On September 18 2011 04:06 bayside wrote: PVT vs Mass Thor
I managed to hold off a 3-thor rush with only a handful of stalkers + sentry + 1-2 zealots with good pylon placement (ie. saw thors coming, built pylons at ramp so they could not sneak through) then picked off SCV's. I was pretty much destroyed at that point (had 3-4 stalkers + zealots +1 immortal, 20+probes). I poked and seen an additional 2 thors, so expanding was not safe still (could not afford to defend against thors + expo)... so what finally ended up happening was I pushed him with 5-6 immos and quite a few stalkers with sentry(GS support) started losing, so I pulled back to my main. At which point 6 thors + some marines and SCVs just make this easy push into my main where i indefinitely lose it all.
My question is did I react correctly by getting the immos, another option I would like to explore is fast HT, for feedback on Thors (normally energy bar is pretty full) would that be viable against Thor, or would I be better off just trying to defend with Immortals... I don't typically see many Thor rushes (out of say 70 games, this is the 2nd) I am a gold level player who fights mainly platinum players.
The best way to defend a thor rush is with zealots and immortals. Templar tech is not worth it vs thors for the amount you invested.
On September 18 2011 04:47 Gattaca.usa wrote: how do u handle the mass marines and scvs? plus vikings can snipe the obs then cloaked banshees owns.
If you can scout it in time, cannons are actually a good way to stop this allin. This is the only time I would recommend cannons. Also, favor zealots over stalkers for your ground army, as phoenix can deal with the banshees fine.
On September 18 2011 01:20 eugalp wrote: When facing muta/ling, when is the right time to move out? Say, he goes 2 base muta and grabs his 3rd and possibly 4th off of that. I defend with blink stalkers into archons. On the one hand I feel pressured to be aggressive as soon as possible on the other hand you can easily lose the game if you move out too early and get surrounded by muta/ling. On the other hand if I stay inside too long and accumulate too many archons, not only does he have time to mine more resources but also to switch into roaches.
Also I usually tend to be very starved for gas since stalkers and archons are all obviously very gas intensive. In my last game I tried to dump the extra minerals into zealots but he just got banelings. TT
The easiest way to beat a 2 base mutaling into expand is the good old 6 gate timing popularized imo by incontrol and tyler. It is a speicific timing that hit zerg as they are about to make or have mutalisk in production(they are banking like 800 gas/min+7-8 larva that is why its so devastating). Tihs build used to be build upon a 3 gate expo. You usually have to scout a mutaling build. Exact timing I forgot but usually after you start mining, stop unit production from wp for about 1 round to add 3 gateways. Then pump out maybe 2 round of units while chronoing your warpgates. Then attack while bringing a probe to get a pylon.
Usually it is autowin. you will have a lot of units versus a zergling only army.
Listen I don't give a fuck what you people say. I even saw MC do EXACTLY the same build as I did. I have no reason to prove anything to anyone and I will continue to use my build without any problems.
On September 18 2011 07:23 Latedi wrote: Listen I don't give a fuck what you people say. I even saw MC do EXACTLY the same build as I did. I have no reason to prove anything to anyone and I will continue to use my build without any problems.
Go ahead just don't suggest "3 gate robo" to newer players.
ZvP. Lately I've really been struggling with trying to pressure the Zerg so he doesn't just drone up and amove me. I've mostly been doing 3 gate expand or FFE into trying to do some kind of pressure with Stargate/6 gate but it's nearly always flat out killed and I end up behind. I've tried playing safe and taking a third, but the Zerg just drones and then kills me with a roach infestor deathball 10 minutes later. I'd love some new way of pressuring them. Especially on maps like Xelnaga caverns where the natural is really wide, I feel really nervous pushing out. If I don't expand and I try to go two base collusus, the same thing happens. Would really like some advice, thanks!
On September 18 2011 08:08 zSnowy wrote: ZvP. Lately I've really been struggling with trying to pressure the Zerg so he doesn't just drone up and amove me. I've mostly been doing 3 gate expand or FFE into trying to do some kind of pressure with Stargate/6 gate but it's nearly always flat out killed and I end up behind. I've tried playing safe and taking a third, but the Zerg just drones and then kills me with a roach infestor deathball 10 minutes later. I'd love some new way of pressuring them. Especially on maps like Xelnaga caverns where the natural is really wide, I feel really nervous pushing out. If I don't expand and I try to go two base collusus, the same thing happens. Would really like some advice, thanks!
I'm having a lot of trouble scouting PvZ, because it seems to me like a lot of tech choices can just get totally blind-countered. You need Templar against Ling/Infestor, Colossi vs Roach/Hydra, Blink Stalkers vs Mutalisks, etc. Is there any sort of all-purpose build that works against all of these, or do I just have to get really solid Hallucinated Phoenix timings, or is there any other solution?
