EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 58
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Fivt
Netherlands31 Posts
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Sodaplay111
United States41 Posts
to expand on that... how does one USE the mothership affectivly? i mean there is no more archon toilet it just seems like a gigantic arbiter with 1 big stasis field. | ||
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maasai_
United States27 Posts
On September 16 2011 16:43 Anihc wrote: Your issue is not an army comp issue, trust me. There is no magical composition or ratio that will automatically give you the advantage against mmm ghost viking. If anything, as I was trying to say in my previous post, you want to be heavy in 1 unit. If you go zealot/archon, you want very few sentries (i.e. 1 or 2, only for GS), a small group of stalkers if any at all, all your gas on archons, and the rest on zealots. If you go colossus, then you want as few stalkers as possible but enough to protect from vikings, and the rest on zealots. A few archons mixed in will also help. Again in late game, you only need 1 or 2 sentries. You just can't expect to 1a a deathball into mmm viking ghost and win, there are many micro and engagement skills you have to work on to win these battles. For example, if you go zealot/archon, try separating your army into 2 separate ones and see if you can flank the army. If you go colossus/stalker/zealot, focus fire down the vikings. Or, pull back your zealots and just a move with the colossus/stalker. This way the terran can't kite and kill off your zealots while your colossus aren't even attacking. Only when he gets in range to hit your colossus with his bio then do you attack with your zealots. If you use HT, spread them out. Try putting them in warp prisms. Have a forward HT trying to snipe ghosts with feedback. If he's spotting with vikings or a small group of bio, protect with blink stalkers. You shouldn't be storming your own zealots, aim behind the terran army or on top of it. Too far away you say? Well pull back your zealots and let him chase you, then storm. O-k, that's what I was looking for when I meant "ratio", the 'heavy in 1 unit'. Thank you.  That was my best attempt at beating the mm ghost viking, but it still doesn't feel the least bit cost effective. Stim kiting is just too effective against pure zealot for me to see it as completely viable against an opponent exceptionally skilled in kiting. I did the army split until I met opponents who weren't bad in their decision making and scouting. It works wonders until Terran realizes they can viking spot/scan your army constantly. Once an army is split, all they need to do is force an engagement on half your army while your other half is out of position to absolutely rofllolstomp you. Archon/zealot isn't exactly the most mobile unit composition in the world. I had some success with bait&lure traps, where I'd fake split and hide half my army nearby until an engagement is forced on one half, which is retreated while the second half comes from the rear and then sandwiches the force, which was probably the best exchange I've gotten. However, that's simply not reliable enough for every engagement, especially if the Terran is ample with his scouting and spots the position of both your armies. In the Col/stalker/zealot scenario, assuming the Terran isn't stupid he'll keep retreating his bio while sniping Collossus with Vikings (I'm talking ~15 vikings to 1shot Col). 9range>6range, and blinking to snipe off those Vikings means an EMP and lots of lost stalkers with minimal viking losses. (Can't you tell i've tried this terrible idea?  ) I do spread out my HTs, warp prism play is RISKY with vikings on the field, especially if the Terran ever sees the Warp Prism with his scans. I don't understand your reasoning behind "don't storm your zealots"...I'm not, but no Terran is going to stand in a storm, they kite out of it and zealots follow. The retreat, storm behind, and then engage is a good idea, though. I hadn't thought of how effective that could be, but I'm still worried about being able to get off enough storms with so many ghosts on the field. Feedback is hard versus cloaked ghosts when a Terran is again ample enough with scans to prevent obs from hanging around. I feel like all these suggestions rely on the Terran making a mistake in the engagement, though, because the amount of control available to me in these engagements is comparatively small. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 17 2011 01:53 Sodaplay111 wrote: Thanks for all the earlyer responses about the mother ship! to expand on that... how does one USE the mothership affectivly? i mean there is no more archon toilet it just seems like a gigantic arbiter with 1 big stasis field. Only regarding colossus wars: when his colossi come out of the vortex they are clumped, while yours will be spread (as in, vortex his army and then spread yours out); this means that your army's positioning will be much, much better and you will definitely win the battle assuming you are both maxed. Note that this is only in 200/200 vs 200/200 mass colossi battles; i like to save the last 8 supply for a mothership. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On September 17 2011 01:53 Sodaplay111 wrote: Thanks for all the earlyer responses about the mother ship! to expand on that... how does one USE the mothership affectivly? i mean there is no more archon toilet it just seems like a gigantic arbiter with 1 big stasis field. Use Vortex vs Brood Lords. It makes engaging the Zerg army 100 times easier without Broods. Kiwi popularized this. It's really good. