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On September 14 2011 19:09 DgSensei wrote:Hello everyone. I'd like your help in pvz.In this replay i do a 3 gate sentry exp cause i saw the zerg's early gas.However, by the time i have a "safe" number of sentries to push out and pressure he already is 20 drones ahead.Also, a bit later i try to pressure his 3rd but he already is 40 supply ahead...Could you plz help and point out any flaws in my play?Thanks in advance. PvZ Xel Naga
Help anyone??Thanx 
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:15 DgSensei wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:09 DgSensei wrote:Hello everyone. I'd like your help in pvz.In this replay i do a 3 gate sentry exp cause i saw the zerg's early gas.However, by the time i have a "safe" number of sentries to push out and pressure he already is 20 drones ahead.Also, a bit later i try to pressure his 3rd but he already is 40 supply ahead...Could you plz help and point out any flaws in my play?Thanks in advance. PvZ Xel Naga Help anyone??Thanx
The reason you end up so far behind is mostly because you cut probes so heavily. If you look at the replay, after you expand you just don't make enough probes; you want to have almost constant production. Sentry expand is a very passive build and you risk being behind a zerg, especially if you make 3 gates rather than 1 or 2 (i prefer 2 vs a speedling expand) and you pushed at the right times, so what happened in your game is to be expected, but it was magnified a LOT by your lack of probe production.
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On September 14 2011 20:02 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:17 Immersion_ wrote:On September 14 2011 19:04 Latedi wrote:On September 14 2011 16:09 Anihc wrote:On September 13 2011 14:23 hzflank wrote:On September 13 2011 12:34 friendo wrote:
in PvZ, when should I try for a zealot-archon composition and when should try for a colossus ball?
putting it another way, what zerg compositions are strong or weak versus zealot-archo or colossus ball? Zealot/Archon is not as strong as a standard colossus army. But archons come much earlier due to warpgates, so if you want to attack soon go archons, if you want to wait go colossi. The obvious except is if you open stargate and they make too many hydralisks. Then you always want to go for collosi. This is incorrect. While it is true that you can get archons faster than you can get colossus, attacking earlier is not why you would go chargelot/archon over colossus. Also, chargelot/archon is pretty good against hydras or hydra/ling, and many players have successfully done phoenix or void ray into chargelot/archon builds (off the top of my head see trickster vs DRG on shakuras from MLG raleigh, kiwikaki vs strifecro on crevasse from IPL arena). Latedi had a better answer below, which is that zealot/archon is great against infestor/ling and really bad against any composition that contains roaches. Standard colossus is decent against everything. For some reason lots of people think infestors counter colossus but I have found the opposite to be true... It all comes down to if they can neural your colossi or not. Luckily it won't be possible next patch but for now you have to either step back with your colossi or have good forcefields. This is my conclusion after dying to neural parasite several time ._. How do you conter infestors with colossi? I'd be happy to hear if there are other ways. Edit: Wouldn't storm be better than archons if you force hydras? :o I'm not confident enough with that PvZ style to say anything. If you have a lot of collossi the best way is to keep them all close to each other, this means they can cover each other against neural, and target down infestors quickly that are NPing the others. If you don't have a lot of collossi then you should have some Hts in ur comp or he shouldn't have too many infestors! Don't ball up your army so hard if your Colossus are getting neural'd and stuff. I usually keep my Colossus back from my main army, blink stalkers can quickly blink back if they need to cover the Colossus and can blink into Infestors that are neural parasiting. Also, keeping everything spread out makes you less susceptible to fungal growth. Just make sure you use forcefields to protect your army from lings and it'll work better than balling up so hard. (I can't belive I only just worked this out, by the way. Balling up my army too much, massive bad habit. Gotta abuse that S key to stop them doing it, like magic-boxing Colossi haha!) EDIT: Show nested quote +I had a question regarding 2-rax pressure from Terran.
I'm a high Gold player, so I've mostly been matched with Platinum and Gold players this season, and most terrans I've played against open 2rax. Now, in terms of my engagement, if I open 2gate robo or 3 gate expand, should I draw their army out in the open to FF then send my zealots in to tank? I know going up my ramp is a last resort and is probably the worst thing I can do.
Also, is a 1gate FE viable vs that kind of build or am I better off sticking to a 3gate expand or 2gate robo expand? It's possible to hold a 1gate FE against a Terran 2rax so long as you know it is coming and prepare enough units for it. I usually use HuK's 1gate FE when I'm planning to 1gate FE and the swell of Stalkers you get early on deals with bio units from a 2rax pressure pretty comfortably. Once you've killed their push, you can put pressure back on them and deny their expansion for a while since they won't have Siege Tanks or Medivacs out to push out or drop you anytime soon.
Well yes my post just said ball up the collossi, balling up your stalkers is rather silly!
