. However, many tosses are unprepared for the tanks, and 3 tanks seals the deal. Even top masters, #1 in their division if you care of those rankings have lost to me using it. I posted a few reps a few pages back of the build. It's insanely strong and no more FF cutting you off at your ~11 min push. He FF? Siege and range him out. He cannot fight your units cut off without being in siege range if your tanks are at all decently placed. Forces immortal production, and into blink or charge for the apparent threat of tanks on the map.
This is really interesting. I am still trying to win with MMM but its getting old real quick. I was going to learn 1-1-1 but this sounds interesting and less all-in
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Got any replays of this style mixing in tanks?
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On December 14 2011 08:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:http://drop.sc/72645 vs 1232 toss http://drop.sc/71721 vs smurf toss http://drop.sc/74177 vs 1k toss on smurf. Pardon the BM http://drop.sc/74178 vs 1.1ktoss who 3 gate VR, quick transition bad micro win. Games on my friends name I smurfed on. Even cooler is this reaper hellion medic strat I'm abusing zergs with lol. Yes, it's very all in, but SHITS on 2 base muta zergs. So funny.
Alright, this might be a stupid question..... But how do you kill a 2-base muta-ling-bling player without being able to shoot up?
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On December 13 2011 17:23 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:33 Kukaracha wrote:
Fellow Terrans, two simple but yet painful questions.
1) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with Roach/BL.
When I sense BL coming, I usually go more Thor-heavy, skipping tanks as they'll do nothing but damage my own units. I'll have a half-dozen unsieged tanks when I engage. But then, billion Roaches and *poof* no army. The dozen of BLs helps too. And since it's mech there is no magic trick to get a whole army again, I lose the second I lose an engagement.
2) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with tech switches.
So I see Speedlings right. All good. The Banes. Still good. Mutas! Perfect, I produce the necessary units.
But then, for just a few minerals and a bit of gas, he goes from 160 food Mutaling to 160 food Roaches. My army is suddenly irrelevant.
So, how do you prevent this?
High diamond by the way. Yeah I've been struggling with the same problems =) But over the past month my TvZ has been getting much better. I'm high diamond too. 1. Thors can work vs BL/Roach, but only if you opened mech. You need upgraded Thors+BFH+SCVs in order to do the job. The only way that Thors work vs Roaches is with auto-repair. The Hellion splash should allow your Thors to ignore the Broodlings. SCVs should keep everything alive long enough for the Thors to kill the BLs (which does feel like it takes forever) If the Z decides to focus fire Thors to ignore repair, then your AOE (both the GtG from the Hellions and the GtA from the Thors) will do tons more damage, so its a fair trade. Thors are not the best solution to Roach/BL, honestly you're better off with good ole MMM, or trendy Ghosts. But Thors can work as long as you've done enough damage before the BLs pop so there isn't more than 5-6 of them. More than that, then, well...you probably lost the game like 5 minutes ago, and the Zerg is just taking his sweet time to finish you off. Repair is your magic trick to get a whole army again with mech. A 200 food mech ball with 0 SCVs on autorepair is nothing compared to a 200 mech ball with 12 SCVs not letting anything dip below yellow, paving the rally path with turrets+sensor towers+PFs+Bunkers, and floating proxy raxes for high ground vision. 2. Yeah, tech switches suck. The best way to deal with them is to see them in advance. Click on an enemy unit when in combat. Is he stuck at 0/0 upgrades? Or has multiple unit types at 3/3? If so, assume a tech switch is coming your way and fall back upon our okay-against-everything units: Marines, Thors, and Ghosts. Ditch our good-against-some-things units such as Marauders, Vikings, and Banshees. The worst feeling in the world is to get caught with Marauders vs BLs or Vikings vs Ultras. And if the Z is somewhere between 0/0 and 3/3? Don't worry about a tech switch too much. Upgrades show a Zerg's commitment to his unit composition. If he's going for fast 3/0 Lings then you don't need to worry about Roaches (or Mutas) anytime soon; that would make all his melee attack upgrades worthless. Even if such a Z does decide to switch to a hard counter, you'll have the upgrade advantage to help balance things out. You did upgrade...didn't you?!?!
Thanks! : )
Of course I upgrade, I get a fast 2/2 off a double armory. But I just seem to be playing mech wrong, we'll see.
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On December 14 2011 08:08 Peanut Butter wrote:Alright, this might be a stupid question..... But how do you kill a 2-base muta-ling-bling player without being able to shoot up?
