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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On September 15 2011 14:52 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 14:26 Anihc wrote:On September 15 2011 12:48 eugalp wrote:On September 15 2011 10:40 bankai wrote:
For PvZ, does anyone know some simple scouting tips to tell what to look out for?? Im so lost as to when and what to scout!
E.g. like scout at 3mins --> look for gas/expansion
Scout at 5mins --> look for tech (like roach warren/banelings), confirm all-in is not coming
that kinda format/?? You might find this post by anihc helpful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230¤tpage=9#166 LOL he was the one who asked the question in that link hahaha...exactly  I appreciate that answer from Anihc previously, but my question was aimed a bit more general. That answer was in context to starting with a forge FE opening, and the common difficulty with lack of scouting ability early on. In that answer, Anihc says to pretty much scout all the time. While i understand the intent and thats probably true, im really struggling multi-tasking, so would like to start at the basic level and know "critical times" to scout, and for what exactly....just to limit what i need to look for at this stage and get used to it. Thats what my current question was supposed to address  Ohhh...i forgot to say as well that assume I am opening 2 gate FE into hallucinated phoenix
You waited how many months to ask the same question? This forum was basically made to help players :p
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On September 15 2011 18:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 18:49 Latedi wrote:On September 15 2011 16:45 Teoita wrote:On September 15 2011 10:39 bankai wrote:For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first. Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice)  I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance' Any opening should be safe vs 3rax and be able to expand against it with good forcefields; i personally perefer 3gate expand, eventually adding a 4th gate if their expansion is super late, but that's personal preference. Of course if he's 3raxing you don't want to get the two forges, just throw down an additional gate and you should be fine; after you hold his push get a couple of ranged colossi and go finish him off. Yes, as long as you see it coming you can be safe. However if you are going for 1gate robo you might need to add additional gates before you expand, or you could expand and cut probes for a while. the timing should be around 8:30 if not this link is outdated. I do not recommend going colossus without scouting though, as terran might be doing something crazy to come back. I do agree that it is good as you already have a robo but you should be using observers to scout his base first. And remember some players just push again later with about the same amount of units. Some 3rax variations are faster than that; i remember seeing MKP trying to 3rax Huk in the GSTL, and he arrived at huk's nat at around 7.00 (huk held it off with a 1gate fe so it's worth checking out if you have trouble vs 3rax). He mentioned specifically that he has trouble vs players that expand behind it against his robo opening (which is super common up to diamond or so), hence my suggestion to go colossus
Aah I see. I don't understand this opening anymore as no one does it in masters. I encouter it maybe once per 100 games and all the rest of my PvTs are against 1-1-1 :< I have to say though, going blind 3gate 2gas pressure/all in has given me a lot of free wins. So my advice is mostly based on (old) experience.
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Help with PvZ
I have recently only been having success with:
[G] PvZ -- Ultimate Solution: Warp Prisms - 60+% win rate for me! Great! But I am a one trick pony.
[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16 - Great build, but I feel like it's pretty hard to execute since my play can be inconsistent.
[G] PvZ: guide to an imbalanced special tactic - Gimmicky build that is great to use on ladder once in awhile, but does not transition to anything.
Are there any other builds that are very good in the current state of game? I am in mid-master (#14) and struggle the most with PvZ if I don't use Noumena's Warp prism strat.
From my personal experience I have a lot of trouble putting pressure cost effectively on the zerg if I 3g expand and always find myself behind. I am only familiar with the oldschool 3g sentry expand, so I end up with quite a few sentries that cannot pressure against speedling expand, and unfortunately a sentry/stalker early-mid game army always gets crushed by ling/infestor or roach/infestor in my experience.
I read all around that the 3g expand is still viable, is this true? Am I not supposed to make as many sentries? From what I am used to, 3g expand transitions into some 6-7 gate timing attack at 10min-ish, or some 5 gate variation (maybe with a robo) a minute or two earlier. I just feel like all the Zerg's I play now are more than prepared for my attack. They seem to start their 3rd very early and make just enough speedlings so that moving out of my base with a sentry-heavy army would be very risky.
Any advice would be appreciated, especially with replays!
