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Hi, I'm back for another question! I've reached the point where I feel limited by the Protoss race in terms of multitasking potential. I can average ~250APM without a conscious effort put into it and jump that up into the low-mid 300s if there are multitasking opportunities, but that's just what I'm curious about. However, I noticed that so much of this APM is going to waste if nothing is going on, I'm consciously doing nothing outside my base because I feel so confined.
What are my best allocations of multi-tasking as Protoss? More and more I feel required to hide in my base with all of my army instead of using small scouting/harassment parties of units. Zerg can punish scouting parties hard with speedlings and Terran bio is mobile enough to do the same if I don't stay incredibly conservative (FUUUU concussive shell).
I've turned to Warp-prism&zealot harasses, but they require so little attention and multi-tasking. So much can be done with queued commands that I can hardly consider this a worthy multi-task dump.
I've dabbled in Phoenix play and see it's potential against both Terran and Zerg (not against Protoss, though...can anyone share experience with effective Phoenix play against Protoss?) However, I feel like Phoenix are incredibly fragile and become borderline useless if responded to properly. AND I haven't found any safe Stargate openings to my liking. I'm going to work on some 2-base Robo(Col.)/Stargate mid-game strategies tomorrow, but I'm unsure of the effectiveness just yet. Can anyone share experiences, again?
Are there any other things I can do to be a constant thorn in the enemy's side?
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What can I do after fending off a 6 pool? The zerg always seems to be in a completely recoverable position.
My cannon never seems to be up in time when I scout it and he usualy manages to take out one of the buildings that's walling off. Not too much damage is done though just delayed cyber core/ 1-2 probe losses.
I assume I am in a very good position, and play it out normally from there and make sure he's not expanding everywhere. Then I lose in an army vs army situation.
How should I follow up against a 6 pool basically?
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On September 19 2011 02:45 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What can I do after fending off a 6 pool? The zerg always seems to be in a completely recoverable position.
My cannon never seems to be up in time when I scout it and he usualy manages to take out one of the buildings that's walling off. Not too much damage is done though just delayed cyber core/ 1-2 probe losses.
I assume I am in a very good position, and play it out normally from there and make sure he's not expanding everywhere. Then I lose in an army vs army situation.
How should I follow up against a 6 pool basically?
If you cannon up then u're on equal with Z, since 300 minerals is huge investment that early on. I advice 2 gating, unless you're doing FFE of course. To buy time for zealot to pop, keep build/cancel/rebuild pylon at the entrance, if lings manage to get in and start pokin at pylon which powers gates then just poke them with 5-6 probes, run away as he tries to hit back and repeat until zeal is out.
Followup either 4gate or 2-3gate stargate. Stargate better since cheesers often make 2-3 spines expecting 4gate(very common response). Anything later will let him to catch up ;\ Most likely zerg will be aiming for roach rush followup or muta rush. Either way you should claim free win with 2-3gate + stargate, unless u miss micro or get 3+ probes killed by 6pool.
Edit: you may wonder if 2gate isn't overinvesting aswell. Thing is that you're mobile and can force more lings and you know after 6pooling every drone counts, forcing 8 lings might mean 20% less income for next minute for zerg. It's huge ain't it? :D
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On September 18 2011 07:23 Latedi wrote:
Listen I don't give a fuck what you people say. I even saw MC do EXACTLY the same build as I did. I have no reason to prove anything to anyone and I will continue to use my build without any problems.
Don't post advice if you're not willing to back it up with evidence.
I also think that 3 gate robo is not viable. I'm back from vacation in a couple of days, if you want to try it out with me I'd be glad to help sort this issue out.
Even IF it works, I'm pretty sure the timings would have to be ultra precise and it wouldn't be a good build to suggest to new players though.
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On September 19 2011 02:40 maasai_ wrote:
Hi, I'm back for another question! I've reached the point where I feel limited by the Protoss race in terms of multitasking potential. I can average ~250APM without a conscious effort put into it and jump that up into the low-mid 300s if there are multitasking opportunities, but that's just what I'm curious about. However, I noticed that so much of this APM is going to waste if nothing is going on, I'm consciously doing nothing outside my base because I feel so confined.