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On September 15 2011 00:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:15 DgSensei wrote:On September 14 2011 19:09 DgSensei wrote:Hello everyone. I'd like your help in pvz.In this replay i do a 3 gate sentry exp cause i saw the zerg's early gas.However, by the time i have a "safe" number of sentries to push out and pressure he already is 20 drones ahead.Also, a bit later i try to pressure his 3rd but he already is 40 supply ahead...Could you plz help and point out any flaws in my play?Thanks in advance. PvZ Xel Naga Help anyone??Thanx The reason you end up so far behind is mostly because you cut probes so heavily. If you look at the replay, after you expand you just don't make enough probes; you want to have almost constant production. Sentry expand is a very passive build and you risk being behind a zerg, especially if you make 3 gates rather than 1 or 2 (i prefer 2 vs a speedling expand) and you pushed at the right times, so what happened in your game is to be expected, but it was magnified a LOT by your lack of probe production.
Thank you.I have been trying to play more aggresively in general but i find that there is a gap between 6 and 8 minutes where you can do nothing to pressure the zerg.Well nothing that i know of at least ^^
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Why do ppl build so few zealots midgame in PvZ? It seems to me that every Z plays with lings all game long and stalkers suck against them
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On September 15 2011 02:50 danib0y wrote:
Why do ppl build so few zealots midgame in PvZ? It seems to me that every Z plays with lings all game long and stalkers suck against them
Lings can run away and almost never engage zealots if the can't get a perfect surround. And with equal Protoss weapons to Zerg carpace upgrades, 4 lings will kill a zealot. Also, roaches, thousands of them.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 15 2011 02:50 danib0y wrote:
Why do ppl build so few zealots midgame in PvZ? It seems to me that every Z plays with lings all game long and stalkers suck against them
Zealots tend to suck against everything z does in the midgame: infestors root them in place so they do nothing, and they are cost inefficient vs roaches.
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On September 15 2011 03:51 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 02:50 danib0y wrote:
Why do ppl build so few zealots midgame in PvZ? It seems to me that every Z plays with lings all game long and stalkers suck against them Zealots tend to suck against everything z does in the midgame: infestors root them in place so they do nothing, and they are cost inefficient vs roaches.
It can work with either a archon/zealot mid game timing push (very narrow window for this one) or as follow up to air and forge FE, most notably used my Sage on TDA iirc. Other than that i can't imagine zealots being used for something else then harassement or being used in the army if the zerg goes heavy with the lings. They are quite good against ultras late game though.
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For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first.
Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice) 
I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance' 
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For PvZ, does anyone know some simple scouting tips to tell what to look out for?? Im so lost as to when and what to scout!
E.g. like scout at 3mins --> look for gas/expansion
Scout at 5mins --> look for tech (like roach warren/banelings), confirm all-in is not coming
that kinda format/??
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On September 15 2011 10:40 bankai wrote:
For PvZ, does anyone know some simple scouting tips to tell what to look out for?? Im so lost as to when and what to scout!
E.g. like scout at 3mins --> look for gas/expansion
Scout at 5mins --> look for tech (like roach warren/banelings), confirm all-in is not coming
that kinda format/??
You might find this post by anihc helpful:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230¤tpage=9#166
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I'm having a lot of trouble with stim/conc timing pushes/3 rax plus aggression. Can you hold these terran builds with a 1 gate FE? I feel like I never can. Even with forcefields they still have double the units I do. And with stim and conc my army is even weaker. I usually lose my expo, terran expos behind the push and then I basically play behind from there.
I think part of the problem is I feel like I can never gather enough scouting info vs a T. I almost always see a gas and a rax before my probe dies which could also be a 111. Sometimes I can scout an addon or additional rax. If the terran has a tech lab and more than 1 rax up should I just expect early aggression and 3 gate expand instead?
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On September 15 2011 12:57 flipstorm wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble with stim/conc timing pushes/3 rax plus aggression. Can you hold these terran builds with a 1 gate FE? I feel like I never can. Even with forcefields they still have double the units I do. And with stim and conc my army is even weaker. I usually lose my expo, terran expos behind the push and then I basically play behind from there.
I think part of the problem is I feel like I can never gather enough scouting info vs a T. I almost always see a gas and a rax before my probe dies which could also be a 111. Sometimes I can scout an addon or additional rax. If the terran has a tech lab and more than 1 rax up should I just expect early aggression and 3 gate expand instead?
Click on the gas to see how much theyve mined and how early it was built. That can tell you a lot about how theyre going to open.
I wouldnt 1 gate FE if you arent feeling that confident against early Terran pushes (which can be really deadly). You can 2 gate FE and hold them off, try naniwa's 2 gate FE which is floating around somewhere here. Also make sure to use chrono more so on the gateways and not the warp itself, since that'll get you more units out faster.
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On September 15 2011 12:48 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 10:40 bankai wrote:
For PvZ, does anyone know some simple scouting tips to tell what to look out for?? Im so lost as to when and what to scout!
