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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
I haven't lost to a 4 gate in about 3 weeks until today, and this is the 2 gas variation. Map is antiga shipyard. No idea what I did wrong. I stayed on high ground, constantly produced units, tried to replenish my bunker as it died. This is usually an auto-win for me, but I lost this game, and I have no idea why. Can anyone take a look, very quickly? It's probably something obvious that I'm missing. http://drop.sc/76166 | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 19 2011 06:49 upperbound wrote: Hey guys, I haven't lost to a 4 gate in about 3 weeks until today, and this is the 2 gas variation. Map is antiga shipyard. No idea what I did wrong. I stayed on high ground, constantly produced units, tried to replenish my bunker as it died. This is usually an auto-win for me, but I lost this game, and I have no idea why. Can anyone take a look, very quickly? It's probably something obvious that I'm missing. http://drop.sc/76166 Everything looks right so far. See only 2 pylons, 2 gas, core, gate, and lot of nexus energy and go hide scv. 2 gas, and he hasn't poked, scv rescout got denied. You have 2 OC's, it's time to scan. Big lull before you start any units from the tech lab barracks. I always put marines in bunkers, because of low HP, and let maras stay out, but that's personal preference. I think you pulled a FEW too many scvs for this engagement. Okay here's the first REAL issue. SCVs are sitting idle, and not even surrounding the bunker to repair it. Also, you start a factory a bit prematurely, with no units, and a HUGE supply block. Against any 1 base all in with a gasless or any FE, you cannot be supply blocked at all. Sack it up at the mistake of a block that large, and drop a depot down. Scan his main/ramp area to see if he FE's by ~6 minutes with a 2 gas protoss, as it could be sentry heavy FE, or DT/VR/3 gate robo rush. Not seeing an expo sets off bells and whistles, and you start your immediate 2nd and 3rd bunker. You pull 10 SCV at 6:47 vs 3 shown stalkers, with 2 marauders in a bunker and 5 marines. Unnecessary. 8:25 he's at your ramp. Those 10 scvs are still there, and only 1 bunker. You were blocked badly. You don't have a clue of his base, expo, or tech as you didn't scout. 5 zeals, 9 stalkers 3 sentries vs 2 marauders 10 marines. That's an army for like minute...5 not minute almost 9. He backs off, make 2 bunkers!! Small things, you're making marines out of tech lab barracks when you need marauders against stalker heavy gate pressure. You 100% need conc shell, and you went stim first. Get conc shell first, then stim. Your barracks hit idle times during each battle. You need to produce units. He one based you, pull scvs. Let him come up the ramp into a choke (the ramp), pull 10-15 scvs, mineral walk to nat, stim and a move infantry, scvs attack after passing stalkers = flank no more running and your army wins. Even after losing all that in your base, and 13 works to 23, you're ahead. 6 marauders, 4 marines, 2 medics. That can walk over protoss t1 crap. 4 zeal 3 stalker 4 sentries That last fight was just bad micro. It was still winnable. If you had a concave at top of ramp, and just backed off, pulled scvs, and attacked you would've won. Marauders need to target better. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
On December 19 2011 06:49 upperbound wrote: Hey guys, I haven't lost to a 4 gate in about 3 weeks until today, and this is the 2 gas variation. Map is antiga shipyard. No idea what I did wrong. I stayed on high ground, constantly produced units, tried to replenish my bunker as it died. This is usually an auto-win for me, but I lost this game, and I have no idea why. Can anyone take a look, very quickly? It's probably something obvious that I'm missing. http://drop.sc/76166 Man I don't know what league you're in or how long you've been doing this opening, but with cc before 2nd depot and such a late bunker I'm surprised you don't die to fast zealot-stalker pokes because the generally cc is down before the marine can kill the scouting probe. Ballsy play lol. Here's how I would have played it: As soon as my scv was killed by 2 stalkers(unable to scout expo or main) I would have sent out another immediately. the hard part about protoss cheese is that there's some variety, and I feel like if he had done vr cheese you would have been dead sooner. The point being is that you didn't know what was coming until it actually came. The 2nd scv can scout "oh shit a lott of units killed me->4 gate" I would rather scan the main, but I don't think it was that bad of an idea to scan the nat. It's a bit of a gamble to guess that you'll be able to id the cheese, but hey, I think it's preference. Anyway, as soon as the 2nd scv dies, I would have built a second bunker behind it. You held the first push ok, but not being able to get a new one up really hurt you later on. You can space the 2nd one much closer to the rax or your main cc, but the point is that it can't be sniped unless protoss moves ALL the way in. Another big point is that you should have pulled your second wave of scvs much sooner, like as soon as protoss actually got into your base. Pulling like half then would have helped a lot, instead of at the end when there's no more dps to be dealt other than from the scvs. Also, engaging in the shoke is good for your units, but awful for your scvs. They're like zerglings, you want/need a surround to make good use of them. They also do much better versus stalkers than zealots, so that last engagement went much more poorly than it should have. | ||
