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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
Thanks for the answers, I think I wasn't clear with some of the questions ^^
1. I only take the ninja expansion when I know he is going Robo, its more so that I don't get pinned in my base by a Colossus build when he moves out, I never really take a ninja expansion if I know he is going blink. I find expanding in Blink vs Blink kinda hard, although I guess thats to be expected if we are doing the same thing.
7. My issue with it is that I'm stuck in my base, if I try to move out, he can blink in. I just have no idea how to deal with that situation, as I can't combat his stalkers with my own, he will have more. It also means I can't expand, or defend an expansion. With this situation, I mean when my opponent goes for mass blink, while I stop making stalkers, and start making zealots.
EDIT: Thanks for the guide, I'll check it out, see if its worth doing. If not, I can at least learn the specifics of the style, so I can play against it better ^^
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On September 16 2011 16:18 maasai_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 15:13 Anihc wrote:On September 16 2011 15:03 maasai_ wrote:
What's the best unit composition to handle MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking?
I've been running into this A LOT on the ladder and it always steamrolls me. I beat it once, but only because I outmacroed the Terran hardcore near the end of the game. (Like 7base vs. 3) and he was still trading even with my armies because of his stutter step and ghost control. Need replay, sounds like you're doing something else wrong (like having weaker macro than your opponent). Generally you want to have compositions of pure zealot/archon to make his vikings useless, and then when he stops viking production and lands his vikings thinking they're useless, then you go dual or triple robo colossus and switch to colossus/stalker/zealot. Also add in HTs to either composition if you're comfortable with additional micro, but even I don't like using HT because I'd rather spend the extra actions on macro and making more units. I understand there are flaws in my game-play, but that's not entirely relevant to my question. I'm my own harshest critic and am absolutely obsessed with fixing the tiniest of mistakes/non-optimal gameplay. However, I'm purely interested in the theorycrafting of an army composition that is cost effective against MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking. With proper army control by the Terran I feel like the zealot/archon composition is absolute trash. EMPs negate Archons and if there are no Collossus the Terran will land his vikings, which do amazing DPS against the zealots (and can be microed quite well by changing modes) and MarauderGhost (especially in a large ball) kite zealots with minimal losses. The tech switch to Collossus is very difficult on equal bases with Terran, because if I have the income to go 3robo Col. they're likely constantly scanning my tech+army and 2/3starports w/reactor can easily replenish enough vikings to negate even 3 robo Col. I've run into the problem with HTs being ineffective due to the friendly damage of storm during engagements causing a TON of damage to my zealot after being EMPed, and trying to storm snipe causes the Terran to place his vikings out around his units to spot for HTs coming in for suicide storms. They then get sniped by a marauder/ghost before doing anything effective. I'm simply at a total loss of what I can do against this army comp. in a cost effective manner against a competent opponent, but thanks for your advice. <3 Do you have specific ratios for your suggested unit comps? Perhaps I'm too heavy in one unit or another.
Your issue is not an army comp issue, trust me. There is no magical composition or ratio that will automatically give you the advantage against mmm ghost viking. If anything, as I was trying to say in my previous post, you want to be heavy in 1 unit. If you go zealot/archon, you want very few sentries (i.e. 1 or 2, only for GS), a small group of stalkers if any at all, all your gas on archons, and the rest on zealots. If you go colossus, then you want as few stalkers as possible but enough to protect from vikings, and the rest on zealots. A few archons mixed in will also help. Again in late game, you only need 1 or 2 sentries.
You just can't expect to 1a a deathball into mmm viking ghost and win, there are many micro and engagement skills you have to work on to win these battles. For example, if you go zealot/archon, try separating your army into 2 separate ones and see if you can flank the army. If you go colossus/stalker/zealot, focus fire down the vikings. Or, pull back your zealots and just a move with the colossus/stalker. This way the terran can't kite and kill off your zealots while your colossus aren't even attacking. Only when he gets in range to hit your colossus with his bio then do you attack with your zealots. If you use HT, spread them out. Try putting them in warp prisms. Have a forward HT trying to snipe ghosts with feedback. If he's spotting with vikings or a small group of bio, protect with blink stalkers. You shouldn't be storming your own zealots, aim behind the terran army or on top of it. Too far away you say? Well pull back your zealots and let him chase you, then storm.
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On September 16 2011 16:43 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 16:18 maasai_ wrote:On September 16 2011 15:13 Anihc wrote:On September 16 2011 15:03 maasai_ wrote:
What's the best unit composition to handle MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking?
