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On December 10 2011 20:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 19:17 KenDM wrote:
Are there any new insights in defending against a Protoss 1 base all in? (4Gate, 3GateRobo) Why would you need new insights to defend 4G? With any decent build order, scouting and bunkers should do. As for 3GR, do you mean Immortal busts?
Yeah, is there a way to be ultra aggressive against P? Like a good banshee rush against against T always works wonders and sometimes a nice Siege push at 3 tanks against Z. Against a P all I can do is defend his first push, having a perfect macro and find that forward Pylon they use. It's a really punishing match up for me if something goes wrong.
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On December 12 2011 01:45 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 20:29 TheDwf wrote:On December 10 2011 19:17 KenDM wrote:
Are there any new insights in defending against a Protoss 1 base all in? (4Gate, 3GateRobo) Why would you need new insights to defend 4G? With any decent build order, scouting and bunkers should do. As for 3GR, do you mean Immortal busts? Yeah, is there a way to be ultra aggressive against P? Like a good banshee rush against against T always works wonders and sometimes a nice Siege push at 3 tanks against Z. Against a P all I can do is defend his first push, having a perfect macro and find that forward Pylon they use. It's a really punishing match up for me if something goes wrong.
4 gates are stoppable with any opening. You must just scout it, know you saw it, and ninja scout the expo to be 100% safe. 2 bunkers does the trick, and you just tech to cloakshees or medics and win. When you scv scout, itll be one gas, and a lot of chrono. Escape before stalker comes out, and go poke expo to see if he dropped it or not. If not, 4 gate inc.
What's hard is 1 gate FE into 3 gate pressure and they hit right after FE lands with 5 stalker 1 zeal. Oh fuck that gets me.
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High diamond here. Really struggling against any kind of macro game against P. I don't remember the last game I won where it wasn't after I held off an all-in. Here's 2 examples of my games if anyone would be kind enough to have a look through, any advice would be appreciated. Both are on tal-darim altar.
http://www.sc2replays.eu/s/3hh*7p
http://www.sc2replays.eu/s/16derw
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On December 12 2011 01:45 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 20:29 TheDwf wrote:On December 10 2011 19:17 KenDM wrote:
Are there any new insights in defending against a Protoss 1 base all in? (4Gate, 3GateRobo) Why would you need new insights to defend 4G? With any decent build order, scouting and bunkers should do. As for 3GR, do you mean Immortal busts? Yeah, is there a way to be ultra aggressive against P? Like a good banshee rush against against T always works wonders and sometimes a nice Siege push at 3 tanks against Z. Against a P all I can do is defend his first push, having a perfect macro and find that forward Pylon they use. It's a really punishing match up for me if something goes wrong.
Speaking as a bad Protoss, I've found that if I go 3gate robo and push when my second chrono-d immortal pops out, the terran will generally die. However. If they go hyper aggro early (like, move out on thier third or fifth marine while going 3rax and just keep poking my front and whittling me down and making me stay on defensive) my push just doesn't happen, and then you get to expand and I get to one base tech to _______ to get you away from my front door.
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Lately i've been playing against mid silver / upper bronze level zergs in 1v1 and I just can't seem to get the edge... If I go for a mobile force I get baneling busted. If I rush siege tanks I get baneling busted 3, 4 times in a row when I have nothing left to harass with or expand. I either stay in one base, or early expand and wall off my front where I can, only to get baneling busted followed by a mutalisk rampage through my main (when i'm down on marines).
Actually, many forms of baneling busts can be held by just having a bunker up. Also, it should be impossible for someone to baneling bust you and win by making mutalisks: The unit you should have the most at the time is marines, and the time interval between the two is like more than 5 minutes,
How can I pressure him? Why are zergs able to maintain such a high amount of pressure, whilst also free expanding? I can literally do nothing about being sat in my base, but I know that "letting" a zerg macro for even a minute is a bad, bad thing. Should I build more and go for a one base push? Do I try and sneak expand to a far corner and try to beat his economy? Viking harass suck when mutalisks show up, helion with blue flame drops get me somewhere, but the 3 times i've tried this it's ended up with the zerg going "well, YUP IM ALL IN", which is good as it means he's feeling that pressure, but it's bad because banelings roll through fucking everything and rolling banelings outrun my stimmed marines....