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MrChupee
Australia161 Posts
http://drop.sc/76191 | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
O n i watched the replay. u could have afforded both armories much sooner and double upgrades much sooner than u got them and it was about half of the reason u lost the engagement mid map. the other half was your micro. u had vikings, but werent spotting ahead of your army to give your self time to properly position and siege your tanks. even without making that mistake you werent as active with ur hellions mid fight as u could be. iv found that if u have hellion thor and even tanks it can be very usefull to take ur hellions(on a differnt hotkey) and run circles around your oppenent(while attacking) as it really messes with the games target selection AI(which seems to tell roaches, and most units, to shoot wat ever's closest to them unless the player says other wise) and forces your opponent to manually target fire your high dps units(your tanks and thors) increasing the chance of your opponent over-killing them thus making them less effective in the fight as a whole. as for when to make a push either time it with an upgrade or center every thing around denying a particular base of your opponent while continuing to expand when its safe to or when u absolutely need the added income to support your army, tho usually a push can be made on a minimum of 2 bases and just a side note for the opening. it was painful to watch u lose so many hellions for nothing.be active with them; deny creep check for expansions, kite anything that isnt standing right next spine just wat ever u do dont try to sac hellions to attempt to kill drones. and u should almost definatly get the 3rd and 4th gases on your nat unless that was intentional and u wanted that many hellions. just realize that is slows your upgrades. lol this is taking much longer than i thought it would buuut -never engage on creep if u dont have to -ALMOST never run away you thors. there waaaaaaay to slow to escape from anything other than another thor. its usually better just to let them do as much damage as they can before they die -your macro could use a little work too, dont forget to keep tapping while in fights. the reinforcements could help u win the fight or at the least keep you from dying from a counter attack. -tho the fight was probably distracting u in game. dont forget to add 2-3 factories per expo. as well as putting workers in the 5th and 6th gases i find it hard to believe that i should be in silver with this knowledge but so much is the ladder system.hope this helped | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
The distances are so huge, and you have absolutely no idea where the Zerg is. He could pounce on you at any second and destroy your unsieged/clumped up army, or counter attack, or muta harass. I know people say "drops" but any good Zerg has overlords spread out, and goes muta to shut anything down. Plus they tend to build a ton of spines at their expos. I'm really at a loss on what to do on that map in particular. edit: uploaded replay as example of what usually happens in most of my TvZ, and especially on big maps. http://drop.sc/76280 | ||
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Bwall
Sweden145 Posts
On December 19 2011 15:32 kill619 wrote: i find it hard to believe that i should be in silver with this knowledge Knowing what to do is not the same as being able to do it. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:11 Scila wrote: Back to this thread for some help. How do you guys deal with TvZ on Tal'Darm? I'm high masters and pretty much lose 100% of the time on that map unless the Zerg goes for some kind of all-in and fails. I play very macro builds on it (fast third while I harass with 6 hellions), but there's always the same problem. The distances are so huge, and you have absolutely no idea where the Zerg is. He could pounce on you at any second and destroy your unsieged/clumped up army, or counter attack, or muta harass. I know people say "drops" but any good Zerg has overlords spread out, and goes muta to shut anything down. Plus they tend to build a ton of spines at their expos. I'm really at a loss on what to do on that map in particular. edit: uploaded replay as example of what usually happens in most of my TvZ, and especially on big