What are my best allocations of multi-tasking as Protoss? More and more I feel required to hide in my base with all of my army instead of using small scouting/harassment parties of units. Zerg can punish scouting parties hard with speedlings and Terran bio is mobile enough to do the same if I don't stay incredibly conservative (FUUUU concussive shell).
I've turned to Warp-prism&zealot harasses, but they require so little attention and multi-tasking. So much can be done with queued commands that I can hardly consider this a worthy multi-task dump.
I've dabbled in Phoenix play and see it's potential against both Terran and Zerg (not against Protoss, though...can anyone share experience with effective Phoenix play against Protoss?) However, I feel like Phoenix are incredibly fragile and become borderline useless if responded to properly. AND I haven't found any safe Stargate openings to my liking. I'm going to work on some 2-base Robo(Col.)/Stargate mid-game strategies tomorrow, but I'm unsure of the effectiveness just yet. Can anyone share experiences, again?
Are there any other things I can do to be a constant thorn in the enemy's side?
Phoenixes, zealot warp-ins, blink stalkers, constant army movement (to force him to keep the bulk of his army near yours) works very well together.
I am actually a multi-tasker lategame (I play Terran as offrace so I love harassing).
In midgame your harass choices are very limited because this is when zerg or terran has a big army and they just want to kill you before you get into deathball mode. That forces you to just group up your army and defend THEIR multipronged attacks.
When you're in lategame however, it switches to Protoss. With warp prisms, mass warp gates, and almost all the tech you would ever want off of around 4-6 bases, you have "unlimited harass".
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On September 19 2011 04:04 iChau wrote:
Phoenixes, zealot warp-ins, blink stalkers, constant army movement (to force him to keep the bulk of his army near yours) works very well together.
I am actually a multi-tasker lategame (I play Terran as offrace so I love harassing).
In midgame your harass choices are very limited because this is when zerg or terran has a big army and they just want to kill you before you get into deathball mode. That forces you to just group up your army and defend THEIR multipronged attacks.
When you're in lategame however, it switches to Protoss. With warp prisms, mass warp gates, and almost all the tech you would ever want off of around 4-6 bases, you have "unlimited harass".
I disagree, though. I feel that late-game the harass options for Zerg and Terran open up ever further while Protoss is further narrowed.
If your army isn't in/around your base late-game, Zergling run-bys and large drops from Terran in your main can ruin your day. Ling run-bys much less so with proper sim-city&cannons, but Marauder drops are the bane of my existence. Warp-prism play is shut down by spines/spores combo at every expansion by late-game zerg, unless you have 16+ supply open for large zealot/DT warp-ins. Terran drops can snipe expansions so easily compared to any harass I can do to snipe their expansions...I can probably deny them mining, but to *kill* a Terran expansion I need a good chunk of my army available, probably all of it if they went for PF. Is there an effective method of sniping Terran expansions for Protoss?
And then clearing out mineral lines...storm drops seem the only real effective method, am I wrong?
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On September 19 2011 03:48 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 07:23 Latedi wrote:
Listen I don't give a fuck what you people say. I even saw MC do EXACTLY the same build as I did. I have no reason to prove anything to anyone and I will continue to use my build without any problems. Don't post advice if you're not willing to back it up with evidence. I also think that 3 gate robo is not viable. I'm back from vacation in a couple of days, if you want to try it out with me I'd be glad to help sort this issue out. Even IF it works, I'm pretty sure the timings would have to be ultra precise and it wouldn't be a good build to suggest to new players though.
Please do, I'd be glad to make it clear for my self as well. Basically you chronoboost the first gate once to end up with zealot stalker stalker sentry before wg finishes. They will be delay a little but no pylons will be made under the ramp. You are in YAO Gaming right? I'll stay logged in until I go to sleep probably.
Edit: Where can I find the vods of the MC stream (restream?)? It should be in there somewhere.