I've been running into this A LOT on the ladder and it always steamrolls me. I beat it once, but only because I outmacroed the Terran hardcore near the end of the game. (Like 7base vs. 3) and he was still trading even with my armies because of his stutter step and ghost control. Need replay, sounds like you're doing something else wrong (like having weaker macro than your opponent). Generally you want to have compositions of pure zealot/archon to make his vikings useless, and then when he stops viking production and lands his vikings thinking they're useless, then you go dual or triple robo colossus and switch to colossus/stalker/zealot. Also add in HTs to either composition if you're comfortable with additional micro, but even I don't like using HT because I'd rather spend the extra actions on macro and making more units. I understand there are flaws in my game-play, but that's not entirely relevant to my question. I'm my own harshest critic and am absolutely obsessed with fixing the tiniest of mistakes/non-optimal gameplay. However, I'm purely interested in the theorycrafting of an army composition that is cost effective against MarauderMedivac,Ghost,Viking. With proper army control by the Terran I feel like the zealot/archon composition is absolute trash. EMPs negate Archons and if there are no Collossus the Terran will land his vikings, which do amazing DPS against the zealots (and can be microed quite well by changing modes) and MarauderGhost (especially in a large ball) kite zealots with minimal losses. The tech switch to Collossus is very difficult on equal bases with Terran, because if I have the income to go 3robo Col. they're likely constantly scanning my tech+army and 2/3starports w/reactor can easily replenish enough vikings to negate even 3 robo Col. I've run into the problem with HTs being ineffective due to the friendly damage of storm during engagements causing a TON of damage to my zealot after being EMPed, and trying to storm snipe causes the Terran to place his vikings out around his units to spot for HTs coming in for suicide storms. They then get sniped by a marauder/ghost before doing anything effective. I'm simply at a total loss of what I can do against this army comp. in a cost effective manner against a competent opponent, but thanks for your advice. <3 Do you have specific ratios for your suggested unit comps? Perhaps I'm too heavy in one unit or another. Your issue is not an army comp issue, trust me. There is no magical composition or ratio that will automatically give you the advantage against mmm ghost viking. If anything, as I was trying to say in my previous post, you want to be heavy in 1 unit. If you go zealot/archon, you want very few sentries (i.e. 1 or 2, only for GS), a small group of stalkers if any at all, all your gas on archons, and the rest on zealots. If you go colossus, then you want as few stalkers as possible but enough to protect from vikings, and the rest on zealots. A few archons mixed in will also help. Again in late game, you only need 1 or 2 sentries. You just can't expect to 1a a deathball into mmm viking ghost and win, there are many micro and engagement skills you have to work on to win these battles. For example, if you go zealot/archon, try separating your army into 2 separate ones and see if you can flank the army. If you go colossus/stalker/zealot, focus fire down the vikings. Or, pull back your zealots and just a move with the colossus/stalker. This way the terran can't kite and kill off your zealots while your colossus aren't even attacking. Only when he gets in range to hit your colossus with his bio then do you attack with your zealots. If you use HT, spread them out. Try putting them in warp prisms. Have a forward HT trying to snipe ghosts with feedback. If he's spotting with vikings or a small group of bio, protect with blink stalkers. You shouldn't be storming your own zealots, aim behind the terran army or on top of it. Too far away you say? Well pull back your zealots and let him chase you, then storm.
You should totally write a quick [G] on engagement tips like this, Anihc. Many seem obvious when written down, yet without such an explicit list, we noobs forget a lot in the heat of battle.
I remember reading the PvT engagement guide back in the BW days -- it was like receiving the Ten Commandment from Mount Sinai. What a revelation!