maps. http://drop.sc/76280 Your problem had little to do with the map size. You lost your first push because you were way too reckless; you need to scan ahead, stim a small group of Marines (not your whole group of Marines, especially if you don't have enough Medivacs, a problem you had the whole game) and get rid of all Tumors (and Spines in that case) while pre-splitting your Marines behind and slowly deploy your Tanks. You have to be really cautious on the creep, otherwise you will be fungaled to death the way it happened. Second push, watch his sight at 18'55: again, he sees nearly everything because there are still 2 Tumors near your army. You sit around doing nothing, so he has time to prepare and you get swept because your army was weakened by your losses in the former push. I think you did not scout enough this game; from what I watched, you didn't know he was going Mutas yet pre-emptively built mass Turrets. What if he had went Ling/Infestors instead? You also didn't scout his Hive timing (which was earlier than usual), which means you couldn't really prepare in time for his Tier3. You have 92 SCVs when he goes your fourth, this is way too many. Stop around 70-75, maybe 80 at most. About finding where the Zerg army is, you can use Sensor Towers near your bases, and scans to know if it's safe to go out and take Towers. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:11 Scila wrote: Back to this thread for some help. How do you guys deal with TvZ on Tal'Darm? I'm high masters and pretty much lose 100% of the time on that map unless the Zerg goes for some kind of all-in and fails. I play very macro builds on it (fast third while I harass with 6 hellions), but there's always the same problem. The distances are so huge, and you have absolutely no idea where the Zerg is. He could pounce on you at any second and destroy your unsieged/clumped up army, or counter attack, or muta harass. I know people say "drops" but any good Zerg has overlords spread out, and goes muta to shut anything down. Plus they tend to build a ton of spines at their expos. I'm really at a loss on what to do on that map in particular. edit: uploaded replay as example of what usually happens in most of my TvZ, and especially on big maps. http://drop.sc/76280 Lost 3 hellions for basically nothing. You have to remake/build more hellions to compensate which slows down any timing push/expansion etc. If you're going for a delayed starport, (as you do). I'd recommend building at least one medivac before you build the reactor. It'll allow you to stim a little bit more and, as a result, allow you to defend against the early mutalisks that bit easier. It can also allow you to do a bit more poking around the map since you'll actually be able to stim a little. Since your hellions have died, you've basically got no map control. You have no idea if he's taking a 4th, if he's continuing to build mutalisks or if he's swapped tech. Try to send two marines to a watchtower, (if you don't want to push out with your whole army). You should be able to get an idea of where about his army is, (i.e if it's not within watchtower vision range or if the marines aren't killed along the way, it's most likely his army is on his side of the map. If the zerg is bad, then they'll send their muta flock to clear it out. If they're good, they'll send a couple of lings. At the very least you get an idea of where his army is located. You do a scan at the 15:00 mark which essentially gains less information than 2 marines at a watchtower would. Similiarly drops can be used to gather an idea of how big a mutalisk flock is, (since zergs will bring ALL of their mutalisks to clear it up the vast majority of the time). I suppose you could wonder why this is significant. Well a large mutalisk flock, as you are well aware, will require a different response than a small one will. Large mutalisk flocks you want to be adding thors and keeping a small group of marines in your base. A small mutalisk flock often indicates a switch to infestors and hive tech. In the latter case, you need to be doing a lot of poking to fill up the zergs supply with units he doesn't want to build, (like zerglings) so he ends up with a 200/200 supply of weaker units. The push you do around the 15:30 minute mark seems to agree with this logic but your execution is a bit off. The very fact he hasn't been harassing constantly with mutalisks should be a sign that he's switching tech. The most likely choice for a tech switch is infestors. You're trying to do a double drop but by doing a double drop with such a low medivac count, you're leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to fungal growth as well as limiting your stim usage. In this situation, given your low medivac count, I wouldn't have bothered with the double drops and just kept them with your main army. At the 16:00 mark you get WAY too eager with the attack. You end up sieging too late and having significant clumps of marines fungaled. You clear up his first attack sure, but you're