EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 96
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Automata
393 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2011 08:37 Automata wrote: Thanks. I'm in silver so I just need to get into good habits and macro properly (or that's what I've been told). I'm going to practice these against bots until I can execute them properly before going on ladder to play. The best bots to practice against, by the way, are the "Green Tea AI" bots. You can pick a build order or style for them to execute, and they'll try it against you (before transitioning into a different midgame I think). Some attacks they execute decently well, and some they kinda don't, especially if it requires weird micro. Better than blizzard AI though. | ||
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Automata
393 Posts
On December 20 2011 08:43 Blazinghand wrote: The best bots to practice against, by the way, are the "Green Tea AI" bots. You can pick a build order or style for them to execute, and they'll try it against you (before transitioning into a different midgame I think). Some attacks they execute decently well, and some they kinda don't, especially if it requires weird micro. Better than blizzard AI though. I've been recommended this map/bot called "Yabot". Should I stick with this or download Green Tea AI? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2011 08:57 Automata wrote: I've been recommended this map/bot called "Yabot". Should I stick with this or download Green Tea AI? Yabot is also good (yet another build order tester). Use it to learn builds. Green Tea AI is actually a bot you fight against. I don't know which maps have it-- I'd recommend you try both and go with the one you like. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 20 2011 08:15 Willzzz wrote: You know I think some of those builds are a little out of date when talking about the map pool. On some maps and especially cross positions I would consider 2 rax sub-optimal. Polt disagrees (and I guess iNcontrol too). | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
I think it's reasonable to say that there will be times when 2 rax pressure FE isn't the best strat. That being said, it's completely viable, easy to execute, and sets you up for the standard midgame. Every top terran needs to know how to execute a pressure FE like this in TvP, and at the high level there are very few who can't. If you really want to expand your TvP repertoire, you'll start looking into other expansion builds off of 1 rax or 1 addoned rax, as well as a small selection of terran's all-ins including 1/1/1 and 3 rax. The real variations in TvP comes from the timing of your third base, your reactions to the protoss player's tech decisions, how quickly you get ghosts, how quickly you get upgrades and how quickly you get medivacs. | ||
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Danyl
Canada90 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On December 20 2011 19:26 Danyl wrote: High diamond terran here. While I consider my knowledge of the TvP match up to be pretty decent, I have zero clue how to stop a 4gate + Warp Prism all-in. Even when I've used a 2rax FE, scouted the build, and had all my units in my main to prevent being FF'd out, I still just die to this. Any tips on how to survive this all-in? One risk that all-in takes is that it cuts units early on to rush out both warp-gate and the warp prism, so if you pressure at an early non-standard timing with a 2-rax they will just die, or be forced to make units at their base that they really don't want to make right away. This should delay the drop until you actually have a decent number of units, by which point you're really just facing 4 units in a drop and a potential 4 units that they can warp in, which isn't really all that much to deal with. Now I realize it's very risky to attack into a 1 base protoss player (particularly on 3+ gates) with a 2-rax, but if you see 2 gas or the robo it can give you some indication that this might be a good idea. I have a lot of trouble with that build myself, but it seems that unless you are for some reason going for 3 rax you are very vulnerable to it if you just let them do what they want to. | ||
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
On December 20 2011 19:26 Danyl wrote: High diamond terran here. While I consider my knowledge of the TvP match up to be pretty decent, I have zero clue how to stop a 4gate + Warp Prism all-in. Even when I've used a 2rax FE, scouted the build, and had all my units in my main to prevent being FF'd out, I still just die to this. Any tips on how to survive this all-in? There are 2 parts to scouting this build that are both equally important. The first, you did, is simply knowing what build he is doing. The second part is seeing the warp prism just as it enters your air space (have patrolling marines around edges). As soon as you see the warp prism you need to focus it down asap. I generally focus it down even while my army takes a few hits from his (without the reinforcements in base you can quickly clean up then move back to front bunker). Assume you will need to pull most of your workers (you will lose a few but you should still be ahead...plus you'll eliminate the threat quickly). If he drops in your mineral line I like to a-move all my scvs until they surround the zealots then press hold position. Many times it glitches the zealots and they just twirl around (assuming your marines are shooting them). | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