On September 18 2011 12:17 Animostas wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble scouting PvZ, because it seems to me like a lot of tech choices can just get totally blind-countered. You need Templar against Ling/Infestor, Colossi vs Roach/Hydra, Blink Stalkers vs Mutalisks, etc. Is there any sort of all-purpose build that works against all of these, or do I just have to get really solid Hallucinated Phoenix timings, or is there any other solution?
I generally get the robo for observers, since you'll want them to kill creep tumors anyway. You don't have to get templar against ling/infestor as long as you aren't trying to kill them immediately, and you can secure your 3rd handily against ling infestor with colossi as long as you play defensively. If he's still going heavy infestor after you've taken your third, then I would add in templar. The robo does let you defend against almost any zerg aggression though that is standard right now, and you have time to transition to almost anything to counter what zerg does if the robo doesn't help.
When opening FFE vs Zerg if you don't scout them in the first location you have to blind forge or risk losing to an early pool. When you then scout them before the forge completes and you see that everything is normal is better to cancel the forge and 15 nex or let it complete and 17 nex? I've seen both varations from korean pros and I have to imagine one of the options is strictly superior.
On September 18 2011 12:17 Animostas wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble scouting PvZ, because it seems to me like a lot of tech choices can just get totally blind-countered. You need Templar against Ling/Infestor, Colossi vs Roach/Hydra, Blink Stalkers vs Mutalisks, etc. Is there any sort of all-purpose build that works against all of these, or do I just have to get really solid Hallucinated Phoenix timings, or is there any other solution?
If you get hallucination right after wg off a sentry expand you should always be able to spot his tech. Off FFE into stargate use one phoenix to fly over his main and nat if you don't know what you are facing.
On September 18 2011 15:08 Jaeger wrote: When opening FFE vs Zerg if you don't scout them in the first location you have to blind forge or risk losing to an early pool. When you then scout them before the forge completes and you see that everything is normal is better to cancel the forge and 15 nex or let it complete and 17 nex? I've seen both varations from korean pros and I have to imagine one of the options is strictly superior.
Let the forge complete, you'll want it for upgrades, and you will probably want a cannon or two to prevent the zerg from killing you with an all-in, which they'll do often if you don't have the cannon up.
On September 18 2011 12:17 Animostas wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble scouting PvZ, because it seems to me like a lot of tech choices can just get totally blind-countered. You need Templar against Ling/Infestor, Colossi vs Roach/Hydra, Blink Stalkers vs Mutalisks, etc. Is there any sort of all-purpose build that works against all of these, or do I just have to get really solid Hallucinated Phoenix timings, or is there any other solution?
By blind picking a tech, you turn the game into a very big coin flip. By relying on hallucinated phoenix or robo and an obs, you become too passive and let your opponent play too much his own game. The best way to scout and react to your opponent's tech is to put on some type of pressure and see what units/tech he responds with. This is not a necessity at lower-mid levels of play, but is very important as you go higher up. It is one of the key differences between mid/high masters and top master/grandmaster.
Can someone help my decision making in PvP? I really am lost in this match-up as it feels like ''once you get ahead, getting further ahead makes you dead.'' I normal start off with day[[9]/NoNy's build and I really don't know how to carry on from there. If I scouted double gas I add on a twilight and go blink Immortal then try to expand and go chargelot archon. But once I win a battle or kill a couple of units I don't really know what to do.. I seem lost. When should I stop making drones? When should I expand? When should I tech? If I scout and expo is it best to expo yourself or try to kill it? I know these are a lot of questions and reps don't really help me. If you could help maybe PMing me would be best? If not reply on here :D thank you. P.S Plat P.P.S wall of text sorry
On September 18 2011 12:17 Animostas wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble scouting PvZ, because it seems to me like a lot of tech choices can just get totally blind-countered. You need Templar against Ling/Infestor, Colossi vs Roach/Hydra, Blink Stalkers vs Mutalisks, etc. Is there any sort of all-purpose build that works against all of these, or do I just have to get really solid Hallucinated Phoenix timings, or is there any other solution?
By blind picking a tech, you turn the game into a very big coin flip. By relying on hallucinated phoenix or robo and an obs, you become too passive and let your opponent play too much his own game. The best way to scout and react to your opponent's tech is to put on some type of pressure and see what units/tech he responds with. This is not a necessity at lower-mid levels of play, but is very important as you go higher up. It is one of the key differences between mid/high masters and top master/grandmaster.
Would you say that's why stargate followups to expands are so popular in pvz these days? They really don't seem that threatening anymore, yet pro's still often go that route...