WAY too damaged for it. Zergs don't care if you beat their first push if they can crush you with the second. In this case, the zergs follow up push destroys four of your tanks and the rest of your marines. You're only building off 1 factory so a 4 tank loss at this point is HUGE. At 16:00 you should be thinking about taking a 4th because it's around this point your main beging to dry up. Furthermore, against infestor based strategies, you should be thinking about the possibility of hive tech at this point and preparing accordingly. You build your 4th at around the 17 minute mark so I guess the first half of my analysis there isn't quite so important. Your +1 vehicle weapons is finshing at the 18 minute mark that's incredibly late. +1 vehicles is one of THE most important upgrades in the entire matchup. The sooner you can get it, the better. The earlier push you did at 15:30 would've been significantly stronger if you'd have +1 tanks. Given everything that's happened, a 4 siege tank push at the 18 minute mark is NOT enough to warrant a committed push. You're in a very dfficult position at the moment because you can't afford to turtle, (or else you'll get rolled by hive tech units + superior economy) nor can you afford to committ because your army just isn't strong enough. Constant poking to fill up the zerg's supply is the best you can hope for at this point. Siege up, clear some creep up and get out of there. Instead you decide to sit in that wide open area with a weak army - that army is going to get cleared up easily by the first - if not the second zerg attack. If you're setting up an offensive position in such a wide open area at such a late stage in the game, you NEED a decent tank count; 8+ at least. After that push gets cleared up, the game is basically over. He's getting hive tech units and you're basically still on the mid game tech of marine/tank. You needed to recognise the time when marauders/ghosts or vikings should've been built. You've already lost because of the army you lost in that engagement but your lack of tech is going to be the nail in the coffin. One final thing is you build too many scvs. I encounter the same problem but you've really got to work on keeping an scv count at around 70. Zergs can afford smaller armies because they can rely on reinforcements to clear up. We terran's cannot. Just get into a habit of thinking 'ok stop producing scvs'. You can take time to check your scv count or, (as I do) arbitrarily choose to stop building when you think you have enough. Hope some of that helps. | ||
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Kiwiandapple
Belgium240 Posts
On December 18 2011 23:24 TheDwf wrote: You should have enough Marines to deal with the DTs, whether you go +2 or +3 rax after your expand (I'm talking about gasless 1 rax FE, by the way). For the replay: http://drop.sc/75829 I went +3 rax after expand in the replay, and since I scouted dual gas at the beginning and no expand after a while, I delayed my Starport tech and built a lot of Marines. Hilariously enough, my scan revealed a Chronoboost on a hidden build; I correctly assumed it was a Robo, but had no clue he was going DTs along with it. I had a Turret near my natural with a full bunker nearby, so DTs were not allowed to threaten my natural, and this allowed me to concentrate on defending the main. Messed up my second scan, but did not lose much. I had a clear push window after this, but since I had no Starport yet I did not feel like going out without a Raven... Should have tried anyway, since my passivity allowed him to go double Robo Colossi as a follow-up (I was expecting Archons, so I went Ghost Academy). About defending Void Ray all-in with gasless 1 rax FE, I have this one (opponent was midMaster at the time we played, I think): http://drop.sc/53574 (messed up with no Turrets in my mineral line and not pulling SCVs for the main fight). Don't forget that you can just push out anyway - after you cleared your main dts/warp prisme - without a stargate. grab 3/4 scvs with your bio ball - make sure to not drop mules, go to his natural, should have 2 scans by the time you get there, those are used for the few lonely dt's, then build a turret outside his natural - if he rushes for dts/warp prisme he will have nearly no units/army at all. so you should be able to get his 'allready' delayed natural without to much trouble - while meanwhile, you can get your starport.ghost acedemy up. its something i awlays do when i get dt rushed and dont die to them. | ||
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trew
Sweden93 Posts
http://drop.sc/76315 I held his 4-gate and ended up in a huge lead. Tried to take my third as fast as I could but I think the deciding battle occured at 24:ish. My 200 food vs his 150 and I lost so bad. I'm thinking ghost would do the trick but I don't really have the apm to macro and micro ghost/viking/army at the same time.  I'm just stunned that my army melts so fast to his units. | ||