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On September 19 2011 04:54 maasai_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 04:04 iChau wrote:
Phoenixes, zealot warp-ins, blink stalkers, constant army movement (to force him to keep the bulk of his army near yours) works very well together.
I am actually a multi-tasker lategame (I play Terran as offrace so I love harassing).
In midgame your harass choices are very limited because this is when zerg or terran has a big army and they just want to kill you before you get into deathball mode. That forces you to just group up your army and defend THEIR multipronged attacks.
When you're in lategame however, it switches to Protoss. With warp prisms, mass warp gates, and almost all the tech you would ever want off of around 4-6 bases, you have "unlimited harass". I disagree, though. I feel that late-game the harass options for Zerg and Terran open up ever further while Protoss is further narrowed. If your army isn't in/around your base late-game, Zergling run-bys and large drops from Terran in your main can ruin your day. Ling run-bys much less so with proper sim-city&cannons, but Marauder drops are the bane of my existence. Warp-prism play is shut down by spines/spores combo at every expansion by late-game zerg, unless you have 16+ supply open for large zealot/DT warp-ins. Terran drops can snipe expansions so easily compared to any harass I can do to snipe their expansions...I can probably deny them mining, but to *kill* a Terran expansion I need a good chunk of my army available, probably all of it if they went for PF. Is there an effective method of sniping Terran expansions for Protoss? And then clearing out mineral lines...storm drops seem the only real effective method, am I wrong?
Well if you're getting dropped late-game even though you have phoenixes and observers around the map, something is wrong.
I don't see how Protoss's harass is further narrowed. Most Protoss player know that Protoss has very limited harass early to mid-game aside from early stargate/early warp prism play. How is not having more tech and more gateways NOT opening up your harassment options?
It all opens up when Protoss starts getting great economy. The thing is that Protoss relies on warping, NOT DROPS, to harass (with the warp prism). The only units that are worth dropping are high templars and immortals, but otherwise, you want to warp-in with the numerous amounts of warpgates that you have.
When you see defenses at an area, why would you have to attack it? Their tech is arguably just as valuable as their economy.
I sometimes use immortals occasionally to take down the 1 or 2 crawlers at the expo to open up an area for my zealots to be able to do damage though. I try to roam with my warp prism, constantly checking out other possible expo locations and denying it with DT warp-ins.
And as everyone knows, upgraded zealots destroy bases fairly quickly (and the defense too). If Terran is making PFs, you should be happy as that means he can't get a lot of mules (mass Orbitals). You can use blink stalkers to harass from the high ground or lowground and use storm drops to keep his SCV count down.
I prefer warping into the opponent's main to destroy a lot of his production while pushing in with my main army to his undefended expoes (besides the PF).
Roaming with warp prisms, air, and your army is really annoying to your opponent.
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On September 19 2011 05:19 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 03:48 Geiko wrote:On September 18 2011 07:23 Latedi wrote:
Listen I don't give a fuck what you people say. I even saw MC do EXACTLY the same build as I did. I have no reason to prove anything to anyone and I will continue to use my build without any problems. Don't post advice if you're not willing to back it up with evidence. I also think that 3 gate robo is not viable. I'm back from vacation in a couple of days, if you want to try it out with me I'd be glad to help sort this issue out. Even IF it works, I'm pretty sure the timings would have to be ultra precise and it wouldn't be a good build to suggest to new players though. Please do, I'd be glad to make it clear for my self as well. Basically you chronoboost the first gate once to end up with zealot stalker stalker sentry before wg finishes. They will be delay a little but no pylons will be made under the ramp. You are in YAO Gaming right? I'll stay logged in until I go to sleep probably. Edit: Where can I find the vods of the MC stream (restream?)? It should be in there somewhere.
