EPTDo you FE and then go mech?
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 92
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Do you FE and then go mech? | ||
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CaptainCharisma
New Zealand808 Posts
On December 17 2011 20:56 Willzzz wrote: What is your standard game plan if he does expo at the normal time? Do you FE and then go mech? I follow it up with a marauder hellion timing attack, expo at the same time, then play marine tank medivac. | ||
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kenkou
United States235 Posts
Also, my go to TvP build is 1 rax expand. So i'm normally not in the position to reveal their units. Should I just make extra bunkers (more than 1) early if I really don't know whats going on? | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
- 2nd Gas timing - saved Chronoboost - 3rd Pylon -> 2nd Gas can be sentry expand or a tech/pressure build. If he also safed a lot of Chronoboost it is a good sign he will be agressive. In this case a 2nd Bunker is always a good idea, because you will be equal or even ahead in economy and can easily effort a additional Bunker. If he has 2 gas and low to none chronoboost that can be a sentry expand or a dt expand/allin build. In this case you should get your ebay earilier like 6 Minutes and you will be fine. If you don´t see a 3rd pylon until his stalker pops and he has 2 gas and a lot of chronoboost, this is mostly a poxy Stargate play. You can also try to see if the first core unit is a sentry or a stalker. If it´s a sentry, it´s most likely a tech build. The 5 Minute scout is also very important. If he follows your scv, don´t be afraid of sending another scv or a marine to look for the following: - Did he expanded - Sentry Count - Unit position -> If he has his units back home and don´t take map control he is most likely teching/allining. If he has a low sentry count and you saw 2 gas and no expandtion perpare for an tech/allin. In this case a scan shouldn´t be a waste to see what he is goining up to and if he has saved a lot of chronoboost. If you see 2 or more zealots and he had only 1 Gas prepare for warprism herras or 4 Gate Warpprism allin. Also note: A early TC is a sign for the mass gateway/ht style, a early robo is most likely collossus play. If he goes blink + observer it can be both, but the collossus paly won´t be that strength. You should also prepare for dt´s and blink stalker/observer herras/allin everytime you scout a early tc. The higher league you play, the more those things should show you what protoss is doing. | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
http://drop.sc/75492 A small description + self critique on my part: Description - Just lost a really dumb TvT so I feel like all-in'ing, 3 rax stim - See he is going 3 gate expo, sentries galore with my reaper - Decide to plop down my CC after realizing I would get raped if I went up the ramp from ffs (its exactly a minute later than his) - Get medivacs, upgrades going, vikings up, move out. - Try and contain; get a third up while containing. - Don't drop: pretty sure it would get cleaned up fairly quickly (?) - Start to get ghosts. - He moves down his ramp and proceeds to take out my entire army for fairly little losses, then double expands. - He remacros up an army, and kills. Self-Critique - 3 rax stim is an all in and I didn't do one iota of damage - Too few medivacs, was very afraid of colossus - Ghosts slightly late - Should have expanded more when I had him contained. - No drops I still find it really annoying I lost this game as I had - More workers - Kept my money lower - Kept up with double forge ups - Expanded more - Had a lower average unspent resources Although I understand I made mistakes. Anyone want to help me out on this one? | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On December 18 2011 00:08 Klonere wrote: Hey guys just played this supremely frustrating game vs P on Shak Plat http://drop.sc/75492 A small description + self critique on my part: Description - Just lost a really dumb TvT so I feel like all-in'ing, 3 rax stim - See he is going 3 gate expo, sentries galore with my reaper - Decide to plop down my CC after realizing I would get raped if I went up the ramp from ffs (its exactly a minute later than his) - Get medivacs, upgrades going, vikings up, move out. - Try and contain; get a third up while containing. - Don't drop: pretty sure it would get cleaned up fairly quickly (?) - Start to get ghosts. - He moves down his ramp and proceeds to take out my entire army for fairly little losses, then double expands. - He remacros up an army, and kills. Self-Critique - 3 rax stim is an all in and I didn't do one iota of damage - Too