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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Is this an accurate and good 3 rax build?
10 – Supply
12 – Rax
13 – Refinery
15 – Orbital
15 – Marine
16 – Supply
16 – Tech Lab
18 – Marauder (repeat)
21 – Stim
21 – Rax
24 – Supply
27 – Rax
28 – Supply
28 – Reactor
32 – Supply
35 – Tech Lab
35 – Double Marine (repeat)
38 – Supply
38 – Shells
38 – Marauder (repeat)
46 – Supply
Thank you 
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On December 09 2011 06:29 Norris_is_GODLY wrote:Hey guys, recently been having trouble with this new zerg style of ling festor ultra. Just need an idea of the composition i need vs this. Atm im going the standard rine seige tank with ghosts mixed in, but i just keep getting rolled. My macro etc is fine, im just losing every engagement and i have a feeling it's because my unit comp is trash. Maybe my micro needs some work, particularly my ghost control but anyways any feedback on unit comp would be much appreciated
Mix in some Marauders too, they're really good against Ultralisks, and try to fight in tight areas; you can use Barracks or PFs to minimize space near your bases. Two days ago, I played a game (EU mid/high-Master level) against this kind of of Zerg style, here is the replay if you want to see things in action. Not the best execution, but hopefully it'll help.
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On December 09 2011 06:29 Norris_is_GODLY wrote:Hey guys, recently been having trouble with this new zerg style of ling festor ultra. Just need an idea of the composition i need vs this. Atm im going the standard rine seige tank with ghosts mixed in, but i just keep getting rolled. My macro etc is fine, im just losing every engagement and i have a feeling it's because my unit comp is trash. Maybe my micro needs some work, particularly my ghost control but anyways any feedback on unit comp would be much appreciated
I get marauders vs infestor ling. I start mixing them in, as they can box and bounce off and snipe infestors VERY well. He has to target the marauders moving to snipe or they will die in a few volleys, too fast.
Also, I find slow pushes taking an aggressive stance (I know weird?) with bunkers, depots, etc pushing with tanks and marines and bunkers can do a good amount of pressure damage on a zerg and force them into ultra or brood.
Also you will hear drops to keep him spread around, but if you can't handle the split attacks I wouldn't even attempt.
Against infestor ling ultra I basically just do marine marauder with light tank count, maybe 5-7? Lots of spread arc armies. If they force you into marauders, abuse that fact that 3/3 marauders DOMINATE ultras, and buildings. Start dropping mara marine groups like 4 maras 8 marines and snipe shit to keep him busy. 4 mara 8 marines with 2 medics behind a mineral line, or a good position to let lings only hit marauders means you are going to kill a SHIT ton of lings with that mara wall.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 08 2011 06:05 Yohsc2 wrote:
Hey guys, recently i have trouble on TVZ. I feel i cant win with the marines/tank compo. Mech is okay but i would like to improve myself with playing marines. But I lose all my games.
Basically, I go 1 rax reactor expand and then pump marines and tank for a push at 9/10 minutes while i take B3. But evreytime it fails and the game is over. Because :
-tanks hit spines or evolution chamber and do not damage at all. It allows for the zerg to temporize as well and he can crush me with mass lings.
-I dont know where i have to set up my rally point.
-At this time, most of zerg have a macro hatch and i cant deal with their massive pop.
-If i try to back off, he catch me unsiege and i lose all my army for nothing.
-my micro sucks.
I know the purpose of this push is not really to do damage but forcing zerg to make units, but if i lose all my army (which is everytime the case), he can just counter me with his units and i dont have enough stuff at home to deal with. And then, he can do whatever he wants.
But if i can defend, i dont know what to do. If i try to push, i just get crushed by mass lings/blings even with good upgrades and if i camp too long....i get crushed as well.
Basically, what am i suppose to do after the 10 minutes push? zerg can defend easily my drops with mutas or just speedlings. is my build order or timing push bad?
You effectively hold onto map control for the first 9 minutes of the game with your initial 4 hellions.
your quick natural lets you stay even on economy.
You show up outside his base at about 9:20 with stim and siege, 2 tanks, 11 marines, 4 hellions. A solid force. Your third base is in progress.