It looks more to me that you need a general concept of TvZ. Read the Recommended Strategy thread for a general game plan, and then start from there. I simply can't believe you are losing to so many baneling all-ins (especially in bronze/silver) unless you have major macro mistakes. Are you making marines the whole time? Do you know any build orders/ game plans? Post a few replays, this is the only clear way other terran players can help you.
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4 gates are stoppable with any opening. You must just scout it, know you saw it, and ninja scout the expo to be 100% safe. 2 bunkers does the trick, and you just tech to cloakshees or medics and win. When you scv scout, itll be one gas, and a lot of chrono. Escape before stalker comes out, and go poke expo to see if he dropped it or not. If not, 4 gate inc.
Tech to medivacs, they are less risky and it is the counter to gateway production. Bio with stim and medis are GOOD.
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When do you put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? I feel like I never have the gas. I also--compulsively perhaps?-- don't make them until energy upgrade finishes. I mostly face colossus tech and then I either don't feel like I really need them, or that I can't really spare the gas between getting vikings/medivacs/upgrades and marauders. ...But then if the tech switch comes it's like an autoloss.
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On December 12 2011 07:42 Expez wrote:
When do you put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? I feel like I never have the gas. I also--compulsively perhaps?-- don't make them until energy upgrade finishes. I mostly face colossus tech and then I either don't feel like I really need them, or that I can't really spare the gas between getting vikings/medivacs/upgrades and marauders. ...But then if the tech switch comes it's like an autoloss.
Usually around the time I take my third. Think of what you can afford in terms of how many geysers you're mining from.
2 geysers: Marauder production + double Medivac production
3 geysers: Above + 1 ebay upgrading
4 geysers: Above + 2nd ebay upgrading OR ghost production
As you can see, once you hit that 5th and 6th gas, you can afford reactor Starport production, double Ebay upgrades and Ghost production.
As for scouting, you simply have to scan a lot if you can't drop to get an idea of what he's doing. Also don't forget to fly your Factory into his base once you have a reactored starport.
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Thanks for the responses guys, I recently switched to standard marine tank medivac tvz and have been punishing fast mutas pretty hard with an early tank marine push.
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On December 12 2011 07:42 Expez wrote:
When do you put down the ghost academy and start making ghosts? I feel like I never have the gas. I also--compulsively perhaps?-- don't make them until energy upgrade finishes.
The optimal way is to start Ghost production once your Moebius Reactor is halfway (since Ghost production time = 40 sec and Moebius Reactor = 80 sec). Usually, you can start Ghost production when you're on 6 geysers, with the two following exceptions : a) if your opponent heads straight to HT (or zealots/Archons) while still being on two bases, and b) if you plan to go for a two-bases Ghost push, of course.
On December 12 2011 10:52 Andreas wrote:
Usually around the time I take my third. Think of what you can afford in terms of how many geysers you're mining from.
2 geysers: Marauder production + double Medivac production
Actually, constant Medivac production out of a Reactor Starport requires at least 3 gas ((60/42)*200 = 285 gas/minut, which is more than one base can provide).
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Thanks for your help TheDwf and Andreas. Gotta love this thread!
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This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,,
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,,
what kind of all in?
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On December 12 2011 20:49 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, what kind of all in?
heres a random good one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290571
3 rax is solid too.
Reactor the first and 3rd rax. Tech the second. Push with stim and scvs. (or a million other variations)
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Fellow Terrans, two simple but yet painful questions.
1) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with Roach/BL.
When I sense BL coming, I usually go more Thor-heavy, skipping tanks as they'll do nothing but damage my own units. I'll have a half-dozen unsieged tanks when I engage. But then, billion Roaches and *poof* no army. The dozen of BLs helps too. And since it's mech there is no magic trick to get a whole army again, I lose the second I lose an engagement.
2) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with tech switches.
So I see Speedlings right. All good. The Banes. Still good. Mutas! Perfect, I produce the necessary units.
But then, for just a few minerals and a bit of gas, he goes from 160 food Mutaling to 160 food Roaches. My army is suddenly irrelevant.
So, how do you prevent this?
High diamond by the way.
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I posted a while back about my difficulties in the TvZ matchup and, after some improvement, i'm facing more problems.