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United States7483 Posts
On September 16 2011 02:06 terranmoccasin wrote:Help with PvZ I have recently only been having success with: [G] PvZ -- Ultimate Solution: Warp Prisms - 60+% win rate for me! Great! But I am a one trick pony.[G] PvZ 2 Gate FE 10-16 - Great build, but I feel like it's pretty hard to execute since my play can be inconsistent.[G] PvZ: guide to an imbalanced special tactic - Gimmicky build that is great to use on ladder once in awhile, but does not transition to anything.Are there any other builds that are very good in the current state of game? I am in mid-master (#14) and struggle the most with PvZ if I don't use Noumena's Warp prism strat. From my personal experience I have a lot of trouble putting pressure cost effectively on the zerg if I 3g expand and always find myself behind. I am only familiar with the oldschool 3g sentry expand, so I end up with quite a few sentries that cannot pressure against speedling expand, and unfortunately a sentry/stalker early-mid game army always gets crushed by ling/infestor or roach/infestor in my experience. I read all around that the 3g expand is still viable, is this true? Am I not supposed to make as many sentries? From what I am used to, 3g expand transitions into some 6-7 gate timing attack at 10min-ish, or some 5 gate variation (maybe with a robo) a minute or two earlier. I just feel like all the Zerg's I play now are more than prepared for my attack. They seem to start their 3rd very early and make just enough speedlings so that moving out of my base with a sentry-heavy army would be very risky. Any advice would be appreciated, especially with replays!
Don't 3 gate expand, due to the warp gate nerf a while back, by the time it's safe to take the expansion you're already behind. Instead, do a FFE or some variant of a sentry expand that gets the expansion quicker (like a 2 gate expand or something). The only alternative is to do a risky build right after the 3 gate expand to deal damage and bring parity back to the match, like DT's.
Yes, 3 gate expand is still technically viable, you don't die immediately or anything, but it takes longer to get the nexus down because warp gates finish later, so zerg is more ahead than he used to be. Unless you are positive you are better than your opponent by a good deal and want to play safe and edge him out later, don't 3 gate expand.
I've been having a lot of success with a FFE opening or a 2 gate sentry expand with chrono boost on the gateways, not on warp gate.
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In Late Game is it worth it to go Mother-ship? or does the answer corrilate to what your opponent has?
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On September 16 2011 02:17 Sodaplay111 wrote:
In Late Game is it worth it to go Mother-ship? or does the answer corrilate to what your opponent has?
Yeah it is a lot of the time. I'd say in PvT it's worst due to how common a group of vikings are.
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On September 16 2011 02:26 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 02:17 Sodaplay111 wrote:
In Late Game is it worth it to go Mother-ship? or does the answer corrilate to what your opponent has? If you've got enough time and resources to comfortably build a mothership then you probably can just go kill 'em...
Not really, late game both armies at max supply happen fairly frequently in PvZ and PvT. Mothership is definitely worth it in PvZ, not so much in PvT because of how easily they are negated by vikings and ghosts. PvP is debatable because of how uncommon late game is.
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Late game PvZ on Antiga. I go 3 gate expo get on 3 bases as fast as possible, go for warp prism play, deny his 4 base for a long long time we have a 200 vs 200 confrontation with 3 bases vs 3 bases he get out ahead with ling/broodlord/infestor vs stalker/colossus/ht/zea but I still was OKISH even with infestors raping my stalkers and not letting me blink under his BL. I start to warp more stalkers to deal with the 4-3 broodlord that he had left, he goes for a sudden tech switch do ultra ling and I lose. In the middle of the confrontation he get his 4 and I just can't get mine as he can easily deny it since Antiga isn't a 'huge' map for his lings to kill it. His army just maxed out so, so, so fast that I wasn't able to respond to his ultra tech switch.
I am not really worried about that game since I could have micro maybe a little bit better and I could've more warpgates to remax fasters but that made me wonder is really possible to play PvZ without any timing hardcore pressure? Like some stalker timing, robo timing, 6 gate timing? I really tried to go for a late game PvZ without any srs bss battle by stopping his bases with warp prism but late game Z is just so strong unless you hit him HARD in mid game. The game I am talking about I actually denied his 4 base for longer than I expected. Someone better than him would eventually stop my warp prism harass and be one base ahead of me.
Another way to see it is that I didn't have the perfect army composition. Since people usually thinks 200 p vs 200 z should just rape z or at least make P be ahead which didn't happened in my game. He had something like 10 infestors full mana, 8 BL and 70 lings against my 4-5 colossus + 4 full mana HT that barely participate on the battle cause of FG and his insane range that kept me without feedbacking, some stalkers and some zeas. Theorycrafting hard is there any 200 army composition from Z that beats any 200 p with large advantage?