At 9:28, you let him get into melee with you without firing any shots. this is bad. he turns around, though, and you get the opportunity to siege up.
your third tank arrives and you wait a lot to siege it up. Try to be as sieged up as possible
by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber.
as a result, you lose most of your army.
when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him.
Your maynard is about 3 minuets late
Let's tlak about army size at the 16:00 battle. Just as he lurches forward, here's what he's got: 103 zerglings, 9 infestors. You're fighting him with 45 marines, 2 tanks, and 2 medivacs. In terms of pure value, he has a bigger army b y a fairly large amount of vespene.
But more importantly is how he's spent that vespene. Let's talk about how marine/tank/medivac TvZ midgame works...
Marines are good. Really good. They beat every zerg unit, cost for cost, except for a couple of very specific units: The infestor and the baneling. If it weren't for infestors and banes, you'd make pure marines and you'd win every game.
Zerg players know this, so once marines get to high numbers, they employ a infestors or banelings to beat them. In your case, your adversary used infestors.
This is where the "tank" part of marine/tank comes in. Tanks are good against the two units that counter marines, banelings and infestors. They 1-shot clumps of banelings and outrange fungal growth when in sige mode. By combining these two units you can beat any zerg mid-game composition.
So, 2 tanks were not gonna stop his 9 infestors from crapping on your marines. You needed more tanks. Another thing worht noting is that against double evo infestor play, the zerg is going for a fast 2/2 and possible a fast 3/3. Your engi bay is idle, and during that fight you're 1/0 against 2/2-- and it shows. You need to fight zerg in the upgrade battle, since both rines and lings shoot a lot of small attacks, upgrades are very critical.
upgrades, tank production and when to stop a push are the things to focus on.
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On December 09 2011 19:13 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 06:05 Yohsc2 wrote:
Hey guys, recently i have trouble on TVZ. I feel i cant win with the marines/tank compo. Mech is okay but i would like to improve myself with playing marines. But I lose all my games.
Basically, I go 1 rax reactor expand and then pump marines and tank for a push at 9/10 minutes while i take B3. But evreytime it fails and the game is over. Because :
-tanks hit spines or evolution chamber and do not damage at all. It allows for the zerg to temporize as well and he can crush me with mass lings.
-I dont know where i have to set up my rally point.
-At this time, most of zerg have a macro hatch and i cant deal with their massive pop.
-If i try to back off, he catch me unsiege and i lose all my army for nothing.
-my micro sucks.
I know the purpose of this push is not really to do damage but forcing zerg to make units, but if i lose all my army (which is everytime the case), he can just counter me with his units and i dont have enough stuff at home to deal with. And then, he can do whatever he wants.
But if i can defend, i dont know what to do. If i try to push, i just get crushed by mass lings/blings even with good upgrades and if i camp too long....i get crushed as well.
Basically, what am i suppose to do after the 10 minutes push? zerg can defend easily my drops with mutas or just speedlings. is my build order or timing push bad?
You effectively hold onto map control for the first 9 minutes of the game with your initial 4 hellions. your quick natural lets you stay even on economy. You show up outside his base at about 9:20 with stim and siege, 2 tanks, 11 marines, 4 hellions. A solid force. Your third base is in progress. At 9:28, you let him get into melee with you without firing any shots. this is bad. he turns around, though, and you get the opportunity to siege up. your third tank arrives and you wait a lot to siege it up. Try to be as sieged up as possible by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber. as a result, you lose most of your army. when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him. Your maynard is about 3 minuets late Let's tlak about army size at the 16:00 battle. Just as he lurches forward, here's what he's got: 103 zerglings, 9 infestors. You're fighting him with 45 marines, 2 tanks, and 2 medivacs. In terms of pure value, he has a bigger army b y a fairly large amount of vespene. But more importantly is how he's spent that vespene. Let's talk about how marine/tank/medivac TvZ midgame works... Marines are good. Really good. They beat every zerg unit, cost for cost, except for a couple of very specific units: The infestor and the baneling. If it weren't for infestors and banes, you'd make pure marines and you'd win every game. Zerg players know this, so once marines get to high numbers, they employ a infestors or banelings to beat them. In your case, your adversary used infestors. This is where the "tank" part of marine/tank comes in. Tanks are good against the two units that counter marines, banelings and infestors. They 1-shot clumps of banelings and outrange fungal growth when in sige mode. By combining these two units you can beat any zerg mid-game composition. So, 2 tanks were not gonna stop his 9 infestors from crapping on your marines. You needed more tanks. Another thing worht noting is that against double evo infestor play, the zerg is going for a fast 2/2 and possible a fast 3/3. Your engi bay is idle, and during that fight you're 1/0 against 2/2-- and it shows. You need to fight zerg in the upgrade battle, since both rines and lings shoot a lot of small attacks, upgrades are very critical. upgrades, tank production and when to stop a push are the things to focus on.