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LukasG
Germany95 Posts
Btw im a Platin league Terran I hope you can help me :D http://drop.sc/76320 | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Pointers for TvZ Mech? Like, dangerous timings, composition, maps, etc? Mech usually hits around 120-150 supply. The reason is that before youre army is pretty weak, and after the Zerg very likely has lair tech already. You want to end the game normally with your first push, because afterwords you will be facing the zerg production of 3-5 bases. As composition, it's going to be made of 3 factories: one reactor and two tech labs (this is off two base). It's your decision to make thors or siege tanks, but you want enough of both of them: Tanks for the splash, and the Thors are youre only anti-air. If you ever reach lategame mech, you're required to build ghosts and vikings (this is why I don't like late game mech. Sniping requires quite a bit of APM and reaction time. You're going to have to be verey confident in your attention spread if you want to use ghosts). | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
Try to concentrate on getting more troops out rather than relying on bunkers, your production is just awful. You cannot leave so many SCV idle at your bunkers for so long, and I feel you wasted too much energy on scans. You must get your starport up, much sooner than you did. | ||
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LukasG
Germany95 Posts
ok thank you for your answer i will trying to realize your tips i hope i will ^^ | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:59 trew wrote: Hey guys. first time I'm posting for help here, because I'm absolutely lost. Matchup is TvP and I'm platinum. http://drop.sc/76315 I held his 4-gate and ended up in a huge lead. Tried to take my third as fast as I could but I think the deciding battle occured at 24:ish. My 200 food vs his 150 and I lost so bad. I'm thinking ghost would do the trick but I don't really have the apm to macro and micro ghost/viking/army at the same time. I'm just stunned that my army melts so fast to his units. You cut a ton of SCV's during the 4 gate, so economically you were pretty even by the time you held it off. The time to punish a 4 gate is as soon as he stops applying pressure -- once the waves of stalkers start getting smaller, move out right away. You let him build up an economy without building up your own. Also, no need for 8 rax off of two base, and especially no need for 6 of those rax to have tech labs. He went double robo colossus -- you need to scout this, either with a drop or a scan, start immediate viking production, and throw down a second starport. You did switch to a more marauder-heavy composition, which is good. He was really tech-heavy at the end, and you need to abuse this with drops. Colossus and HT are both slow, and suck without other gateway support. If you could pull away his stalkers you could stim in and win easily.\ Also, because of the way Terran production works, staying maxed for a while is not a good idea. Ideally, you want to hit at something like 185 when you're ahead in supply so that you take advantage of the fact that terran needs to have constant production, while zerg and toss can "save up." Finally, there was no need to engage at 25:00. You just sniped his third and were out of position, retreat back and split your army up. Attacking in a line is always, always, always bad. You need a concave for so many reasons against the protoss army. You could have won that engagement without ghosts, but not with such a bad angle. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:59 trew wrote: Hey guys. first time I'm posting for help here, because I'm absolutely lost. Matchup is TvP and I'm platinum. http://drop.sc/76315 I held his 4-gate and ended up in a huge lead. Tried to take my third as fast as I could but I think the deciding battle occured at 24:ish. My 200 food vs his 150 and I lost so bad. I'm thinking ghost would do the trick but I don't really have the apm to macro and micro ghost/viking/army at the same time. I'm just stunned that my army melts so fast to his units. Watched the game. You did do some big mistakes that cost the game: 1. You could have pulled more SCVs and held those bunkers even easier. You wouldn't have lost that many marines and bunkers in total then. You actually lost as many resources as he did in the push. 2. (these two points are actually because of your skill level. Just keep them in mind, but don't give your entire loss to them). Could have gotten the factory faster to tech to starport. Also, you could have gotten a tech lab faster as well. 3. You saw he only had stalkers by the end of the push. Get more than one tech lab for marauders 4. You salvaged your bunkers at 11:00. WHY????? You have two base (he doesn't), he has a huge army, and you can turtle easily. This is the main reason you lost. Dude, the next few minutes you lost far too many unnecessary units: With those bunkers you could have waited for a bigger army, gotten your economy in check, and maybe gotten upgrades. 