Or maybe I am just mad as shit that I lost that game after denying his 4 base for 6 years cause of a little missmicro. But I am not sure right now. He just looked like untouchable with his infestor BL army.
Medium-high masters here.
Thank you for you patience and sorry for some miss written thingies since english isn't my primary language. Sorry if I am just raging hard too.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 16 2011 05:34 Foxwolf wrote:Late game PvZ on Antiga. I go 3 gate expo get on 3 bases as fast as possible, go for warp prism play, deny his 4 base for a long long time we have a 200 vs 200 confrontation with 3 bases vs 3 bases he get out ahead with ling/broodlord/infestor vs stalker/colossus/ht/zea but I still was OKISH even with infestors raping my stalkers and not letting me blink under his BL. I start to warp more stalkers to deal with the 4-3 broodlord that he had left, he goes for a sudden tech switch do ultra ling and I lose. In the middle of the confrontation he get his 4 and I just can't get mine as he can easily deny it since Antiga isn't a 'huge' map for his lings to kill it. His army just maxed out so, so, so fast that I wasn't able to respond to his ultra tech switch. I am not really worried about that game since I could have micro maybe a little bit better and I could've more warpgates to remax fasters but that made me wonder is really possible to play PvZ without any timing hardcore pressure? Like some stalker timing, robo timing, 6 gate timing? I really tried to go for a late game PvZ without any srs bss battle by stopping his bases with warp prism but late game Z is just so strong unless you hit him HARD in mid game. The game I am talking about I actually denied his 4 base for longer than I expected. Someone better than him would eventually stop my warp prism harass and be one base ahead of me. Another way to see it is that I didn't have the perfect army composition. Since people usually thinks 200 p vs 200 z should just rape z or at least make P be ahead which didn't happened in my game. He had something like 10 infestors full mana, 8 BL and 70 lings against my 4-5 colossus + 4 full mana HT that barely participate on the battle cause of FG and his insane range that kept me without feedbacking, some stalkers and some zeas. Theorycrafting hard is there any 200 army composition from Z that beats any 200 p with large advantage? Or maybe I am just mad as shit that I lost that game after denying his 4 base for 6 years cause of a little missmicro. But I am not sure right now. He just looked like untouchable with his infestor BL army. Medium-high masters here. Thank you for you patience and sorry for some miss written thingies since english isn't my primary language. Sorry if I am just raging hard too.
You should really attach the replay where you lost. Without it, people can only give general advice and we're probably missing the reason you lost.
I do have some general tips, however about late game 200/200 fights vs infestor/bl/ling
1. Zealots are useless in those types of fights, and you should try to get rid of them as much as possible.
2. An ideal composition would archon/collosi/templar/stalker.
3. Upgrades matter a lot. Unlike vs roach/hydra/infestor/corruptor, armor/shield upgrades matter a lot. Lings and broodlings are both affected by armor a lot and you can't use forcefields/defensive blinks as your armor as you would versus that composition.
4. After he gets a critical mass of broodlords, 10+, it can be close to impossible to engage this army directly. Instead, you'll have to abuse the immobility of the composition and go for basetrades.
5. Generally, voidray switches are only good if you can catch your opponent offguard. If he scouts it, he can get enough infestor/corruptor to hold off voidrays easily.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 16 2011 04:35 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 02:26 Sated wrote:On September 16 2011 02:17 Sodaplay111 wrote:
In Late Game is it worth it to go Mother-ship? or does the answer corrilate to what your opponent has? If you've got enough time and resources to comfortably build a mothership then you probably can just go kill 'em... Not really, late game both armies at max supply happen fairly frequently in PvZ and PvT. Mothership is definitely worth it in PvZ, not so much in PvT because of how easily they are negated by vikings and ghosts. PvP is debatable because of how uncommon late game is.
I find motherships really good in lategame colossus wars because if you can get a vortex off his colossi are clumped up while yours aren't, so you usually win the engagement.
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On September 16 2011 02:17 Sodaplay111 wrote:
In Late Game is it worth it to go Mother-ship? or does the answer corrilate to what your opponent has?
I know iStime likes to go mothership PvZ when taking his 4th base. I really think that's a smart idea for a few reasons.
1. gets you star gate tech which you basically needs vs hive tech anyways.