Don't forget Vehicle weapons too. Tanks 1 shot banelings until they start getting armor. From experience, its so much better when my vehicle weapons upgrades are equal to or greater than zergs carapace upgrade.
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On December 09 2011 19:34 Joedaddy wrote:
Don't forget Vehicle weapons too. Tanks 1 shot banelings until they start getting armor.
You meant Zerglings, I guess?
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 09 2011 19:34 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 19:13 Blazinghand wrote:On December 08 2011 06:05 Yohsc2 wrote:
Hey guys, recently i have trouble on TVZ. I feel i cant win with the marines/tank compo. Mech is okay but i would like to improve myself with playing marines. But I lose all my games.
Basically, I go 1 rax reactor expand and then pump marines and tank for a push at 9/10 minutes while i take B3. But evreytime it fails and the game is over. Because :
-tanks hit spines or evolution chamber and do not damage at all. It allows for the zerg to temporize as well and he can crush me with mass lings.
-I dont know where i have to set up my rally point.
-At this time, most of zerg have a macro hatch and i cant deal with their massive pop.
-If i try to back off, he catch me unsiege and i lose all my army for nothing.
-my micro sucks.
I know the purpose of this push is not really to do damage but forcing zerg to make units, but if i lose all my army (which is everytime the case), he can just counter me with his units and i dont have enough stuff at home to deal with. And then, he can do whatever he wants.
But if i can defend, i dont know what to do. If i try to push, i just get crushed by mass lings/blings even with good upgrades and if i camp too long....i get crushed as well.
Basically, what am i suppose to do after the 10 minutes push? zerg can defend easily my drops with mutas or just speedlings. is my build order or timing push bad?
You effectively hold onto map control for the first 9 minutes of the game with your initial 4 hellions. your quick natural lets you stay even on economy. You show up outside his base at about 9:20 with stim and siege, 2 tanks, 11 marines, 4 hellions. A solid force. Your third base is in progress. At 9:28, you let him get into melee with you without firing any shots. this is bad. he turns around, though, and you get the opportunity to siege up. your third tank arrives and you wait a lot to siege it up. Try to be as sieged up as possible by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber. as a result, you lose most of your army. when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him. Your maynard is about 3 minuets late Let's tlak about army size at the 16:00 battle. Just as he lurches forward, here's what he's got: 103 zerglings, 9 infestors. You're fighting him with 45 marines, 2 tanks, and 2 medivacs. In terms of pure value, he has a bigger army b y a fairly large amount of vespene. But more importantly is how he's spent that vespene. Let's talk about how marine/tank/medivac TvZ midgame works... Marines are good. Really good. They beat every zerg unit, cost for cost, except for a couple of very specific units: The infestor and the baneling. If it weren't for infestors and banes, you'd make pure marines and you'd win every game. Zerg players know this, so once marines get to high numbers, they employ a infestors or banelings to beat them. In your case, your adversary used infestors. This is where the "tank" part of marine/tank comes in. Tanks are good against the two units that counter marines, banelings and infestors. They 1-shot clumps of banelings and outrange fungal growth when in sige mode. By combining these two units you can beat any zerg mid-game composition. So, 2 tanks were not gonna stop his 9 infestors from crapping on your marines. You needed more tanks. Another thing worht noting is that against double evo infestor play, the zerg is going for a fast 2/2 and possible a fast 3/3. Your engi bay is idle, and during that fight you're 1/0 against 2/2-- and it shows. You need to fight zerg in the upgrade battle, since both rines and lings shoot a lot of small attacks, upgrades are very critical. upgrades, tank production and when to stop a push are the things to focus on. Don't forget Vehicle weapons too. Tanks 1 shot banelings until they start getting armor. From experience, its so much better when my vehicle weapons upgrades are equal to or greater than zergs carapace upgrade.