I played two games against a mid/high master player yesterday, (mid Master T myself) and i'd appreciate it if people would look over the games and offer some insight as to what I can improve. Please note i'm not looking for things like 'oh there was a supply block at time t1' UNLESS it was crucial in me losing the game. Large glaring flaws in my overall gameplay are what i'm looking for.
http://drop.sc/73792
+ Show Spoiler +This one I lost. I played really sloppy in general but I think it highlights a common problem in my play. I'm often forced into an extremely defensive position and remain in that position for the entire game. Obviously you can point out various sloppy plays including supply blocks and having tanks sniped....but are these the only reason I lost? Are there any major flaws in my play?
http://drop.sc/73795
+ Show Spoiler +Again, this game is pretty sloppy but I did manage to scrape a win. I didn't expect to win this game at all because I never felt like I was in a decent position, (except until I managed to siege up in the middle of the map). I had a fairly difficult time with mutalisks, (as I do in general when they reach a high count) and my engagements didn't seem to go that well. So similar question to before, what did I do wrong and what can I do to improve?
Thanks for any help.
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On December 13 2011 00:33 Kukaracha wrote:
Fellow Terrans, two simple but yet painful questions.
1) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with Roach/BL.
When I sense BL coming, I usually go more Thor-heavy, skipping tanks as they'll do nothing but damage my own units. I'll have a half-dozen unsieged tanks when I engage. But then, billion Roaches and *poof* no army. The dozen of BLs helps too. And since it's mech there is no magic trick to get a whole army again, I lose the second I lose an engagement.
2) How. In. Hell. Do I deal with tech switches.
So I see Speedlings right. All good. The Banes. Still good. Mutas! Perfect, I produce the necessary units.
But then, for just a few minerals and a bit of gas, he goes from 160 food Mutaling to 160 food Roaches. My army is suddenly irrelevant.
So, how do you prevent this?
High diamond by the way.
You need vikings to counter BLs. Thors to practically nothing against them and will never trade cost-effectively. Get a starport with a reactor (in most cases you should have one already for medivacs) and pump out vikings when you scout the greater spire.
If he can make a tech switch to roaches, you can make a tech switch to more bio-heavy, specifically marauders. Be active in scouting and try to stay one step ahead of your opponent.
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On December 13 2011 01:54 zimo.j wrote:
You need vikings to counter BLs. Thors to practically nothing against them and will never trade cost-effectively.
Thors with Hellion support (to deal with Broodlings) actually win against Broodlords in equal numbers, especially with the usual upgrade advantage and the fact Broodlords tend to clump.
Vikings are a common answer, but they can be countered by Corruptors + Infestors. Ideally, I think you'd want Ghosts, because they can deal with Broodlords, Infestors and Queens (if your opponent brings them to heal Broodlords). It also depends on the situation; Vikings are usually the 'emergency solution' since Ghosts need time to accumulate energy.
On December 13 2011 01:54 zimo.j wrote:
If he can make a tech switch to roaches, you can make a tech switch to more bio-heavy, specifically marauders. Be active in scouting and try to stay one step ahead of your opponent.
He's talking about mech. Upon scouting mass roaches, you don't switch to Marauders when you play mech, you get Tanks.
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On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,,
I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese.
What are you looking for.
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On December 13 2011 05:58 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 20:45 RevTiberius wrote:
This is a great thread but there is so much info here that it's hard to find specific issues. Are there any more specific threads? In particular how to all in in TvP? I can't really find it here on TL but I'm sure there's a wealth of information on this site. I just dont know where to look I guess,,, I have a laundry list of TvP all ins from mech all ins with thors, tanks, hellions, banshees, viking double medic drop, all infantry rush, 1 rax fe into 5 rax pressure, 2 rax proxy, 1-1-1, 2 port cloakshee into banshee bio raven push, marine scv allin, 3 rax stim all in, reaper cheese. What are you looking for.
If I may ask aswell.. I just lost to a terrible protoss player, I had double the apm and 60% of his average unspent resources lost the engagement against zealot archon and then lost the game I am so tired of playing bio tvp when there's such strong allins available. It's time for them to outplay me and lose instead of the other way around.
What would be the easiest allin which gives the best win ratio? I am thinking of 111 but is that the best on every map?
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