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 16 2011 08:23 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 19:03 Latedi wrote:On September 15 2011 18:54 Teoita wrote:On September 15 2011 18:49 Latedi wrote:On September 15 2011 16:45 Teoita wrote:On September 15 2011 10:39 bankai wrote:For PvT, I use Tyler's double forge build and opening with 1 gate robo gate getting 1zealot/1stalker/2sentries first. Against a standard 3rax marine/maurauder push, how do you defend? Can you expand against this? They pressure with their push and deny my expansion, and also expand behind it. I hear mixed opinions, some ppl say u should expand against 3rax cos 2gates/robo isnt enough units to hold against...others tell me to improve my micro/macro (which honestly is not practical or specific advice)  I dont have the replay anymore so im asking this in a 'general circumstance'  Any opening should be safe vs 3rax and be able to expand against it with good forcefields; i personally perefer 3gate expand, eventually adding a 4th gate if their expansion is super late, but that's personal preference. Of course if he's 3raxing you don't want to get the two forges, just throw down an additional gate and you should be fine; after you hold his push get a couple of ranged colossi and go finish him off. Yes, as long as you see it coming you can be safe. However if you are going for 1gate robo you might need to add additional gates before you expand, or you could expand and cut probes for a while. the timing should be around 8:30 if not this link is outdated. I do not recommend going colossus without scouting though, as terran might be doing something crazy to come back. I do agree that it is good as you already have a robo but you should be using observers to scout his base first. And remember some players just push again later with about the same amount of units. Some 3rax variations are faster than that; i remember seeing MKP trying to 3rax Huk in the GSTL, and he arrived at huk's nat at around 7.00 (huk held it off with a 1gate fe so it's worth checking out if you have trouble vs 3rax). He mentioned specifically that he has trouble vs players that expand behind it against his robo opening (which is super common up to diamond or so), hence my suggestion to go colossus  Aah I see. I don't understand this opening anymore as no one does it in masters. I encouter it maybe once per 100 games and all the rest of my PvTs are against 1-1-1 :< I have to say though, going blind 3gate 2gas pressure/all in has given me a lot of free wins. So my advice is mostly based on (old) experience. Thanks for all the really helpful advice! For this MKP vs Huk match, where can I download that replay? I think with ppl saying that you need more units that u do upgrades against early heavy rax pressure, im bit confused about tyler's double forge build. Normally with that build you get early upgrades as soon as the expansion is down....but ppl are saying if terran pressures u heavily with 3rax/4rax then defer the upgrades and go Colossus?? is that right? I must be unlucky (or lucky)...I tend to get 50% 1-1-1 and the other is 2rax/3rax openers!
There's no GSTL replays i'm afraid, it's from the ogs vs prime match this season but you need a ticket.
What i meant regarding the upgrades is this: double forge is only a good choice if you see him expanding, if you face a 1base allin like 3rax then investing in the two forges rather than in one extra gateway for defense leaves you weaker to his push, and even your +1/+1 won't be up in most cases.
Now assuming you defend his 3rax with 2gate robo and a nexus that's already down, you have both an econ and tech advantage over him as he will only now be trying to expand and he is still miles away from getting medivacs and vikings, so you can just finish him off with, say, a 2 colossus attack. I do the same with 3gate expand into 6gate the few times i face people in diamond that still do that build.
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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 16:37 Chelch wrote:
Thanks for the answers, I think I wasn't clear with some of the questions ^^
1. I only take the ninja expansion when I know he is going Robo, its more so that I don't get pinned in my base by a Colossus build when he moves out, I never really take a ninja expansion if I know he is going blink. I find expanding in Blink vs Blink kinda hard, although I guess thats to be expected if we are doing the same thing.
7. My issue with it is that I'm stuck in my base, if I try to move out, he can blink in. I just have no idea how to deal with that situation, as I can't combat his stalkers with my own, he will have more. It also means I can't expand, or defend an expansion. With this situation, I mean when my opponent goes for mass blink, while I stop making stalkers, and start making zealots.
EDIT: Thanks for the guide, I'll check it out, see if its worth doing. If not, I can at least learn the specifics of the style, so I can play against it better ^^
1. Isn't really a question, so I don't know how to answer that.
7. If you're opening blink versus blink, it can be very difficult to transition into anything that's not blink. Just a frontal attack will kill you if the armies are equal and you're more zealot heavy while he's just pure stalker. Some example games of this situation include MC vs LoveCD or LoveTT on xelnaga caverns and Huk vs Killer on Metal from GSL. Ideally in an even game, both players should just mass blink stalkers for a very long time. You need some type of advantage to transition to zealots, such as a defender's advantage with a ramp or a unit advantage. A lot of this is mentioned in my guide.
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 16 2011 17:49 Sated wrote:
Does anyone have a good build order for a gate-robo-expand build in PvT? I just don't feel safe against T if I don't get an early observer. I tried looking on Liquidpedia, but the fast-expand article says, "we'll save that for another page" without there being another page (at least not as far as I can see, maybe I am being blind!)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204010
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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 17:49 Sated wrote:
Does anyone have a good build order for a gate-robo-expand build in PvT? I just don't feel safe against T if I don't get an early observer. I tried looking on Liquidpedia, but the fast-expand article says, "we'll save that for another page" without there being another page (at least not as far as I can see, maybe I am being blind!)