E.g. like scout at 3mins --> look for gas/expansion
Scout at 5mins --> look for tech (like roach warren/banelings), confirm all-in is not coming
that kinda format/?? You might find this post by anihc helpful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230¤tpage=9#166
LOL he was the one who asked the question in that link
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On September 15 2011 14:26 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 12:48 eugalp wrote:On September 15 2011 10:40 bankai wrote:
For PvZ, does anyone know some simple scouting tips to tell what to look out for?? Im so lost as to when and what to scout!
E.g. like scout at 3mins --> look for gas/expansion
Scout at 5mins --> look for tech (like roach warren/banelings), confirm all-in is not coming
that kinda format/?? You might find this post by anihc helpful: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230¤tpage=9#166 LOL he was the one who asked the question in that link
hahaha...exactly
I appreciate that answer from Anihc previously, but my question was aimed a bit more general. That answer was in context to starting with a forge FE opening, and the common difficulty with lack of scouting ability early on.
In that answer, Anihc says to pretty much scout all the time. While i understand the intent and thats probably true, im really struggling multi-tasking, so would like to start at the basic level and know "critical times" to scout, and for what exactly....just to limit what i need to look for at this stage and get used to it. Thats what my current question was supposed to address
Ohhh...i forgot to say as well that assume I am opening 2 gate FE into hallucinated phoenix
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 15 2011 10:39 bankai wrote:For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first. Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice) I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance'
Any opening should be safe vs 3rax and be able to expand against it with good forcefields; i personally perefer 3gate expand, eventually adding a 4th gate if their expansion is super late, but that's personal preference.
Of course if he's 3raxing you don't want to get the two forges, just throw down an additional gate and you should be fine; after you hold his push get a couple of ranged colossi and go finish him off.
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On September 15 2011 16:45 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 10:39 bankai wrote:For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first. Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice) I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance' Any opening should be safe vs 3rax and be able to expand against it with good forcefields; i personally perefer 3gate expand, eventually adding a 4th gate if their expansion is super late, but that's personal preference. Of course if he's 3raxing you don't want to get the two forges, just throw down an additional gate and you should be fine; after you hold his push get a couple of ranged colossi and go finish him off.
Yes, as long as you see it coming you can be safe. However if you are going for 1gate robo you might need to add additional gates before you expand, or you could expand and cut probes for a while. the timing should be around 8:30 if not this link is outdated. I do not recommend going colossus without scouting though, as terran might be doing something crazy to come back. I do agree that it is good as you already have a robo but you should be using observers to scout his base first. And remember some players just push again later with about the same amount of units.
On September 15 2011 14:02 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 12:57 flipstorm wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble with stim/conc timing pushes/3 rax plus aggression. Can you hold these terran builds with a 1 gate FE? I feel like I never can. Even with forcefields they still have double the units I do. And with stim and conc my army is even weaker. I usually lose my expo, terran expos behind the push and then I basically play behind from there.
I think part of the problem is I feel like I can never gather enough scouting info vs a T. I almost always see a gas and a rax before my probe dies which could also be a 111. Sometimes I can scout an addon or additional rax. If the terran has a tech lab and more than 1 rax up should I just expect early aggression and 3 gate expand instead? Click on the gas to see how much theyve mined and how early it was built. That can tell you a lot about how theyre going to open. I wouldnt 1 gate FE if you arent feeling that confident against early Terran pushes (which can be really deadly). You can 2 gate FE and hold them off, try naniwa's 2 gate FE which is floating around somewhere here. Also make sure to use chrono more so on the gateways and not the warp itself, since that'll get you more units out faster.
You can still go on and 1gate FE, but if you suspect a 3rax you need to add 3 gates asap (around 30-34 food) while cutting probes completely. Even if you lose some probes when he push you should be ahead in economy as you have 2 nexuses to chronoboost probes out of.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 15 2011 18:49 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 16:45 Teoita wrote:On September 15 2011 10:39 bankai wrote:For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first. Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice) I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance' Any opening should be safe vs 3rax and be able to expand against it with good forcefields; i personally perefer 3gate expand, eventually adding a 4th gate if their expansion is super late, but that's personal preference. Of course if he's 3raxing you don't want to get the two forges, just throw down an additional gate and you should be fine; after you hold his push get a couple of ranged colossi and go finish him off. Yes, as long as you see it coming you can be safe. However if you are going for 1gate robo you might need to add additional gates before you expand, or you could expand and cut probes for a while. the timing should be around 8:30 if not this link is outdated. I do not recommend going colossus without scouting though, as terran might be doing something crazy to come back. I do agree that it is good as you already have a robo but you should be using observers to scout his base first. And remember some players just push again later with about the same amount of units.
Some 3rax variations are faster than that; i remember seeing MKP trying to 3rax Huk in the GSTL, and he arrived at huk's nat at around 7.00 (huk held it off with a 1gate fe so it's worth checking out if you have trouble vs 3rax).
He mentioned specifically that he has trouble vs players that expand behind it against his robo opening (which is super common up to diamond or so), hence my suggestion to go colossus
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EPT