few medivacs, was very afraid of colossus - Ghosts slightly late - Should have expanded more when I had him contained. - No drops I still find it really annoying I lost this game as I had - More workers - Kept my money lower - Kept up with double forge ups - Expanded more - Had a lower average unspent resources Although I understand I made mistakes. Anyone want to help me out on this one? First things first, you need to work on your early game crispness. Your second barracks, second depot were both very late. When doing an all-in, you can't afford to make mistakes like this or your push will be very noticeably weaker. The build I thought you were doing up until you got a 3rd rax is a 2 rax reactor/techlab build, then you threw down a third rax -- I don't 3 rax stim timing ever but I don't think you're supposed to get a reactor until your 3rd rax finishes. You want the fastest possible stim; to do this you need a tech lab first. The timing is supposed to hit by 7:15 with stim. If you want to do the 2 rax reactor/techlab build, here's that build order: 10 depot 12 rax 14 gas (note: your resources line up better this way. If you get the earliest possible 13 gas, you'll have around 75 gas and not enough minerals when your first marine pops and won't be able to make the reactor immediately) 15 OC (17 OC also works but not quite as well -- because you're delaying your supply depot to make a reactor you want the extra time built in) 15 marine 16 barracks 16 reactor 16 depot 17 tech lab -- your barracks should finish just before your reactor, but you'll basically be making your tech lab and your 2nd and 3rd marines at the same time 18 2 marines, constant marine production 100% tech lab (21, I think) -- Marauder, you may have the resources for concussive right away or it might be 1-2 seconds off, but plan to make it right away From here, just constantly pump units and have one scv continuously build depots until 43. Okay, now back to analyzing your play based on the build you actually used: - Don't go home with your scouting SCV. Hide it in his third and go back into his base between 5:00 and 5:30. A 2 gas protoss could be doing literally anything. He probably isn't 4-gating but there are some sentry 4 gates that do use 2 gas. You do realize this, and turn it around, but it's easier in the future to just make a point to go hide it somewhere in his third. - You had the resources for stim right when your tech lab finished, but you didn't start it for about 20 seconds. Executing all-ins crisply is critical to their success! - At 7:25, you see a 3 gate expand, a very safe build, and you have 500 resources. First off, with 3 rax you should never have pooled resources, and your gateways aren't producing anything. If you just threw down a CC and poked a bit with your army, you would have been basically even economically with the information you got with the reaper. However, even seeing his fairly sizable army, you decided to just keep making units. Although you didn't scout his saturation, that many units and an expansion means that the protoss is cutting probes -- so you actually would have been ahead economically, in good shape for the lategame. Basically, your opponent was going for the safest build possible against early aggression, and you played right into his hands by continuing to play aggressively even though you couldn't really do damage. If you decided to do any sort of tech or expand against that build, you would have been miles ahead, but you didn't use the information available to you properly. - You move out to hit about 1:30 later than a crisp timing. I don't want to discourage you, but it's important to have a reality on this. Also, you want to be at his front door when stim finishes, not moving out of your base when this happens. - At 12:30, you now have 2 medivacs. You need to go poke with this. Because of his safe expand, his colossus was late. You need to take advantage of this. Also note that 1 colossus is not that scary to your army generally -- but you need combat shields! The medivac timing needs to hit with combat shields, because it makes your marines much better against colossus splash. - You stop producing harvesters at 48 -- this is too few. Your economy suffers as a result; you want to get up to at least 60 in the midgame, especially since you were taking a third. EDIT: I see you eventually get to around 60, but this pause really hurts. In fact, you only start making the extra SCV's when you get really close to maxed, and this is when you want to start thinking about pulling some to come fight if you are starting to pool money and are going to respond with extra rax and CC's. - You left 2 vikings, 3 marauders, and 3 marines at your ramp. This probably