2. Is powerful for its supply cost which is the most constraining factor in a maxed vs maxed situation
3. Zerg's mobile detection is easily snipe-able
4. vortex is really good
Plus who does not feel like a giant BAMF seeing 4 collosi 6 archons a few dozen blink stalkers and Motherfucking Mofoship marching down the field? I'll tell you who, the zerg you are marching towards
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On September 16 2011 06:09 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:34 Foxwolf wrote:Late game PvZ on Antiga. I go 3 gate expo get on 3 bases as fast as possible, go for warp prism play, deny his 4 base for a long long time we have a 200 vs 200 confrontation with 3 bases vs 3 bases he get out ahead with ling/broodlord/infestor vs stalker/colossus/ht/zea but I still was OKISH even with infestors raping my stalkers and not letting me blink under his BL. I start to warp more stalkers to deal with the 4-3 broodlord that he had left, he goes for a sudden tech switch do ultra ling and I lose. In the middle of the confrontation he get his 4 and I just can't get mine as he can easily deny it since Antiga isn't a 'huge' map for his lings to kill it. His army just maxed out so, so, so fast that I wasn't able to respond to his ultra tech switch. I am not really worried about that game since I could have micro maybe a little bit better and I could've more warpgates to remax fasters but that made me wonder is really possible to play PvZ without any timing hardcore pressure? Like some stalker timing, robo timing, 6 gate timing? I really tried to go for a late game PvZ without any srs bss battle by stopping his bases with warp prism but late game Z is just so strong unless you hit him HARD in mid game. The game I am talking about I actually denied his 4 base for longer than I expected. Someone better than him would eventually stop my warp prism harass and be one base ahead of me. Another way to see it is that I didn't have the perfect army composition. Since people usually thinks 200 p vs 200 z should just rape z or at least make P be ahead which didn't happened in my game. He had something like 10 infestors full mana, 8 BL and 70 lings against my 4-5 colossus + 4 full mana HT that barely participate on the battle cause of FG and his insane range that kept me without feedbacking, some stalkers and some zeas. Theorycrafting hard is there any 200 army composition from Z that beats any 200 p with large advantage? Or maybe I am just mad as shit that I lost that game after denying his 4 base for 6 years cause of a little missmicro. But I am not sure right now. He just looked like untouchable with his infestor BL army. Medium-high masters here. Thank you for you patience and sorry for some miss written thingies since english isn't my primary language. Sorry if I am just raging hard too. You should really attach the replay where you lost. Without it, people can only give general advice and we're probably missing the reason you lost. I do have some general tips, however about late game 200/200 fights vs infestor/bl/ling 1. Zealots are useless in those types of fights, and you should try to get rid of them as much as possible. 2. An ideal composition would archon/collosi/templar/stalker. 3. Upgrades matter a lot. Unlike vs roach/hydra/infestor/corruptor, armor/shield upgrades matter a lot. Lings and broodlings are both affected by armor a lot and you can't use forcefields/defensive blinks as your armor as you would versus that composition. 4. After he gets a critical mass of broodlords, 10+, it can be close to impossible to engage this army directly. Instead, you'll have to abuse the immobility of the composition and go for basetrades. 5. Generally, voidray switches are only good if you can catch your opponent offguard. If he scouts it, he can get enough infestor/corruptor to hold off voidrays easily.
Agreed except for some comments on your #4 + 5 - protoss air actually dominates zerg including the dreaded infestor/bl/corruptor combo, as long as you have supporting ht/archon and/or a mothership.
Of course, getting mass protoss air is hard and it's not something you can rush to. Generally I max on a standard colossus army, and slowly add in mothership and carriers to my army and phase out gateway units (zealot/stalkers/sentry) as engagements occur. Why carrier and not void ray? Void ray is better against corruptor than carriers, but infestors counter void rays much harder. Carriers laugh at infestors, and you'll have other units that can take care of corruptors (whereas not many other units counter infestors).
Also you shouldn't be satisfied with 3 bases (I know Antiga can be a really hard map to get a 4th base on though). That's not enough gas for you. Always keep expanding, the way I play PvZ is that as soon as I secure an additional base, my immediate goal is to secure another one. You'll have tons of extra minerals so just use it on mass cannons.
I know that I'm talking about a completely different PvZ style that needs more detailed explanation but my purpose here is to just encourage players to:
1) Take more than 3 bases.