+0 tanks always 1-shot banelings in siege mode
+0 tanks 1-shot zerglings that have no carapace upgrades
+1 tanks 1-shot zerglings regardless of carapace upgrades
It's hard to tell from the replay, but he got a quick +1 vehicle weapons-- it just wasn't terribly useful due to low tank count. also, getting an armory but being trapped on +1/+0 infantry is rough towne against 2/2 lings.
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On December 09 2011 20:10 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 19:34 Joedaddy wrote:On December 09 2011 19:13 Blazinghand wrote:On December 08 2011 06:05 Yohsc2 wrote:
Hey guys, recently i have trouble on TVZ. I feel i cant win with the marines/tank compo. Mech is okay but i would like to improve myself with playing marines. But I lose all my games.
Basically, I go 1 rax reactor expand and then pump marines and tank for a push at 9/10 minutes while i take B3. But evreytime it fails and the game is over. Because :
-tanks hit spines or evolution chamber and do not damage at all. It allows for the zerg to temporize as well and he can crush me with mass lings.
-I dont know where i have to set up my rally point.
-At this time, most of zerg have a macro hatch and i cant deal with their massive pop.
-If i try to back off, he catch me unsiege and i lose all my army for nothing.
-my micro sucks.
I know the purpose of this push is not really to do damage but forcing zerg to make units, but if i lose all my army (which is everytime the case), he can just counter me with his units and i dont have enough stuff at home to deal with. And then, he can do whatever he wants.
But if i can defend, i dont know what to do. If i try to push, i just get crushed by mass lings/blings even with good upgrades and if i camp too long....i get crushed as well.
Basically, what am i suppose to do after the 10 minutes push? zerg can defend easily my drops with mutas or just speedlings. is my build order or timing push bad?
You effectively hold onto map control for the first 9 minutes of the game with your initial 4 hellions. your quick natural lets you stay even on economy. You show up outside his base at about 9:20 with stim and siege, 2 tanks, 11 marines, 4 hellions. A solid force. Your third base is in progress. At 9:28, you let him get into melee with you without firing any shots. this is bad. he turns around, though, and you get the opportunity to siege up. your third tank arrives and you wait a lot to siege it up. Try to be as sieged up as possible by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber. as a result, you lose most of your army. when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him. Your maynard is about 3 minuets late Let's tlak about army size at the 16:00 battle. Just as he lurches forward, here's what he's got: 103 zerglings, 9 infestors. You're fighting him with 45 marines, 2 tanks, and 2 medivacs. In terms of pure value, he has a bigger army b y a fairly large amount of vespene. But more importantly is how he's spent that vespene. Let's talk about how marine/tank/medivac TvZ midgame works... Marines are good. Really good. They beat every zerg unit, cost for cost, except for a couple of very specific units: The infestor and the baneling. If it weren't for infestors and banes, you'd make pure marines and you'd win every game. Zerg players know this, so once marines get to high numbers, they employ a infestors or banelings to beat them. In your case, your adversary used infestors. This is where the "tank" part of marine/tank comes in. Tanks are good against the two units that counter marines, banelings and infestors. They 1-shot clumps of banelings and outrange fungal growth when in sige mode. By combining these two units you can beat any zerg mid-game composition. So, 2 tanks were not gonna stop his 9 infestors from crapping on your marines. You needed more tanks. Another thing worht noting is that against double evo infestor play, the zerg is going for a fast 2/2 and possible a fast 3/3. Your engi bay is idle, and during that fight you're 1/0 against 2/2-- and it shows. You need to fight zerg in the upgrade battle, since both rines and lings shoot a lot of small attacks, upgrades are very critical. upgrades, tank production and when to stop a push are the things to focus on. Don't forget Vehicle weapons too. Tanks 1 shot banelings until they start getting armor. From experience, its so much better when my vehicle weapons upgrades are equal to or greater than zergs carapace upgrade. +0 tanks always 1-shot banelings in siege mode +0 tanks 1-shot zerglings that have no carapace upgrades +1 tanks 1-shot zerglings regardless of carapace upgrades It's hard to tell from the replay, but he got a quick +1 vehicle weapons-- it just wasn't terribly useful due to low tank count. also, getting an armory but being trapped on +1/+0 infantry is rough towne against 2/2 lings.