5. You had one medivac far too long: Those units were deep in the orange at the 12:00-14:00 minutes. Produce them non-stop. 6. He was already economically ahead by the 14:30 minute. Why? a) You lost a lot of SCVs by pulling them (You had not enough bunkers) b)You did not make SCVs non-stop, or even close to it. 7. In the 14:00 minute mark you make lots of barracks. Why? Off of two base, you can fund 5 rax and one reactor starport. 8. Only one add-on in the 14:00 minute mark. Even with pressure, you want almost all of them having add-ons by then. 9. You waited far too long for your push: Once you saw the expansion, you should've pushed out (Although you didn't really have enough army to kill him because lost so many in the 4 gate.) 10. The rest of the game was a macro game, and you lost because you let him macro up, get the HT colossus death ball (Ever terran complains about it, try to avoid that stage of the game), didn't spread your units against the storms, didn't have ghosts, not enough vikings, and almost his entire army consisted of tier 2+ units And we all know tier 2 units are more cost effective than tier 1). | ||
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DelugeSC
United States96 Posts
On December 20 2011 01:57 LukasG wrote: Hey i have lots of Problems in TvP in this game i lost vs immortal contain (bust) i didn´t scout the robotics or too late but what do you think i did wrong it´s so hard to macro up because i always have to micro my scvs for the repair .... Btw im a Platin league Terran I hope you can help me :D http://drop.sc/76320 I'm a Platinum Terran as well. There were a few things I noticed about your game. -Your Barracks placement is a bit odd. The one all the way in the corner is the furthest spot possible from your rally point. Seems insignificant maybe, but the extra distance the units coming out of it have to run can make a difference in a close battle. -At 9:00 you could have broken the contain with some pulled SCVs and a good concave. He only had 1 Immortal and 6-7 Stalkers to your 16 Marines and 2 Marauders. -When contained like this, you have to rush to Medivacs for 2 reasons 1) You can drop your opponent. You have the bunkers at your base for defense, if you send 2 dropships to his main he has to either retreat, allowing you some breathing room, or go for a base-trade which you will win handily with the help of your bunkers and SCVs. 2) You can smash his contain. In the replay you stimmed with no Medivacs. bad idea. Do this if you have no other option. In this case he just saw you stimmed and backed off. That did more damage to your units than if he had stayed and fought. -You didn't lose to a 3 Gate Robo. You beat the 3 Gate Robo, but then got contained and lost the macro game. All in all you fought off the all-in very well. If you scout this build I recommend at least 4 bunkers as soon as possible. You get a 4th bunker on the top of your ramp but by that point he has blink and colossi and the game is over anyways. Hope that helps a little. | ||
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LukasG
Germany95 Posts
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trew
Sweden93 Posts
On December 20 2011 02:38 upperbound wrote: no need for 6 of those rax to have tech labs. On December 20 2011 02:38 upperbound wrote: You did switch to a more marauder-heavy composition, which is good. contradictions? On December 20 2011 02:38 upperbound wrote: He was really tech-heavy at the end, and you need to abuse this with drops. Colossus and HT are both slow, and suck without other gateway support. If you could pull away his stalkers you could stim in and win easily.\ I've been trying drops, but they clean it up so easily. If they don't snipe the medivac with feedback, a warpin-round of 3-4 zealots clean it up easily. On December 20 2011 02:38 upperbound wrote: Finally, there was no need to engage at 25:00. You just sniped his third and were out of position, retreat back and split your army up. Attacking in a line is always, always, always bad. You need a concave for so many reasons against the protoss army. You could have won that engagement without ghosts, but not with such a bad angle. Exactly what do you mean be "split your army up"? Just create a concave or what? Or split into groups? And how far back would that be? Back to base? I don't understand how I could've won that engagement without ghost. On December 20 2011 02:39 DarkCore wrote: 6. He was already economically ahead by the 14:30 minute. Why? a) You lost a lot of SCVs by pulling them (You had not enough bunkers) b)You did not make SCVs non-stop, or even close to it. Checking at 14:30, I have 32 scv+mules from 2 OC and he has 35 probes. Foodwise he's at 49 and I'm at 81. I'm not in a big lead? or what am I missing...? The rest of what you guys said is great advice! I just quoted the things I'm curious or unclear about. | ||
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