2) Experiment with motherships and carriers in PvZ, they are awesome units
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On September 15 2011 19:03 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 18:54 Teoita wrote:On September 15 2011 18:49 Latedi wrote:On September 15 2011 16:45 Teoita wrote:On September 15 2011 10:39 bankai wrote:For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first. Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice) I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance' Any opening should be safe vs 3rax and be able to expand against it with good forcefields; i personally perefer 3gate expand, eventually adding a 4th gate if their expansion is super late, but that's personal preference. Of course if he's 3raxing you don't want to get the two forges, just throw down an additional gate and you should be fine; after you hold his push get a couple of ranged colossi and go finish him off. Yes, as long as you see it coming you can be safe. However if you are going for 1gate robo you might need to add additional gates before you expand, or you could expand and cut probes for a while. the timing should be around 8:30 if not this link is outdated. I do not recommend going colossus without scouting though, as terran might be doing something crazy to come back. I do agree that it is good as you already have a robo but you should be using observers to scout his base first. And remember some players just push again later with about the same amount of units. Some 3rax variations are faster than that; i remember seeing MKP trying to 3rax Huk in the GSTL, and he arrived at huk's nat at around 7.00 (huk held it off with a 1gate fe so it's worth checking out if you have trouble vs 3rax). He mentioned specifically that he has trouble vs players that expand behind it against his robo opening (which is super common up to diamond or so), hence my suggestion to go colossus Aah I see. I don't understand this opening anymore as no one does it in masters. I encouter it maybe once per 100 games and all the rest of my PvTs are against 1-1-1 :< I have to say though, going blind 3gate 2gas pressure/all in has given me a lot of free wins. So my advice is mostly based on (old) experience.
Thanks for all the really helpful advice!
For this MKP vs Huk match, where can I download that replay?
I think with ppl saying that you need more units that u do upgrades against early heavy rax pressure, im bit confused about tyler's double forge build. Normally with that build you get early upgrades as soon as the expansion is down....but ppl are saying if terran pressures u heavily with 3rax/4rax then defer the upgrades and go Colossus?? is that right?
I must be unlucky (or lucky)...I tend to get 50% 1-1-1 and the other is 2rax/3rax openers!
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On September 15 2011 19:01 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 14:52 bankai wrote:On September 15 2011 14:26 Anihc wrote:On September 15 2011 12:48 eugalp wrote:On September 15 2011 10:40 bankai wrote:
For PvZ, does anyone know some simple scouting tips to tell what to look out for?? Im so lost as to when and what to scout!
E.g. like scout at 3mins --> look for gas/expansion
Scout at 5mins --> look for tech (like roach warren/banelings), confirm all-in is not coming
that kinda format/?? You might find this post by anihc helpful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230¤tpage=9#166 LOL he was the one who asked the question in that link hahaha...exactly I appreciate that answer from Anihc previously, but my question was aimed a bit more general. That answer was in context to starting with a forge FE opening, and the common difficulty with lack of scouting ability early on. In that answer, Anihc says to pretty much scout all the time. While i understand the intent and thats probably true, im really struggling multi-tasking, so would like to start at the basic level and know "critical times" to scout, and for what exactly....just to limit what i need to look for at this stage and get used to it. Thats what my current question was supposed to address Ohhh...i forgot to say as well that assume I am opening 2 gate FE into hallucinated phoenix You waited how many months to ask the same question? This forum was basically made to help players :p
hehe...yeah kinda forgot about this thread but its really helpful
sooo was wondering if i cud get like a "dummies guide to scouting zerg" answer?? Just some critical times to scout and wat exactly im looking for at those times....that would help ease my multitasking a bit!
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What's the best unit composition to handle MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking?
I've been running into this A LOT on the ladder and it always steamrolls me. I beat it once, but only because I outmacroed the Terran hardcore near the end of the game. (Like 7base vs. 3) and he was still trading even with my armies because of his stutter step and ghost control.
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On September 16 2011 15:03 maasai_ wrote:
What's the best unit composition to handle MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking?
I've been running into this A LOT on the ladder and it always steamrolls me. I beat it once, but only because I outmacroed the Terran hardcore near the end of the game. (Like 7base vs. 3) and he was still trading even with my armies because of his stutter step and ghost control.
Need replay, sounds like you're doing something else wrong (like having weaker macro than your opponent).