No shit? I'm glad I spoke up so someone could correct me. So when you're playing marine/tank vs a ling/bling(infestor) is there really any reason to go past +1 vehicle weapons?
I've always tried to get +3 on my tanks (because if +1 is good, +3 has to be better lol) and used zerg's carapace as a gauge on where my armory ups needed to be. Obviously I was wrong.
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Yo, thanks for your response, its quite useful.
by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber.
as a result, you lose most of your army.
when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him.
I know i let him temporize and get larvae injection, but what should i do if there are a spines-wall off? If i move my tanks too fast or too close of his natural, I risk losing my army. And as i said, if i try to retreat, he catchs me unsiege..
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I got inspired by last SOTG to try to play Terran mech against Toss. But terran is my offrace and I need help.
Are there any good guides I can read (except liquipedia)?
I tried to harass with BFH but toss built cannons behind minerals in all bases so I wasn't really effective. What can mech terran do to deny expansions on big maps?
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On December 09 2011 21:13 -Archangel- wrote:
What can mech terran do to deny expansions on big maps?
Basically nothing. All you can do is try to kill probes with Hellions, but bear in mind that mech is not really viable anyway against Protoss. You can also try nukes since you will likely need Ghosts.
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On December 09 2011 21:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 21:13 -Archangel- wrote:
What can mech terran do to deny expansions on big maps? Basically nothing. All you can do is try to kill probes with Hellions, but bear in mind that mech is not really viable anyway against Protoss. You can also try nukes since you will likely need Ghosts.
What about Thor+Medivac to attack far bases?
And I know it is not viable but that is why I want to do it
But I need to find what people found to work and then I would experiment on my own to try to find more things. I don't want to waste time on trivial things.
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I'm trying to refine a build to submit to Day9 as he asked on SotG last week, of mech vs. Protoss.
Let me start by saying I was a huge naysayer, and I'm still not totally convinced, but I'm 6-0 so far using a pretty unrefined build order. This is probably a result of high diamond players not having enough game sense yet to react to totally novel strategies.
The build is a sort of version of reactor hellion expand against toss. The early build order I've been using is this (6 games isn't refined enough to get this much past 30 food)
10 depot
12 rax
14 gas
15 OC
16 reactor, take 1 off of gas
16 depot
17 2 marines, then 2 more marines so you have 5
20 CC, put 1 back on gas. Even though you will need gas, you still want to make OC before floating down on maps where it's unsafe to build at the natural. If you're going to be gas starved, send SCV's down in advance to make the refineries.
23 depot
25 factory
26 gas
If you detect non-4 gate all in here, 2 bunkers on low ground and start tank production, and play it sort of like a siege expand in bw. If he's expo'd, go starport at 100% factory. Swap reactor onto factory, build tech lab on rax, build 2nd factory.
38 medivac
41 factory
When medivac completes, pull back hellions from showing themselves at front and drop into back of main. Look for tech path and go for the throat on worker kills. YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE HELLIONS, OR HE CAN JUST 6 GATE AND YOU WILL LOSE. You need to keep him pinned back expecting another drop. If he hasn't gone robo tech, you can transition to cloaked banshees easily here and try to see if you can just decimate his economy. Meanwhile, start tank production at home.
You will eventually end up with 3 factory, 2 tech lab and 1 reactor, and a starport, which you will add a reactor to as soon as you see a robo bay. In fact, if you can get up to 3 base, just put one on anyway. After this, you use annoying hellion aggression and drops to get your tanks into position. If you see a stargate transition, put reactor back on the rax and pump marines.
I think most of my success is because protoss love herpaderping with their stalkers so much, and that's basically the worst thing you can do in this build. I think zealot/phoenix is the right transition with HT/archon as the game progresses, but you can deter tech switches by doing damage on your drop so that the toss fears that he will just die.
The other advantage of this build is that it looks like a 1-1-1, especially if you can conceal the expo, and most protoss will respond with this stupid blink stalker nonsense against it, which is the worst thing possible. They will have maximum units at their front to fight the all in, when in reality they should be either pressuring or covering for drops.
I'd love to have someone else try out this build and see what results they get, preferably at the master level where responses will probably be more appropriate (I did beat one masters player on ladder, but he was quite low in masters).
EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't have a great replay because these games have basically just been free wins. I'll post one as soon as I play a good game, regardless of win or loss
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i'm not a mech player at all but i made one mech like strategy that worked even against high master/grandmaster protoss player because tey don't know how to counter it (there is no hard counter for this, maybe there isn't even a soft counter). The idea is Thor + Ghost turtle style with fast defense upgrades. There is no build but overall you should get 3 bases up and running and your army should have at least 15 thors and 6 ghosts. You can counter everything the toss has (for colossus build additional vikings and get the strike cannon). You can hold rushes with bunkers und a fast thor and even colossus timing pushes can be totally destroyed with the strike cannon upgrade. A carrier army can be devastating and you should build at least 2 or 3 reactored starports in the lategame to be prepared. But the core army with thors and the supoorting ghosts (EMP!!) is extremely strong against everything toss has. The weaknes could be an excessive blink stalker gameplay but this is extremely hard to pull off (you see the role changing? toss has to be aggressive and terran can build a deathball).
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 09 2011 20:41 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 20:10 Blazinghand wrote:On December 09 2011 19:34 Joedaddy wrote:On December 09 2011 19:13 Blazinghand wrote:On December 08 2011 06:05 Yohsc2 wrote:
Hey guys, recently i have trouble on TVZ. I feel i cant win with the marines/tank compo. Mech is okay but i would like to improve myself with playing marines. But I lose all my games.
Basically, I go 1 rax reactor expand and then pump marines and tank for a push at 9/10 minutes while i take B3. But evreytime it fails and the game is over. Because :
-tanks hit spines or evolution chamber and do not damage at all. It allows for the zerg to temporize as well and he can crush me with mass lings.
-I dont know where i have to set up my rally point.
-At this time, most of zerg have a macro hatch and i cant deal with their massive pop.
-If i try to back off, he catch me unsiege and i lose all my army for nothing.
-my micro sucks.
I know the purpose of this push is not really to do damage but forcing zerg to make units, but if i lose all my army (which is everytime the case), he can just counter me with his units and i dont have enough stuff at home to deal with. And then, he can do whatever he wants.
But if i can defend, i dont know what to do. If i try to push, i just get crushed by mass lings/blings even with good upgrades and if i camp too long....i get crushed as well.
Basically, what am i suppose to do after the 10 minutes push? zerg can defend easily my drops with mutas or just speedlings. is my build order or timing push bad?
You effectively hold onto map control for the first 9 minutes of the game with your initial 4 hellions. your quick natural lets you stay even on economy. You show up outside his base at about 9:20 with stim and siege, 2 tanks, 11 marines, 4 hellions. A solid force. Your third base is in progress. At 9:28, you let him get into melee with you without firing any shots. this is bad. he turns around, though, and you get the opportunity to siege up. your third tank arrives and you wait a lot to siege it up. Try to be as sieged up as possible by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber. as a result, you lose most of your army. when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him. Your maynard is about 3 minuets late Let's tlak about army size at the 16:00 battle. Just as he lurches forward, here's what he's got: 103 zerglings, 9 infestors. You're fighting him with 45 marines, 2 tanks, and 2 medivacs. In terms of pure value, he has a bigger army b y a fairly large amount of vespene. But more importantly is how he's spent that vespene. Let's talk about how marine/tank/medivac TvZ midgame works... Marines are good. Really good. They beat every zerg unit, cost for cost, except for a couple of very specific units: The infestor and the baneling. If it weren't for infestors and banes, you'd make pure marines and you'd win every game. Zerg players know this, so once marines get to high numbers, they employ a infestors or banelings to beat them. In your case, your adversary used infestors. This is where the "tank" part of marine/tank comes in. Tanks are good against the two units that counter marines, banelings and infestors. They 1-shot clumps of banelings and outrange fungal growth when in sige mode. By combining these two units you can beat any zerg mid-game composition. So, 2 tanks were not gonna stop his 9 infestors from crapping on your marines. You needed more tanks. Another thing worht noting is that against double evo infestor play, the zerg is going for a fast 2/2 and possible a fast 3/3. Your engi bay is idle, and during that fight you're 1/0 against 2/2-- and it shows. You need to fight zerg in the upgrade battle, since both rines and lings shoot a lot of small attacks, upgrades are very critical. upgrades, tank production and when to stop a push are the things to focus on. Don't forget Vehicle weapons too. Tanks 1 shot banelings until they start getting armor. From experience, its so much better when my vehicle weapons upgrades are equal to or greater than zergs carapace upgrade. +0 tanks always 1-shot banelings in siege mode +0 tanks 1-shot zerglings that have no carapace upgrades +1 tanks 1-shot zerglings regardless of carapace upgrades It's hard to tell from the replay, but he got a quick +1 vehicle weapons-- it just wasn't terribly useful due to low tank count. also, getting an armory but being trapped on +1/+0 infantry is rough towne against 2/2 lings. No shit? I'm glad I spoke up so someone could correct me. So when you're playing marine/tank vs a ling/bling(infestor) is there really any reason to go past +1 vehicle weapons? I've always tried to get +3 on my tanks (because if +1 is good, +3 has to be better lol) and used zerg's carapace as a gauge on where my armory ups needed to be. Obviously I was wrong.