I have been trying to make a super-tight robo build for PvP. But to be honest, I cant get it to work with just 1 gate robo, let alone 3 gate robo. Some problems I have:
I need to go zealot > sentry > stalker > stalker to get enough energy for 2 forcefields. But I need to go zealot > stalker > stalker > sentry to stop the pylons at my ramp. So I basically can only forcefield the ramp once. With only one forcefield you wont get the second immortal out in time, so at best you are 1 zealot, 1 sentry, 3 stalker and 1 immortal vs 1 zealot 6 stalker. The 4-gating opponent wins because he can micro back injured stalkers until his next warpin, which will always contain at least 2 zealots.
Since I cant get 2 immortals out in time anyway, why not cut the sentry? Then I can have 1 zealot 4 stalkers and an immortal vs 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. Same problem though, he runs away and then beats you after one or two more warpins.
I really dont see where you are finding the extra 300 minerals for 2 more gateways though, let alone money to produce from them. I toyed with this build for hours vs AI to get orders that worked, before I used it vs players. I could barely get 20 probes, 1 gateway and 1 robo producing. You cant go gas first (before gateway) because that just delays everything and you mis your 5:50 warpgate timing. But if you spent the minerals on your second gas then you cant afford to chrono immortals as well as many zealots/stalkers from even 1 gateway.
If you really have a build that defends a 4 gate with immortals then I would really like to know it, as I just cant get it to work. And believe me I have tried: I have a 95+% win rate in games that last more than 15 minutes, so I would love to drag PvP into a macro/tech game.
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Can someone take a look at this replay and give me some tips against the 1/1/1?
http://drop.sc/35924
This was the second game we played, the first time I knew I could break down his wall so I added 2 more gates after the 20 nexus 3gate and went and killed him, so I knew the 1/1/1 was coming this time (and it's expected when you scout a bunker with marines at the wall). I tried to respond how I thought was best (chargelots, immortals, enough stalkers for the banshees) and it ended up working however I feel that if my opponent wasn't terrible I would have easily lost.
I'm a low level player by the way if you haven't already figured it out :D
I know I should have scouted better and engaged in the middle of the map, I ended up floating a lot of money because I was busy thinking how I should respond.
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On September 19 2011 05:43 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 05:19 Latedi wrote:On September 19 2011 03:48 Geiko wrote:On September 18 2011 07:23 Latedi wrote:
Listen I don't give a fuck what you people say. I even saw MC do EXACTLY the same build as I did. I have no reason to prove anything to anyone and I will continue to use my build without any problems. Don't post advice if you're not willing to back it up with evidence. I also think that 3 gate robo is not viable. I'm back from vacation in a couple of days, if you want to try it out with me I'd be glad to help sort this issue out. Even IF it works, I'm pretty sure the timings would have to be ultra precise and it wouldn't be a good build to suggest to new players though. Please do, I'd be glad to make it clear for my self as well. Basically you chronoboost the first gate once to end up with zealot stalker stalker sentry before wg finishes. They will be delay a little but no pylons will be made under the ramp. You are in YAO Gaming right? I'll stay logged in until I go to sleep probably. Edit: Where can I find the vods of the MC stream (restream?)? It should be in there somewhere. I have been trying to make a super-tight robo build for PvP. But to be honest, I cant get it to work with just 1 gate robo, let alone 3 gate robo. Some problems I have: I need to go zealot > sentry > stalker > stalker to get enough energy for 2 forcefields. But I need to go zealot > stalker > stalker > sentry to stop the pylons at my ramp. So I basically can only forcefield the ramp once. With only one forcefield you wont get the second immortal out in time, so at best you are 1 zealot, 1 sentry, 3 stalker and 1 immortal vs 1 zealot 6 stalker. The 4-gating opponent wins because he can micro back injured stalkers until his next warpin, which will always contain at least 2 zealots. Since I cant get 2 immortals out in time anyway, why not cut the sentry? Then I can have 1 zealot 4 stalkers and an immortal vs 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. Same problem though, he runs away and then beats you after one or two more warpins. I really dont see where you are finding the extra 300 minerals for 2 more gateways though, let alone money to produce from them. I toyed with this build for hours vs AI to get orders that worked, before I used it vs players. I could barely get 20 probes, 1 gateway and 1 robo producing. You cant go gas first (before gateway) because that just delays everything and you mis your 5:50 warpgate timing. But if you spent the minerals on your second gas then you cant afford to chrono immortals as well as many zealots/stalkers from even 1 gateway. If you really have a build that defends a 4 gate with immortals then I would really like to know it, as I just cant get it to work. And believe me I have tried: I have a 95+% win rate in games that last more than 15 minutes, so I would love to drag PvP into a macro/tech game.