Generally you want to have compositions of pure zealot/archon to make his vikings useless, and then when he stops viking production and lands his vikings thinking they're useless, then you go dual or triple robo colossus and switch to colossus/stalker/zealot. Also add in HTs to either composition if you're comfortable with additional micro, but even I don't like using HT because I'd rather spend the extra actions on macro and making more units.
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I'm getting a little confused about PvP lately, hopefully somebody can help me
This is what I've been doing in PvP:
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I tend to open up with a 3 stalker rush, and transition into blink from there. If I scout that he is going Robo, I generally take an expansion somewhere else on the map (technically a ninja expand, but I don't really care if he finds it).
After I poke his ramp with my blink stalkers, and see if he was being greedy, or if he went a tech route I can kill (ie - he skipped his immortal, or went air), this is where I usually find out whether he went Robo or not, although sometimes I manage to find out sooner.
At this point, I put down a forge, start researching charge, and stop making stalkers. I put a cannon down at each base, and from here, I just keep making zealots. This means I have around 10-12 stalkers total, and I don't make any more for the rest of the game.
While I make my charge zealots, I get +1 attack, and get a templar archives, since I have plenty of gas, and then make several archons.
EDIT: Obviously, I do none of this if I scout an air build.
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My questions about this are as follows:
1. Is this viable, and if not, what is wrong with it?
2. Is it a good idea to stop making blink stalkers in this way?
3. What is this not viable against?
4. Should I add a Robo at any point? This is something I haven't been doing, although I'm around mid-high diamond, and it seems to be working for me. I only add a Robo if my opponent goes for DTs, so that I can actually fight, otherwise, there are cannons where important.
5. What is the best time to attack somebody going colossus?
6. Is it a good idea to do this against blink stalkers (ie a blink vs blink situation), or do you think sacrificing the map control by stopping making stalkers isn't worth it?
7. If I do choose to go charge zealots, how do I deal with the situation where he is in a position to blink into my main, but not close to my ramp?
8. I don't tend to blink into my opponents main very often, if at all. Is it worth investing in a Robo just for the capability of doing this?
9. Is it worth attacking a Robo user without at least one archon, or do you think the possiblity of forcefields make it too dangerous?
10. Is there any giveaway signs somebody is going Robo, so that I can find out before I do my blink attack? The only thing I worry about when going blink is the possibility of DTs.
11. How many stalkers should I have when I do my blink timing? I'm curious whether I'm doing it right.
12. Should I be getting my archons faster? I tend to get them all at once, but after I have a decent amount of zealots. Do I need them sooner than this, or is this situational? And if it is situational, what situations do I need them faster?
If anyone can answer these questions, or give me any advice, I'd really appreciate it
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On September 16 2011 15:13 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 15:03 maasai_ wrote:
What's the best unit composition to handle MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking?
I've been running into this A LOT on the ladder and it always steamrolls me. I beat it once, but only because I outmacroed the Terran hardcore near the end of the game. (Like 7base vs. 3) and he was still trading even with my armies because of his stutter step and ghost control. Need replay, sounds like you're doing something else wrong (like having weaker macro than your opponent). Generally you want to have compositions of pure zealot/archon to make his vikings useless, and then when he stops viking production and lands his vikings thinking they're useless, then you go dual or triple robo colossus and switch to colossus/stalker/zealot. Also add in HTs to either composition if you're comfortable with additional micro, but even I don't like using HT because I'd rather spend the extra actions on macro and making more units.
I understand there are flaws in my game-play, but that's not entirely relevant to my question. I'm my own harshest critic and am absolutely obsessed with fixing the tiniest of mistakes/non-optimal gameplay. However, I'm purely interested in the theorycrafting of an army composition that is cost effective against MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking.
With proper army control by the Terran I feel like the zealot/archon composition is absolute trash. EMPs negate Archons and if there are no Collossus the Terran will land his vikings, which do amazing DPS against the zealots (and can be microed quite well by changing modes) and MarauderGhost (especially in a large ball) kite zealots with minimal losses.
The tech switch to Collossus is very difficult on equal bases with Terran, because if I have the income to go 3robo Col. they're likely constantly scanning my tech+army and 2/3starports w/reactor can easily replenish enough vikings to negate even 3 robo Col.
I've run into the problem with HTs being ineffective due to the friendly damage of storm during engagements causing a TON of damage to my zealot after being EMPed, and trying to storm snipe causes the Terran to place his vikings out around his units to spot for HTs coming in for suicide storms. They then get sniped by a marauder/ghost before doing anything effective.