Usually I try to double upgrade my marines and be slightly ahead on upgrades, and I only get +1 vehicle weapons. You'll want more vehicle weapon upgrades if you find yourself making thors, though-- +2 thors 2-shot mutalisks instead of 3-shotting them.
On December 09 2011 21:07 Yohsc2 wrote:Yo, thanks for your response, its quite useful. Show nested quote +by 11:00 you've let himg o through 2 full larvae-injection cycles without pressureing him except to kill a couple rcrawlers and an evo chamber.
as a result, you lose most of your army.
when you stay outside his base that long, you need to be all in (since he'll stop making drones and make pure units) or make a few bunkers and walling implements to really contain him. I know i let him temporize and get larvae injection, but what should i do if there are a spines-wall off? If i move my tanks too fast or too close of his natural, I risk losing my army. And as i said, if i try to retreat, he catchs me unsiege..
In that situation I would have gotten as many marines as possible to attack the north evo chamber without the crawler shooting back (i'm not sure there was much room for this). Also, If you want to retreat, just slowly leapfrog back until you're off creep. Leave 1 marine at the front of his creep, and once you're about 2/3rds of a screen length away, you can do a full unsiege and walk home. If the marine dies, siege up.
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On December 09 2011 21:13 -Archangel- wrote:
I got inspired by last SOTG to try to play Terran mech against Toss. But terran is my offrace and I need help.
Are there any good guides I can read (except liquipedia)?
I tried to harass with BFH but toss built cannons behind minerals in all bases so I wasn't really effective. What can mech terran do to deny expansions on big maps?
3 fac mech is a good place to start. It's a bio mech, but marines are just cannon fodder. Blue flame hellion tank marine scv timing attack it hits hard, but is semi gimmicky. You can harass a shit ton with the hellions until they offically defend them. I find a lot of holes (re found when I played 3fac) in a lot of protosses at a decently high level.
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Does anyone have a good replay of a well executed TvZ hellion expand into 3 tank push? I'm trying to find an "optimized" build, or at least one that lines up well and is fast.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 10 2011 13:23 dama wrote:
Does anyone have a good replay of a well executed TvZ hellion expand into 3 tank push? I'm trying to find an "optimized" build, or at least one that lines up well and is fast.
After a grueling and intense search, I found this liquipedia entry called "Reactor Hellion Expand". This build makes a quick factory with a reactor, expands, and transitions solidly into a marine/tank midgame. I think this is what you want:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reactor_Hellion_Expand_(vs._Zerg)
The VoDs are at the bottom.
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On December 10 2011 13:23 dama wrote:
Does anyone have a good replay of a well executed TvZ hellion expand into 3 tank push? I'm trying to find an "optimized" build, or at least one that lines up well and is fast.
Jjakji vs. Leenock GSL finals on crossfire was a good build where it was executed almost flawlessly.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On December 10 2011 18:45 orange7crush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 13:23 dama wrote:
Does anyone have a good replay of a well executed TvZ hellion expand into 3 tank push? I'm trying to find an "optimized" build, or at least one that lines up well and is fast. Jjakji vs. Leenock GSL finals on crossfire was a good build where it was executed almost flawlessly.
He doens't execute a hellion expand though, he does a one base push.
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EPT