wouldn't have changed everything, but that's about 1000 resources of units not participating in the fight. - When you have a contain, spread out your units. Also, stand close enough to his ramp that he has to fight in a choke in order to break out. You instead fought on an open field, and didn't take advantage of that by maximizing your concave. Basically, what this does is it makes the battle a succession of 2 70 food armies against a 140 food army, instead of a 140 food army against a 140 food army. This is very bad! Hope this helped, good luck! - If you can manage the multitasking, dropping is really good when you have a contain because it forces the toss to make a tough decision. He knows you can attack at any moment and can't pull too many units. On this map, it's a little easier for him because 2 forcefields block the entire ramp, but this is something you should practice. | ||
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kenkou
United States235 Posts
On December 17 2011 22:18 Sianos wrote: Things you should look for with your first scout: - 2nd Gas timing - saved Chronoboost - 3rd Pylon -> 2nd Gas can be sentry expand or a tech/pressure build. If he also safed a lot of Chronoboost it is a good sign he will be agressive. In this case a 2nd Bunker is always a good idea, because you will be equal or even ahead in economy and can easily effort a additional Bunker. If he has 2 gas and low to none chronoboost that can be a sentry expand or a dt expand/allin build. In this case you should get your ebay earilier like 6 Minutes and you will be fine. If you don´t see a 3rd pylon until his stalker pops and he has 2 gas and a lot of chronoboost, this is mostly a poxy Stargate play. You can also try to see if the first core unit is a sentry or a stalker. If it´s a sentry, it´s most likely a tech build. The 5 Minute scout is also very important. If he follows your scv, don´t be afraid of sending another scv or a marine to look for the following: - Did he expanded - Sentry Count - Unit position -> If he has his units back home and don´t take map control he is most likely teching/allining. If he has a low sentry count and you saw 2 gas and no expandtion perpare for an tech/allin. In this case a scan shouldn´t be a waste to see what he is goining up to and if he has saved a lot of chronoboost. If you see 2 or more zealots and he had only 1 Gas prepare for warprism herras or 4 Gate Warpprism allin. Also note: A early TC is a sign for the mass gateway/ht style, a early robo is most likely collossus play. If he goes blink + observer it can be both, but the collossus paly won´t be that strength. You should also prepare for dt´s and blink stalker/observer herras/allin everytime you scout a early tc. The higher league you play, the more those things should show you what protoss is doing. Thanks for the info. I didn't really think into chrono boost energy too deeply, but it makes sense. Only times I would notice would be when it was ridiculously high (like only 1 chrono used so far). | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
On December 18 2011 01:36 upperbound wrote: First things first, you need to work on your early game crispness. Your second barracks, second depot were both very late. When doing an all-in, you can't afford to make mistakes like this or your push will be very noticeably weaker. The build I thought you were doing up until you got a 3rd rax is a 2 rax reactor/techlab build, then you threw down a third rax -- I don't 3 rax stim timing ever but I don't think you're supposed to get a reactor until your 3rd rax finishes. You want the fastest possible stim; to do this you need a tech lab first. The timing is supposed to hit by 7:15 with stim. If you want to do the 2 rax reactor/techlab build, here's that build order: 10 depot 12 rax 14 gas (note: your resources line up better this way. If you get the earliest possible 13 gas, you'll have around 75 gas and not enough minerals when your first marine pops and won't be able to make the reactor immediately) 15 OC (17 OC also works but not quite as well -- because you're delaying your supply depot to make a reactor you want the extra time built in) 15 marine 16 barracks 16 reactor 16 depot 17 tech lab -- your barracks should finish just before your reactor, but you'll basically be making your tech lab and your 2nd and 3rd marines at the same time 18 2 marines, constant marine production 100% tech lab (21, I think) -- Marauder, you may have the resources for concussive right away or it might be 1-2 seconds off, but plan to make it right away From here, just constantly pump units and have one scv continuously build depots until 43. Okay, now back to analyzing your play based on the build you actually used: - Don't go home with your scouting SCV. Hide it in his third and go back into his base between 5:00 and 5:30. A 2 gas protoss could be doing literally anything. He probably isn't 4-gating but there are some sentry 4 gates that do use 2 gas. You do realize this, and turn it around, but it's easier in the future to just make a point to go hide it somewhere in his third. - You had the resources for stim right when your tech lab finished, but you didn't start it for about 20 seconds. Executing all-ins crisply is critical to their success! - At 7:25, you see a 3 gate expand, a very safe build, and you have 500 resources. First off, with 3 rax you should never have pooled resources, and your gateways aren't producing anything. If you just threw down a CC and poked a bit with your army, you would have been basically even economically with the information you got with the reaper. However, even seeing his fairly sizable army, you decided to just keep making units. Although you didn't scout his saturation, that many units and an expansion means that the protoss is cutting probes -- so you actually would have been ahead economically, in good shape for the lategame. Basically, your opponent was going for the safest build possible against early aggression, and you played right into his hands by continuing to play aggressively even though you couldn't really do damage. If you decided to do any sort of tech or expand against that build, you would have been miles ahead, but you didn't use the information available to you properly. - You move out to hit about 1:30 later than a crisp timing. I don't want to discourage you, but it's important to have a reality on this. Also, you want to be at his front door when stim finishes, not moving out of your base when this happens. - At 12:30, you now have 2 medivacs. You need to go poke with this. Because of his safe expand, his colossus was late. You need to take advantage of this. Also note that 1 colossus is not that scary to your army generally -- but you need combat shields! The medivac timing needs to hit with combat shields, because it makes your marines much better against colossus splash. - You stop producing harvesters at 48 -- this is too few. Your economy suffers as a result; you want to get up to at least 60 in the midgame, especially since you were taking a third. EDIT: I see you eventually get to around 60, but this pause really hurts. In fact, you only start making the extra SCV's when you get really close to maxed, and this is when you want to start thinking about pulling some to come fight if you are starting to pool money and are going to respond with extra rax and CC's. - You left 2 vikings, 3 marauders, and 3 marines at your ramp. This probably wouldn't have changed everything, but that's about 1000 resources of units not participating in the fight. - When you have a contain, spread out your units. Also, stand close enough to his ramp that he has to fight in a choke in order to break out. You instead fought on an open field, and didn't take advantage of that by maximizing your concave. Basically, what this does is it makes the battle a succession of 2 70 food armies against a 140 food army, instead of a 140 food army against a 140 food army. This is very bad! Hope this helped, good luck! - If you can manage the multitasking, dropping is really good when you have a contain because it forces the toss to make a tough decision. He knows you can attack at any moment and can't pull too many units. On this map, it's a little easier for him because 2 forcefields block the entire ramp, but this is something you should practice. Thanks a lot for the help, I just played almost the exact same game, except with 2 rax reactor first expand and won it was quite gratifying. Thanks again. | ||
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neozxa
Indonesia545 Posts
Secondly, is mech actually viable in TvT when the opponent decides to go Marine Tank with Viking support? Do you actually use your Hellions to close in and kill the opponent's Tanks, or does it come down to air dominance so that you can kill the opponent's tanks with your own? Thanks in advance. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On December 18 2011 04:05 neozxa wrote: I know this is more or less a survey question, but I'm going to ask anyway. How do you deal with drops mid-late game? In every matchup. Do you either spread out your army like a boss, or do you place turrets in hope that you can deny the dropship before it drops the units inside? Secondly, is mech actually viable in TvT when the opponent decides to go Marine Tank with Viking support? Do you actually use your Hellions to close in and kill the opponent's Tanks, or does it come down to air dominance so that you can kill the opponent's tanks with your own? Thanks in advance. Okay, here's what I do for drops: TvP -- If my opponent has shown a warp prism, i try to zone out areas by my mineral line with turrets so the prism has to drop on a side of a base. With the deployment and warp-in time, i can usually respond before i take too much economic damage. Zealots are too slow at killing buildings for that to be a threat, and HT have to walk too far to storm my mineral line. TvZ -- I just place supply depots to spot and then react. If my opponent had gone mutas at some point, then drops are pretty stupid because I already have the outer edges zoned with turrets, but in a roach/infestor compo I just invite the doom drop and then go for it. I start producing vikings DURING the drop to snipe retreating overlords to punish the zerg. TvT - Once I have enough bases that I can't cover with a few marines without severely undercutting my army, I starting putting up sensors and tons of turrets to stop the obvious drop areas. This is because I usually play defensively with bio harassment in tvt off of a gasless expo --> 1-1-1 --> bio (unless we're on XNC, in which case the only viable build is to play an aggressive 1-1-1 imo) And yes, in fact mech is actually best against biomech in TvT because Hellion/Thor/Viking is usually better than Marine/Marauder/Viking with a few extra tanks. Whether or not you run in with hellions depends on how many marines he has, and how spread out his tanks are. Good tank spread, don't run hellions in, and if there are still marines, don't either. Instead, the right move is usually just runby and go harass, this is why you have the hellions. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 17 2011 16:41 Malakar wrote: Whats the best response to 3 gate twilight council into charge. The protoss player then went for templar archives and i thought he was trying to do some 4 gate blink so i turtled up. for some kind of all-in. What would be the appropriate response to a Protoss thats teching to charge very fast? Attacking with mara marine and shells and stim in that giant window of time he gives you as he techs to charge with only zeal stalkers and sentries. I feel i'm having trouble scouting vP early game lately. Its very normal for toss to take double gas and expand, or double gas and tech/all-in. I do keep that scout alive to see if he's expanded early, but I know I won't always be able to keep that initial scout alive. Are early scans really the only way to know what tech they're going? As we might all know, scans can easily miss if they decide to build their buildings away from each other. Also, my go to TvP build is 1 rax expand. So i'm normally not in the position to reveal their units. Should I just make extra bunkers (more than 1) early if I really don't know whats going on? Reaper FE. Keep scv alive if you scout him, leave his base by ~4 min before stalker pops, and rescout around 4:30-4:45 when most would stalker poke. If he isn't stalker poking, the stalker will target the scv. Hop the reaper up the cliff and scout, pick off guys in gas. Check chrono amount, and if he has 2 gas or not. If 1 gas, it's 4 gate or 1 gate FE. If he has 3 gate, 2 gas, and no expo, it's DT or VR. Again, check chrono. If you see it used, and nothing around is used on, it's a proxy stargate. Reaper FE, gas stop at 75 just enough for reaper + tech lab, then get CC, save up to ~220 minerals, pull 2 scvs off minerals and make rax 2 and 3 at same time. Put 3 back on gas before reaper finishes (I do it at approx 75% reaper done) Get shells + marauder, depot at 23-35 somewhere in there. If he is doing a VR timing, skip reactors and get rax 4 and 5 and stay in base and win with ease. | ||
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BogusBart
Canada24 Posts
I'm looking for some 2 rax Marauder allin rush builds (vs Toss). If any of you know some I would love if you could share =D Thanks, Your friendly neighborhood Bogus! | ||
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MonDeW
Denmark369 Posts
1) What is a good TvT cloak banshee build? Never really used such a build since silver, and i don't know the right gas timings and such. Also, when do i drop my expo when i go for cloaked banshees?  2) I am really afraid of engaging protoss. Always. If i spot his army, see he has a couple of sentries, some immortals and zealots etc (i faced this earlier), and i have a bigger army, i'm too afraid of engaging. In the late game i always let him engage, just because i'm afraid. | ||
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MooSlapper
United States113 Posts