K what do they have that can kill reaper/hellion/medic. Nothing. Mass lings is a joke, just laugh and kite.. If they make over 10 roaches, you're kind of fucked. I try to get an expo around 7-8 min, and then go into 4 rax double reactor 2 tech lab mara marine. But honestly, one zerg today was the first (that I did strat well) that made it to mutas. He had like 6 drones when he had 7 mutas. I can make enough marines to win that game. Zergs save larva for mutas, along with gas and minerals. This forces roaches, or banes. If they bane, they lose if you control well. Means no mutas, and you can bio rape. If they go mutas, you win before they even get it. If they spine front? Jump up with reapers, and lift up hellions. If you think marine/blue flame elevator melts lings, try hellion/reaper hahaha
Even worse? It works in TvT the best. It's a joke TvZ I do, and so far... I've lost once with it.
Here, troll and enjoy.
http://drop.sc/71987
http://drop.sc/71986
http://drop.sc/74183
http://drop.sc/71840
http://drop.sc/71839
http://drop.sc/71984
All over 1k masters. Most if not all went 2 base muta, or some kind of ling strat that just gets worked over. Just lost to vilepsy, first 4 reapers didn't do shit, and then he massed roaches and I kept trying to pressure with fucking hellion reaper, lol. Lost sadly.
Here's some TvT examples.
http://drop.sc/72643 vs SCDKorlith going for a 1 rax FE I believe.
http://drop.sc/72642 vs Choasxtech going for exact same strat.
Both 1250-1300 terrans.
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2531 Posts
On December 14 2011 06:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:18 Scila wrote:On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map? sounds like my typical TvP game. Ahead in every way, trying my hardest to harass and macro well and then get rolled over by Toss deathball :/ I really don't know how to punish protoss for their gay turtle/upgrade style without all-inning... Sadly, that is rarely true when people say it in TvP. They insist they are, but rarely is it true. If you WERE truely ahead, than your micro is awful if you lost a won fight. I'd never be quick to say 'I'm so far ahead' against a protoss. 8-10 Gates, 2 robos, is all they need. They fight on your side of the map, and by the time you hit, 2 collsai chronoed out, 14 zeals, 4 HTs were warped in. In saying that, there are many times you can win a game with a forced advantage, or if they cut units for tech or cut tech for units. I rarely all in in TvP anymore, and the opening I'm doing now gets a third done at 12:30 at the latest, and pushes with 3 tanks 2 medics and a bio ball with shields and stim. I can't say a 3-1-1 is all in, when I take a third before the protoss as I push and go into mass infantry off raxes. However, many tosses are unprepared for the tanks, and 3 tanks seals the deal. Even top masters, #1 in their division if you care of those rankings have lost to me using it. I posted a few reps a few pages back of the build. It's insanely strong and no more FF cutting you off at your ~11 min push. He FF? Siege and range him out. He cannot fight your units cut off without being in siege range if your tanks are at all decently placed. Forces immortal production, and into blink or charge for the apparent threat of tanks on the map.
I can vote for this guy. I have completely adopted his play and have seen some great improvement. I'm still struggling if the game drags on the late but the build at least gives me a chance. I have scrapped 1 rax no gas expand ages ago. Mid-Masters here.
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On December 14 2011 08:31 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 14 2011 06:18 Scila wrote:On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map? sounds like my typical TvP game. Ahead in every way, trying my hardest to harass and macro well and then get rolled over by Toss deathball :/ I really don't know how to punish protoss for their gay turtle/upgrade style without all-inning... Sadly, that is rarely true when people say it in TvP. They insist they are, but rarely is it true. If you WERE truely ahead, than your micro is awful if you lost a won fight. I'd never be quick to say 'I'm so far ahead' against a protoss. 8-10 Gates, 2 robos, is all they need. They fight on your side of the map, and by the time you hit, 2 collsai chronoed out, 14 zeals, 4 HTs were warped in. In saying that, there are many times you can win a game with a forced advantage, or if they cut units for tech or cut tech for units. I rarely all in in TvP anymore, and the opening I'm doing now gets a third done at 12:30 at the latest, and pushes with 3 tanks 2 medics and a bio ball with shields and stim. I can't say a 3-1-1 is all in, when I take a third before the protoss as I push and go into mass infantry off raxes. However, many tosses are unprepared for the tanks, and 3 tanks seals the deal. Even top masters, #1 in their division if you care of those rankings have lost to me using it. I posted a few reps a few pages back of the build. It's insanely strong and no more FF cutting you off at your ~11 min push. He FF? Siege and range him out. He cannot fight your units cut off without being in siege range if your tanks are at all decently placed. Forces immortal production, and into blink or charge for the apparent threat of tanks on the map. I can vote for this guy. I have completely adopted his play and have seen some great improvement. I'm still struggling if the game drags on the late but the build at least gives me a chance. I have scrapped 1 rax no gas expand ages ago. Mid-Masters here.