Off the top of my head
Pylon
3x Cb on probes
Gate
Pylon
Cyber
Zealot
Stalker <-cb
Pylon
Robo
Sentry
Gateway
Sentry
Observer
Nexus at 6:00
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whats the most standard way to open PvP these days? Havent played for a while and having some troubles with it right now... Going for the 3 Stalker robo build right now.. That still viable?
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 16 2011 19:47 danib0y wrote:
whats the most standard way to open PvP these days? Havent played for a while and having some troubles with it right now... Going for the 3 Stalker robo build right now.. That still viable?
It is viable if a little outdated. Mostly people tend to do an opening that's safe against a 4gate, while faking a 4gate themselves; when you feel safe vs 4gate you start teching. A compilation of similar builds is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256711
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Hello, I got a interesting replay here I would like to know what I could done better, prefereably should I had expanded or not. Was it right decision to add robotics with 3-5 gateways, should I had cut probes or got an early observer instead of immortlal. I'm mid master, so someone around that level or higher gamesense would be really appreciated. Thanks
http://drop.sc/35076
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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 19:55 eYeball wrote:Hello, I got a interesting replay here I would like to know what I could done better, prefereably should I had expanded or not. Was it right decision to add robotics with 3-5 gateways, should I had cut probes or got an early observer instead of immortlal. I'm mid master, so someone around that level or higher gamesense would be really appreciated. Thanks http://drop.sc/35076
Your 3 gate opening wasn't very optimal, so you didn't defend his 2 rax as well as you could have.
You could have fended off his attack rather easily if your units weren't on top of your ramp. You just needed good forcefields while you were on low ground. what happened was half of your units weren't attacking cause they were stuck on the ramp.
Personally, I find that 5 gates and a robo is too much to defend a 1 base allin with a 3 gate expand. 1 gate expand can defend allins with 5 gates and robo, but you don't really have the economy with the build you're using to support 5 gates and a robo.
You could have gotten an earlier robo to scout whether he expanded or not. Either way, you probably want some way of knowing if he expanded. Another alternative might be to hide a probe in his natural.
Your unit composition was fine for defending such an attack, but if you don't have zealots, you have to rely on perfect forcefields and positioning, which you didn't have.
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I am curious; how to best be able to defend a 6pool on Tal Darim (that big one, idk) when going FFE? Do I have to go double scout?
It's usually pretty obvious when early agression is incoming. When I scout last however, I can't react in time when it's 6pool right? Don't have the replay here, but had a game recently where I scouted last, just in time to meet 6 zerglings. Put down a pylon in my main immediately but the forge got killed before it finished. Do I have to put down a pylon preemptively when I suspect early agression?
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Lately I'm having problems with a Zerg FE-ing.
When I scout the fast hatch I'm already too late to go for an early expo myself. Even a 4gate will arrive at his base too late, he will already have 2-3 spines up and a few roaches ready...
Any tips ?
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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 23:07 Fivt wrote:
I am curious; how to best be able to defend a 6pool on Tal Darim (that big one, idk) when going FFE? Do I have to go double scout?
It's usually pretty obvious when early agression is incoming. When I scout last however, I can't react in time when it's 6pool right? Don't have the replay here, but had a game recently where I scouted last, just in time to meet 6 zerglings. Put down a pylon in my main immediately but the forge got killed before it finished. Do I have to put down a pylon preemptively when I suspect early agression?
On a big 4 player map with 4 spawn locations like talderim, to be safe, you have to go 9 scout and then 13 forge 13 scout in a 2nd location. When you scout a 6 pool, throw down a pylon in your main and then a cannon.
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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 23:07 SchizoNL wrote:
Lately I'm having problems with a Zerg FE-ing.
When I scout the fast hatch I'm already too late to go for an early expo myself. Even a 4gate will arrive at his base too late, he will already have 2-3 spines up and a few roaches ready...
Any tips ?
Zerg is supposed to be able to get a fast expand early and safely. There is nothing you can do to consistently punish it. Either forge fast expand yourself, cannon rush him versus a 15 hatch, or do a later expand build, such as 1 gate/3gate/dt/stargate expand.