I'm simply at a total loss of what I can do against this army comp. in a cost effective manner against a competent opponent, but thanks for your advice. <3 Do you have specific ratios for your suggested unit comps? Perhaps I'm too heavy in one unit or another.
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On September 16 2011 15:54 Chelch wrote:I'm getting a little confused about PvP lately, hopefully somebody can help me This is what I've been doing in PvP: _____ I tend to open up with a 3 stalker rush, and transition into blink from there. If I scout that he is going Robo, I generally take an expansion somewhere else on the map (technically a ninja expand, but I don't really care if he finds it). After I poke his ramp with my blink stalkers, and see if he was being greedy, or if he went a tech route I can kill (ie - he skipped his immortal, or went air), this is where I usually find out whether he went Robo or not, although sometimes I manage to find out sooner. At this point, I put down a forge, start researching charge, and stop making stalkers. I put a cannon down at each base, and from here, I just keep making zealots. This means I have around 10-12 stalkers total, and I don't make any more for the rest of the game. While I make my charge zealots, I get +1 attack, and get a templar archives, since I have plenty of gas, and then make several archons. EDIT: Obviously, I do none of this if I scout an air build. _____ My questions about this are as follows: 1. Is this viable, and if not, what is wrong with it? 2. Is it a good idea to stop making blink stalkers in this way? 3. What is this not viable against? 4. Should I add a Robo at any point? This is something I haven't been doing, although I'm around mid-high diamond, and it seems to be working for me. I only add a Robo if my opponent goes for DTs, so that I can actually fight, otherwise, there are cannons where important. 5. What is the best time to attack somebody going colossus? 6. Is it a good idea to do this against blink stalkers (ie a blink vs blink situation), or do you think sacrificing the map control by stopping making stalkers isn't worth it? 7. If I do choose to go charge zealots, how do I deal with the situation where he is in a position to blink into my main, but not close to my ramp? 8. I don't tend to blink into my opponents main very often, if at all. Is it worth investing in a Robo just for the capability of doing this? 9. Is it worth attacking a Robo user without at least one archon, or do you think the possiblity of forcefields make it too dangerous? 10. Is there any giveaway signs somebody is going Robo, so that I can find out before I do my blink attack? The only thing I worry about when going blink is the possibility of DTs. 11. How many stalkers should I have when I do my blink timing? I'm curious whether I'm doing it right. 12. Should I be getting my archons faster? I tend to get them all at once, but after I have a decent amount of zealots. Do I need them sooner than this, or is this situational? And if it is situational, what situations do I need them faster? If anyone can answer these questions, or give me any advice, I'd really appreciate it
Wow that's a lot of questions lol. I used to do almost exactly what you're doing now, except now I've switched to robo twilight instead of just twilight without robo. I've found it to be a much more versatile build. Check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772, it's one of the better guides out there.
1. It is completely viable. However, I don't think ninja expo is necessary, just take your nat. First of all it's more economical (no travel time), ninja expo is bad against another player who goes blink, and the only benefit of a ninja expo which is a base trade situation, is actually not that great because oftentimes you end up with just your ninja expo that has a few pylons and gateways, but it can't do much before your opponent's army finishes off your main and just kills your expo as well (since you've just lost over half your pylons and all of your tech).
2. Yes. But I'd keep 12 stalkers (1 shot opponent stalker), and remake them if I lose them. It's important to keep those stalkers alive to quickly kill off opponent colossus when the engagement occurs.
3. See 1.
4. Personal preference. I've found that the obs is really helpful, it's much easier to blink into opponent's base with an obs than without.
5. Whenever they move out. If they don't and take their nat, take a 3rd or see if you can kill it if he takes it late and you already have big army/eco lead.
6. Eventually yes. But I'd wait until I have a few more stalkers, if you try to get charge too fast you can easily lose to just a blink stalker attack before charge finishes.
7. ? What's the issue here? Just keep zealots in main (you have archon right to break ramp FF)?
8. Yes, see 4.
9. Situational, if you're attacking in an open field then no, if you're attacking at a choke then you really do need to wait for archon.
10. Nope. Again this is another reason why I've switched to robo twilight now.
11. It varies... just watch any high lvl PvP rep for an idea.
12. Doesn't really matter.
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EPT