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 17 2011 01:59 maasai_ wrote: O-k, that's what I was looking for when I meant "ratio", the 'heavy in 1 unit'. Thank you. That was my best attempt at beating the mm ghost viking, but it still doesn't feel the least bit cost effective. Stim kiting is just too effective against pure zealot for me to see it as completely viable against an opponent exceptionally skilled in kiting. I did the army split until I met opponents who weren't bad in their decision making and scouting. It works wonders until Terran realizes they can viking spot/scan your army constantly. Once an army is split, all they need to do is force an engagement on half your army while your other half is out of position to absolutely rofllolstomp you. Archon/zealot isn't exactly the most mobile unit composition in the world. I had some success with bait&lure traps, where I'd fake split and hide half my army nearby until an engagement is forced on one half, which is retreated while the second half comes from the rear and then sandwiches the force, which was probably the best exchange I've gotten. However, that's simply not reliable enough for every engagement, especially if the Terran is ample with his scouting and spots the position of both your armies. In the Col/stalker/zealot scenario, assuming the Terran isn't stupid he'll keep retreating his bio while sniping Collossus with Vikings (I'm talking ~15 vikings to 1shot Col). 9range>6range, and blinking to snipe off those Vikings means an EMP and lots of lost stalkers with minimal viking losses. (Can't you tell i've tried this terrible idea? ) I do spread out my HTs, warp prism play is RISKY with vikings on the field, especially if the Terran ever sees the Warp Prism with his scans. I don't understand your reasoning behind "don't storm your zealots"...I'm not, but no Terran is going to stand in a storm, they kite out of it and zealots follow. The retreat, storm behind, and then engage is a good idea, though. I hadn't thought of how effective that could be, but I'm still worried about being able to get off enough storms with so many ghosts on the field. Feedback is hard versus cloaked ghosts when a Terran is again ample enough with scans to prevent obs from hanging around. I feel like all these suggestions rely on the Terran making a mistake in the engagement, though, because the amount of control available to me in these engagements is comparatively small. Just FYI, every piece of advice I ever give on these forums is applicable at the highest level of play, unless otherwise noted. I never give theorycrafted answers, they all come from direct personal experience and/or from watching other top level players. You don't need to wait for your opponent to make mistakes, you can always improve your own play and army control. | ||
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Rohan
United Kingdom83 Posts
How do you hold off a marine/SCV all in? Generally opening with 13 gate, gas, core, gas, gate and then transitioning from there into my standard build. I usually try and harrass/delay the push coming cross map with my Stalker, but typically I can't get the sentry out in time. Even if I do, it seems like he just wanders into my base scott free. In other words, I guess, am I doing the wrong thing by not getting a Sentry first close positions? I usually go stalker, and skip the zealot vs a 2 rax...but maybe my thought process is wrong? 2. What does everyone build out of their gateways while waiting for WG to finish in PvT? | ||
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maasai_
United States27 Posts
On September 17 2011 07:19 Anihc wrote: Just FYI, every piece of advice I ever give on these forums is applicable at the highest level of play, unless otherwise noted. I never give theorycrafted answers, they all come from direct personal experience and/or from watching other top level players. You don't need to wait for your opponent to make mistakes, you can always improve your own play and army control. Well thank you for your advice, then. I will try what you have suggested. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 17 2011 07:34 Rohan wrote: 1. On a small map, or close positions on Shattered, or whatever: How do you hold off a marine/SCV all in? Generally opening with 13 gate, gas, core, gas, gate and then transitioning from there into my standard build. I usually try and harrass/delay the push coming cross map with my Stalker, but typically I can't get the sentry out in time. Even if I do, it seems like he just wanders into my base scott free. In other words, I guess, am I doing the wrong thing by not getting a Sentry first close positions? I usually go stalker, and skip the zealot vs a 2 rax...but maybe my thought process is wrong? 2. What does everyone build out of their gateways while waiting for WG to finish in PvT? IMO sentry is bad against marine/scv all-in. Not skipping the zealot also helps. I chrono stalkers out of gateway and I generally don't have many problems against marine/scv all-in. | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
On September 17 2011 08:53 Anihc wrote: IMO sentry is bad against marine/scv all-in. Not skipping the zealot also helps. I chrono stalkers out of gateway and I generally don't have many problems against marine/scv all-in. Yeah I completely agree. I've trashed a marine all in with pure chronoed stalkers after a zealot off a 1 gate expand. You have to micro like CRAZY and snipe marines. Kite them and pull probes, you should be fine if you do that. The sentry just doesn't do enough dps to be usefully in a situation like that. PvT I always 1 gate expand, so its 1 zealot and as many stalkers as I can chrono until WG finishes. If I decided to 3gate expand, you skip the zealot, get 1 stalker and 2 sentries. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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AlmightyRaiden
Mexico59 Posts
So frustrating when someone just sits all game and waits for an attack, very difficult to brake. | ||
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AlmightyRaiden