On September 19 2011 01:18 Abusion wrote: Can someone help my decision making in PvP? I really am lost in this match-up as it feels like ''once you get ahead, getting further ahead makes you dead.'' I normal start off with day[[9]/NoNy's build and I really don't know how to carry on from there. If I scouted double gas I add on a twilight and go blink Immortal then try to expand and go chargelot archon. But once I win a battle or kill a couple of units I don't really know what to do.. I seem lost. When should I stop making drones? When should I expand? When should I tech? If I scout and expo is it best to expo yourself or try to kill it? I know these are a lot of questions and reps don't really help me. If you could help maybe PMing me would be best? If not reply on here :D thank you. P.S Plat P.P.S wall of text sorry
A good place and probably the only place I know to read about PvP decision making is my robo twilight guide linked in my profile. Other than that, the best I can recommend you is to post a specific replay and have people look at it. Your questions are very vague and at there's really no way to give good definitive answers without knowing a specific situation.
On September 19 2011 01:21 Teoita wrote: Would you say that's why stargate followups to expands are so popular in pvz these days? They really don't seem that threatening anymore, yet pro's still often go that route...
Yes, I would say that this is a big reason stargate is rather popular after forge fe. Other reasons I would say:
It's rather effective at stopping early roach allins, however rare they are. It lets you take map control. It limits the zerg's unit composition. They have to have something to attack air, so for example pure roach/baneling drop is no longer an option. It kills scouting overlords. The biggest reason: It's very flexible. There are a lot of followups possible; I can probably name 10 off the top of my head. This, combined with killing scouting overlords, forces zerg to prepare for a number of things so they may not react as optimally to what you're doing.
So ive been working with a fast obs or hallucinate to scout PvZ after an expo to see what tech path is chosen (if pokes show only lings).
If i see infestor ling i generally get zealot - HT composition with some stalkers and archons as I can afford them. While im slowly getting better at reading the game the problem I have comes when broodlords begin to come out. By then I generally have a decent stalk ball and storm lings as they move towards my zealots. However I can never seem so snipe the broodlords in time and i slowly die to counter attacks after i kill the initial push.
When playing the zealot sentry into stalkers or void style against an infestor brood game play style (with lings as the main ground unit) should i be taking faster expansions and focus on that aspect or should I try to push in the later mid game when i scout hive is being researched?
On September 19 2011 02:11 ZeromuS wrote: So ive been working with a fast obs or hallucinate to scout PvZ after an expo to see what tech path is chosen (if pokes show only lings).
If i see infestor ling i generally get zealot - HT composition with some stalkers and archons as I can afford them. While im slowly getting better at reading the game the problem I have comes when broodlords begin to come out. By then I generally have a decent stalk ball and storm lings as they move towards my zealots. However I can never seem so snipe the broodlords in time and i slowly die to counter attacks after i kill the initial push.
When playing the zealot sentry into stalkers or void style against an infestor brood game play style (with lings as the main ground unit) should i be taking faster expansions and focus on that aspect or should I try to push in the later mid game when i scout hive is being researched?
Hive shouldn't really come until you have at least secured three bases. By the time you see it you should either have enough gateways and eco to mass an army containing both HTs and stalkers. Another way, and easier if you ask me, is to make 2 starports and chrono void rays. If you are going for the colossus voidray stalker deathball you can even get air upgrades.
Hive really is lategame tech and as such you should have enough bases to deal with it in what way you prefer. Take expansions as you would normally but be prepared for brood lords if hive or, preferably, greater spire is scouted.
On September 19 2011 02:11 ZeromuS wrote: So ive been working with a fast obs or hallucinate to scout PvZ after an expo to see what tech path is chosen (if pokes show only lings).
If i see infestor ling i generally get zealot - HT composition with some stalkers and archons as I can afford them. While im slowly getting better at reading the game the problem I have comes when broodlords begin to come out. By then I generally have a decent stalk ball and storm lings as they move towards my zealots. However I can never seem so snipe the broodlords in time and i slowly die to counter attacks after i kill the initial push.
When playing the zealot sentry into stalkers or void style against an infestor brood game play style (with lings as the main ground unit) should i be taking faster expansions and focus on that aspect or should I try to push in the later mid game when i scout hive is being researched?
I don't really know how to answer your actual question, because I see a few things that could be better in your initial strategy.
Zealots are a double-edged sword versus infestor ling. While they are great initially versus infestor ling, they become very useless once either banelings or broodlords are introduced into the mix. When broodlords come into play, you want to have as few zealots in your main army as possible. In addition, when there's lots of broodlords, it's almost a necessity to have either archons or collosi in your army in a good number. The reason is that while templar are great aoe, they don't deal enough consistent AoE damage to kill the broodlings, which will slowly pick away at your blink stalkers.
EPT