When I drop directly in mineral lines, once the first meager unstimme marine drops, they run for the hills. If their first warning is a pack of 5-10 stimmed marines plowing through the mineral field... well.. it seems like it'll do more damage, despite having to walk. When dropping directly on the ineral line, you etiher have to stim each one individually (which gets confusing oncet he medivac heals ppl, who is unstimmed) or wait for all of them, THEN stim. I wish you could stim in the medivac like u can in bunkers. How gay--- it's a medivac! It should have extra stim in there! so---- plz discuss. Not sure whatt he best way is | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Standard 2rax build order is 10depot 12rax 13refinery reactor with 50 gas, 16OC, 16barracks, tech lab immediately and constant troop production get conc asap and attack when second maurader finishes. Expand when 400 minerals builds up. Its not really that all in but it certainly is helpful if you deal damage. @mondew 1) 10depot 12rax 13refinery 15OC depot factory refinery starport depot make techlab on factory get banshee and cloak make cc when you can afford it and make marines throughout 2) this isn't really a question, try to improve your macro and then you will have a bigger army and not be afraid? @Mooslapper Generally you do want to drop on the outskirts of the base for the reasons you stated. Sometimes if they have good building position, then they see your drop anyway so then you might as well just drop on the mineral line. Also if you are doing 2 or 3 simultaneous drops then its better to drop on the mineral line since you might not be ready to micro that drop right away but you still want it to do damage. | ||
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
1) What is the appropriate response to seeing 2 fast evo chambers by zerg for quick 1/1 upgrades? (I usually reactor hellion expand) 2) When mutas are on the map keeping me pinned in my base, what should I be prioritizing? Upgrades? Expansions? Defence? Should I be aggressive at all like drops and stuff? | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On December 18 2011 08:50 statikg wrote: @Bogus Standard 2rax build order is 10depot 12rax 13refinery reactor with 50 gas, 16OC, 16barracks, tech lab immediately and constant troop production get conc asap and attack when second maurader finishes. Expand when 400 minerals builds up. Its not really that all in but it certainly is helpful if you deal damage. I might be wrong on this but an opening like that pushes with 2 marauders and 2-3 marines, which I feel is a rather weak timing and doesn't fully utilize the 2nd rax. I personally prefer similar opening where you go reactor on the first rax, lab on the second, build as marines as you can and go at 2 marauders with conc. Gives you a solid 10 marines, plus the two marauders. It's an okay opener on short maps like XNC, but rather all-in on longer maps (as with all early pushes). | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On December 18 2011 10:36 Derez wrote: I might be wrong on this but an opening like that pushes with 2 marauders and 2-3 marines, which I feel is a rather weak timing and doesn't fully utilize the 2nd rax. I personally prefer similar opening where you go reactor on the first rax, lab on the second, build as marines as you can and go at 2 marauders with conc. Gives you a solid 10 marines, plus the two marauders. It's an okay opener on short maps like XNC, but rather all-in on longer maps (as with all early pushes). My build is correct it pushes with less then 10 marines but if you have 10 your building your second rax too late, its a good build on many maps. Very strong against 1gate expand which is more common on bigger maps. | ||
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wOrD yO
Australia119 Posts
if one was facing tvp and P is archon zealot, is it smart to get cloak and emp or is it better to just blanket EMP to save energy? thanks. oh stupid question you can cloak with ghosts and still emp twice ^_^ ok so another question, when LINING THEM UP!! can you shift attack and go back to macro or is smarter to just a move? thanks | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 18 2011 13:45 wOrD yO wrote: edit: if one was facing tvp and P is archon zealot, is it smart to get cloak and emp or is it better to just blanket EMP to save energy? thanks. oh stupid question you can cloak with ghosts and still emp twice ^_^ ok so another question, when LINING THEM UP!! can you shift attack and go back to macro or is smarter to just a move? thanks Cloak is always worth it. I can remember 2 specific games I won because I had cloak. He did a collsai transition I didn't catch. 6 collsai on the field, I cloaked my 12 ghosts, and killed each one. | ||
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