Mexico59 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 17 2011 19:19 Tachion wrote: Hihi, I'm a masters Z/T player who wants to try to learn P as well. I generally just copy builds used by pros the best I can. Who's the best Protoss to steal builds from in each match-up? Preferably one with safer/more reliable/consistent openings(makes the learning process easier). This is actually a really hard question as most protosses at the top tend to play rather gimmicky or risky right now. I think any solid builds would be good to learn first disregarding whalt player uses it. PvT: 1gate expand PvZ: forge expand PvP: 3gate robo Not everyone will agree with me but these are kind of standard macro builds. As for players you can get a lot more info on western players such as HuK, Tyler or White-ra. On September 17 2011 21:28 AlmightyRaiden wrote: Hi, just came across a game vs Terran where the opponent was defensive and only Thor as unit, i threw at him 3 maxed armies with no luck, the thor wouldn't go down.. I had zealot+charge, colossi, some void rays and stalker all tech maxed out on 5 bases, tried to transition to more immortals later on but still no luck, what is the best option to counter that? So frustrating when someone just sits all game and waits for an attack, very difficult to brake. If you could have anything... I think an army of mothership void ray carrier immortal would be nice against mass thors. Void rays and immortals should just destroy them, carriers because they are awesome if he gets other units and mothership is always good to have if you have the opportunity. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:03 Latedi wrote: This is actually a really hard question as most protosses at the top tend to play rather gimmicky or risky right now. I think any solid builds would be good to learn first disregarding whalt player uses it. PvT: 1gate expand PvZ: forge expand PvP: 3gate robo Not everyone will agree with me but these are kind of standard macro builds. As for players you can get a lot more info on western players such as HuK, Tyler or White-ra. Stop suggesting 3 gate robo for PvP. We've had this discussion before and what most people call 3 gate robo doesn't work. | ||
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yang.aus
Australia104 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:29 flashbacK wrote: I faced a marine/scv allin a few days ago where the terran built bunkers in my base. I am still puzzled on how to deal with it, the marines kept my stalkers away from the bunkers long enough for them to go up... Anybody have any experience on dealing with it? I generally deal with marine/scv allins by kiting inside my base until I have a sufficient stalker count to deal it but with only 1-2 stalkers I don't see a way to kill it without massive probe losses. Generally, you're supposed to kite his marines all the way from his base. However, we probably need a replay to give more/better advice, as the situation you're describing is unclear. There's lots of variations of marine/scv/bunker. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
If you go colossus, then you want as few stalkers as possible but enough to protect from vikings, and the rest on zealots I read this, and thought the terran can just kite your zealots for free... then i read this: If you go colossus/stalker/zealot, focus fire down the vikings. Or, pull back your zealots and just a move with the colossus/stalker. This way the terran can't kite and kill off your zealots while your colossus aren't even attacking. Only when he gets in range to hit your colossus with his bio then do you attack with your zealots. Which clears things up a bit but I still don't really understand the point of the zealots. I guess you need a mineral dump but once you engage won't the terran just start kiting, back to the original problem? Are the zealots meant to be used solely as meat shields, kept near the stalkers to draw fire but not actually attack to keep the MMM in range, and as another way to keep the MMM from running in close and sniping collo? | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:07 4kmonk wrote: Stop suggesting 3 gate robo for PvP. We've had this discussion before and what most people call 3 gate robo doesn't work. Yes we had a discussion and no, we don't agree with each other. Tachion: try 3stalker rush, it's safe against 4gate and transitions into anything. On September 18 2011 00:59 Huntz wrote: I read this, and thought the terran can just kite your zealots for free... then i read this: Which clears things up a bit but I still don't really understand the point of the zealots. I guess you need a mineral dump but once you engage won't the terran just start kiting, back to the original problem? Are the zealots meant to be used solely as meat shields, kept near the stalkers to draw fire but not actually attack to keep the MMM in range, and as another way to keep the MMM from running in close and sniping collo? The zealots are great if they are not kited, you can accomplish this by not letting them charge ahead of your army. I think a good technique would be to deactivate/active charge but i have never tried this out and this is merely a theory. The result is that terran can not engage you without taking damage from the colossi, and if he does you engage with the zealots. I hope I answered your question. | ||
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yang.aus
Australia104 Posts
On September 18 2011 00:33 4kmonk wrote: Generally, you're supposed to kite his marines all the way from his base. However, we probably need a replay to give more/better advice, as the situation you're describing is unclear. There's lots of variations of marine/scv/bunker. I'll have a hunt for the replay. It was a 3 rax with a delayed orbital pushing out with 8+ marines and 10+ SCVs. As I said I can hold off these allins but there's only so much damage to can do from his base to yours and I couldn't see a way to stop multiple bunkers going up. | ||
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