It's how I planned to practice TvP into mid-late game. Early third, double ebay after third is up, and a slew of raxes. I need practice microing against toss, so I do it like in those replays. Want to not expo? Forget the 3rd, and get a 4th rax with a reactor and an ebay at ~8:30 to get +1.
I don't enjoy that, as I feel the push is only able to stun, not kill. If it kills, they aren't used to defending infantry/tank pushes, and the abusive tank range.
So, in short, if you don't want to go mid-late game, you can easily cut the expo, and get an earlier 4th and even 5th rax and put all your eggs in one basket.
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Does anyone know a good BO for a double eng bay TvP build off a 1 rax gas FE?
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2531 Posts
On December 14 2011 08:38 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:31 Psychobabas wrote:On December 14 2011 06:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 14 2011 06:18 Scila wrote:On December 13 2011 06:22 Bojas wrote:On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for. If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around. What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map? sounds like my typical TvP game. Ahead in every way, trying my hardest to harass and macro well and then get rolled over by Toss deathball :/ I really don't know how to punish protoss for their gay turtle/upgrade style without all-inning... Sadly, that is rarely true when people say it in TvP. They insist they are, but rarely is it true. If you WERE truely ahead, than your micro is awful if you lost a won fight. I'd never be quick to say 'I'm so far ahead' against a protoss. 8-10 Gates, 2 robos, is all they need. They fight on your side of the map, and by the time you hit, 2 collsai chronoed out, 14 zeals, 4 HTs were warped in. In saying that, there are many times you can win a game with a forced advantage, or if they cut units for tech or cut tech for units. I rarely all in in TvP anymore, and the opening I'm doing now gets a third done at 12:30 at the latest, and pushes with 3 tanks 2 medics and a bio ball with shields and stim. I can't say a 3-1-1 is all in, when I take a third before the protoss as I push and go into mass infantry off raxes. However, many tosses are unprepared for the tanks, and 3 tanks seals the deal. Even top masters, #1 in their division if you care of those rankings have lost to me using it. I posted a few reps a few pages back of the build. It's insanely strong and no more FF cutting you off at your ~11 min push. He FF? Siege and range him out. He cannot fight your units cut off without being in siege range if your tanks are at all decently placed. Forces immortal production, and into blink or charge for the apparent threat of tanks on the map. I can vote for this guy. I have completely adopted his play and have seen some great improvement. I'm still struggling if the game drags on the late but the build at least gives me a chance. I have scrapped 1 rax no gas expand ages ago. Mid-Masters here. It's how I planned to practice TvP into mid-late game. Early third, double ebay after third is up, and a slew of raxes. I need practice microing against toss, so I do it like in those replays. Want to not expo? Forget the 3rd, and get a 4th rax with a reactor and an ebay at ~8:30 to get +1. I don't enjoy that, as I feel the push is only able to stun, not kill. If it kills, they aren't used to defending infantry/tank pushes, and the abusive tank range. So, in short, if you don't want to go mid-late game, you can easily cut the expo, and get an earlier 4th and even 5th rax and put all your eggs in one basket.
Late game is fine, as long as sufficient damage has been dealt with the tank push. The way I see it, the moment that 3-4 tank push commences, you got to be completely unrelentless with your attacks, as you will most likely trade a massive portion of their gateway units in that push and so they will not be attacking anytime soon and will probably be scrambling for expansions and replenishing the losses.
How many times have I caught Protosses who tried to get a quick third only to get my tanks knocking on their door...
I've slightly modified the build however to squeeze in a +1 attack, timed just before the attack, to help against guardian shield and potential +1 armor on the zealot.
It's unconventional and I'm freaking loving it.
1 problem though. It's weak against surprise void ray. And I do say surprise because often I cant be sure if its void ray or some dt bullshit. Scouted voidray is totally fine however.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-243824.jpg)
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