One risk that all-in takes is that it cuts units early on to rush out both warp-gate and the warp prism, so if you pressure at an early non-standard timing with a 2-rax they will just die, No they won't. On small ramp maps, a sentry or two can keep the Toss safe the entire time. The only way that will work is if the Protoss doesn't make any units before warpgate (And that's like gold level toss for you), and he stockpiles resources. You can deal with 4 gate Warp Prism even with a 1 rax no gas FE. This all-in hits at around 8-9 minutes, depending on how all-in (and how good they know the build). You'll be contained on one base (hopefully with an expansion though) for a while, but your push afterwords will very likely outright kill the Protoss. Keep your base tight, get those bunkers down wherever you feel he might hit, and tech to reactor starport. If you manage to get medivacs out, you will be in a great position: Bio is already strong with stim, but add the medivacs and gateway units will have a hard time dealing with it. Basically: Start with 2 rax If you see 4 gate warp prism fast enough, then get the factory out. Otherwise 3rd rax (get the 3rd rax) Once you're economy is pumping off those double MULES on one base and full saturation, you'll want to get the fourth barracks. Once you have two medivacs and stim, you'll be wanting to push out. Optionally, you can try to make a viking and snipe the warp prism. Killing it will weaken his push even further, as he'll have no reinforcements for his stranded units. There are 2 parts to scouting this build that are both equally important. The first, you did, is simply knowing what build he is doing. The second part is seeing the warp prism just as it enters your air space (have patrolling marines around edges). As soon as you see the warp prism you need to focus it down asap. I generally focus it down even while my army takes a few hits from his (without the reinforcements in base you can quickly clean up then move back to front bunker). Assume you will need to pull most of your workers (you will lose a few but you should still be ahead...plus you'll eliminate the threat quickly). If he drops in your mineral line I like to a-move all my scvs until they surround the zealots then press hold position. Many times it glitches the zealots and they just twirl around (assuming your marines are shooting them). Great way to stop a warp prism if you catch it out of position. On the other hand, most protoss do try to take care of their warp prism, and if you try to focus it down, it doesn't die and he has units in your base, it's essentially a straight out GG. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On December 20 2011 20:25 DarkCore wrote: This all-in hits at around 8-9 minutes, depending on how all-in (and how good they know the build). You'll be contained on one base (hopefully with an expansion though) for a while, but your push afterwords will very likely outright kill the Protoss. Keep your base tight, get those bunkers down wherever you feel he might hit, and tech to reactor starport. If you manage to get medivacs out, you will be in a great position: Bio is already strong with stim, but add the medivacs and gateway units will have a hard time dealing with it. Nah this hits before 6:30 Mind you despite appalling micro and losing 22 SCV, I still won the game in the end. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On December 20 2011 19:26 Danyl wrote: High diamond terran here. While I consider my knowledge of the TvP match up to be pretty decent, I have zero clue how to stop a 4gate + Warp Prism all-in. Even when I've used a 2rax FE, scouted the build, and had all my units in my main to prevent being FF'd out, I still just die to this. Any tips on how to survive this all-in? As a general rule, Warp Prism 4gate is like a regular 4gate except that you have difficulty using your bunkers. It's hard to say without seeing a replay what exactly went wrong that caused you to lose. Did he manage to warp units into your main without you noticing? What kind of 2 rax FE did you use? etc. In theory, if it's scouted, warp prism 4gate should be as bad as 4gate when scouted. Keep on making units, take your 2nd gas, and get a starport asap. If you post a replay it'll be more clear what happened. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On December 20 2011 19:26 Danyl wrote: High diamond terran here. While I consider my knowledge of the TvP match up to be pretty decent, I have zero clue how to stop a 4gate + Warp Prism all-in. Even when I've used a 2rax FE, scouted the build, and had all my units in my main to prevent being FF'd out, I still just die to this. Any tips on how to survive this all-in? If you do a 1rax FE I'd advise to do this: Once you know that it's coming, you patrol marines around the edge of your base, once you see the warp prism you bring all your troops + half your scvs. Focus fire the warp prism with your marines and your scvs tank the zealot. If you're quick enough you can kill the warp prism or at least force a back after the 1st wave of warp-in. You just clean everything, and you're not behind, you should have 15ish scvs and 2 orbitals + a natural, you're way ahead if you don't lose immediately. On December 21 2011 04:59 Willzzz wrote: Nah this hits before 6:30 Mind you despite appalling micro and losing 22 SCV, I still won the game in the end. It depends how many probes he made but even with 10ish scvs it isn't loss if you've start to get stim/combat shield. Mules + bio is awesome against ununpgraded gateway units in a low economy game. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On December 20 2011 20:25 DarkCore wrote: No they won't. On small ramp maps, a sentry or two can keep the Toss safe the entire time. The only way that will work is if the Protoss doesn't make any units before warpgate (And that's like gold level toss for you), and he stockpiles resources. You can deal with 4 gate Warp Prism even with a 1 rax no gas FE. This all-in hits at around 8-9 minutes, depending on how all-in (and how good they know the build). You'll be contained on one base (hopefully with an expansion though) for a while, but your push afterwords will very likely outright kill the Protoss. Keep your base tight, get those bunkers down wherever you feel he might hit, and tech to reactor starport. If you manage to get medivacs out, you will be in a great position: Bio is already strong with stim, but add the medivacs and gateway units will have a hard time dealing with it. Basically: Start with 2 rax If you see 4 gate warp prism fast enough, then get the factory out. Otherwise 3rd rax (get the 3rd rax) Once you're economy is pumping off those double MULES on one base and full saturation, you'll want to get the fourth barracks. Once you have two medivacs and stim, you'll be wanting to push out. Optionally, you can try to make a viking and snipe the warp prism. Killing it will weaken his push even further, as he'll have no reinforcements for his stranded units. Great way to stop a warp prism if you catch it out of position. On the other hand, most protoss do try to take care of their warp prism, and if you try to focus it down, it doesn't die and he has units in your base, it's essentially a straight out GG. Often they don't make a sentry due to the gas cost, as it delays the rush quite a bit. If they want to forcefield a bunch of times that really cuts into the rush for them. I suppose more intelligent players would just delay their rush upon seeing a 2 rax, but most people simply act like they are doing a stalker/zealot 4gate with a warp prism thrown in, so you don't see sentries that much. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
Either way, anyone know a good FE build that's safe and can transition into Marine/Tank? | ||
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KORTOSS
Korea (South)6 Posts
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segfault-
United States7 Posts
On December 21 2011 10:18 KORTOSS wrote: What is the best way to punish a forge fast expanding Protoss? Can anyone tell me a strong timing against this opening? FFE should get crushed by a standard 2rax or any marauder pressure. FFE doesn't really work in TvP. | ||
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KORTOSS
Korea (South)6 Posts
On December 21 2011 10:23 segfault- wrote: FFE should get crushed by a standard 2rax or any marauder pressure. FFE doesn't really work in TvP. Today was the first time I played against it and I didn't know how to react to it. I saw that he was walling off his front with a forge and going for an early nexus. I then sent a few marines and marauders but by then, he had colossus up with a pretty decent sized gateway army. I'm guessing this means I should've attacked much sooner? Should I be pressuring asap with marauders as soon as I see this next time? | ||
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segfault-
United States7 Posts
On December 21 2011 10:29 KORTOSS wrote: Today was the first time I played against it and I didn't know how to react to it. I saw that he was walling off his front with a forge and going for an early nexus. I then sent a few marines and marauders but by then, he had colossus up with a pretty decent sized gateway army. I'm guessing this means I should've attacked much sooner? Should I be pressuring asap with marauders as soon as I see this next time? You probably won't ever see a FFE again...but 2rax or marauder pressure should be at 6:00 or earlier, way before any colossus or really any number of gateway units. | ||
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KORTOSS
Korea (South)6 Posts
On December 21 2011 11:19 segfault- wrote: You probably won't ever see a FFE again...but 2rax or marauder pressure should be at 6:00 or earlier, way before any colossus or really any number of gateway units. LOL alright thanks. I really appreciate it. | ||
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