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On September 16 2011 23:10 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 23:07 Fivt wrote:
I am curious; how to best be able to defend a 6pool on Tal Darim (that big one, idk) when going FFE? Do I have to go double scout?
It's usually pretty obvious when early agression is incoming. When I scout last however, I can't react in time when it's 6pool right? Don't have the replay here, but had a game recently where I scouted last, just in time to meet 6 zerglings. Put down a pylon in my main immediately but the forge got killed before it finished. Do I have to put down a pylon preemptively when I suspect early agression? On a big 4 player map with 4 spawn locations like talderim, to be safe, you have to go 9 scout and then 13 forge 13 scout in a 2nd location. When you scout a 6 pool, throw down a pylon in your main and then a cannon.
Does that really work? You would be spending 300 minerals on cannons (on at natural ramp and one at main), and doesnt 8 lings beat a cannon? At the very least you will lose your forge and pylon at your natural.
I never FFE so I dont have a good anser to this, but I think cutting probes, getting a cannon at your natural and then pulling probes to block your choke until you can get a full wall-off would be better?
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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 23:16 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 23:10 4kmonk wrote:On September 16 2011 23:07 Fivt wrote:
I am curious; how to best be able to defend a 6pool on Tal Darim (that big one, idk) when going FFE? Do I have to go double scout?
It's usually pretty obvious when early agression is incoming. When I scout last however, I can't react in time when it's 6pool right? Don't have the replay here, but had a game recently where I scouted last, just in time to meet 6 zerglings. Put down a pylon in my main immediately but the forge got killed before it finished. Do I have to put down a pylon preemptively when I suspect early agression? On a big 4 player map with 4 spawn locations like talderim, to be safe, you have to go 9 scout and then 13 forge 13 scout in a 2nd location. When you scout a 6 pool, throw down a pylon in your main and then a cannon. Does that really work? You would be spending 300 minerals on cannons (on at natural ramp and one at main), and doesnt 8 lings beat a cannon? At the very least you will lose your forge and pylon at your natural. I never FFE so I dont have a good anser to this, but I think cutting probes, getting a cannon at your natural and then pulling probes to block your choke until you can get a full wall-off would be better?
No, you just cannon your main and give up your natural pylon and forge. 8 lings do not beat a cannon when probes can easily surround the cannon. On a vast majority of maps, you cannot cannon your natural to defend a 6 pool. You will lose too many probes, the cannon won't finish in time, and he can run into your base. You'll still be way ahead with the standard method, as you'll have 15+ probes to 6 drones.
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Canada13410 Posts
On September 16 2011 23:16 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 23:10 4kmonk wrote:On September 16 2011 23:07 Fivt wrote:
I am curious; how to best be able to defend a 6pool on Tal Darim (that big one, idk) when going FFE? Do I have to go double scout?
It's usually pretty obvious when early agression is incoming. When I scout last however, I can't react in time when it's 6pool right? Don't have the replay here, but had a game recently where I scouted last, just in time to meet 6 zerglings. Put down a pylon in my main immediately but the forge got killed before it finished. Do I have to put down a pylon preemptively when I suspect early agression? On a big 4 player map with 4 spawn locations like talderim, to be safe, you have to go 9 scout and then 13 forge 13 scout in a 2nd location. When you scout a 6 pool, throw down a pylon in your main and then a cannon. Does that really work? You would be spending 300 minerals on cannons (on at natural ramp and one at main), and doesnt 8 lings beat a cannon? At the very least you will lose your forge and pylon at your natural. I never FFE so I dont have a good anser to this, but I think cutting probes, getting a cannon at your natural and then pulling probes to block your choke until you can get a full wall-off would be better?
You don't get a cannon at your natural, only in the main with the pylon in the main. It will hold the 6 pool and it will be 1 base vs 1 base with you having a better mineral saturation. In the end I personally have a really hard time with the follow up having defended the 6 pool. I have a hard time expanding due to the large number of lings preventing me from taking my natural.
Oftentimes the Zerg player will just leave when their 6 pool doesnt do any damage but when they stick around I always seem to lose. Perhaps some tips on how to follow up?
Also: Anihc, I second the opinion on a "how to engage as protoss" guide. I feel the biggest flaw in my gameplay right now is engagements as I seem to keep up with my opponent in macro but just am never able to engage right. My Micro is crap and I just fall apart when trying to micro against them. I've started to try and harass more to slow them down and give myself more of an edge macro wise (since in an "even" battle I micro terribly and always seem to lose :/)
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EPT