My theory is that by having chronoboosted the first gateway once you can deny pylons from a relatively large area around your natural. This is much easier on maps like gstl xel naga fortress than on maps like xel naga caverns obviously. This will delay your warp gates and as such the time when you need to add 2 additional gateways. You can make probes during this period to stay ahead in eco. Then adding 2 gateways, and with the next 100 gas after the sentry you get a robo. This should be around 30/34 and I suggest you make two pylons after the robo goes down. If you can delay the 4gate until your warp in, which was the point of the single chronoboost on the gateway, then you should be able to warp in units when he is at your ramp (I think, around 6:00-6:20 something. Maybe 6:03 if 1 chronoboost = 10 seconds). Then you will end up with 1 zealot, 5 stalkers, 1 sentry vs 1 zealot, 6 stalkers. You only have ONE forcefield so failing to use it perfectly will probably result in a loss but that should not be too hard. However you have the advantage of having more stalkers which means you can deny any pylons under the ramp. Also you have the option of chronoboosting out an immortal if you get the chance.
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what is the new popular style vs zerg? i know ffe is still popular, it just seems like the make or break moment is taking your 3rd and 4th and keeping them so that you can tech to whatever you want. i know on small maps there is 2 gate into nexus and cyber, should i start sending a couple probes to add to the dps on an early game rush? i'm just really unsure of when to rush.
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On September 19 2011 13:44 docvoc wrote:
what is the new popular style vs zerg? i know ffe is still popular, it just seems like the make or break moment is taking your 3rd and 4th and keeping them so that you can tech to whatever you want. i know on small maps there is 2 gate into nexus and cyber, should i start sending a couple probes to add to the dps on an early game rush? i'm just really unsure of when to rush.
There is never a need to rush, and you will end up behind if it is defended. I suggest you make 1-3 gateways and expand off of that. If you can forge FE that is really good for your eco. Either punish greedy zergs with a 6gate/air, or whatever style you prefer, or take a faster third. Tech if zerg is staying on 2 bases for a longer period of time.
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I have a question...
So, doing a 2 gate build, would you net more units faster if you were to ...
1) constantly Build units from your 1st gw
2) Drop 2nd gateway
3)Build core
4)Core and 2ndgw finish about the same time
5) research warp
6) Chrono Warp 1 time
7)spend the rest of the chronos on stalkers/sent/z
8) warp finishings/ warp in 2 units
My question is, how many units could one have at the time your 1st round of units are warped in with only chronoing warp research once, while spending the rest of them on your gateways.
I am at work right now and was thinking about this, I want to get home and try it but that wont be for another 4 hours... anyone want to give this a shot?
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On September 19 2011 02:40 maasai_ wrote:
Hi, I'm back for another question! I've reached the point where I feel limited by the Protoss race in terms of multitasking potential. I can average ~250APM without a conscious effort put into it and jump that up into the low-mid 300s if there are multitasking opportunities, but that's just what I'm curious about. However, I noticed that so much of this APM is going to waste if nothing is going on, I'm consciously doing nothing outside my base because I feel so confined.
What are my best allocations of multi-tasking as Protoss? More and more I feel required to hide in my base with all of my army instead of using small scouting/harassment parties of units. Zerg can punish scouting parties hard with speedlings and Terran bio is mobile enough to do the same if I don't stay incredibly conservative (FUUUU concussive shell).
I've turned to Warp-prism&zealot harasses, but they require so little attention and multi-tasking. So much can be done with queued commands that I can hardly consider this a worthy multi-task dump.
I've dabbled in Phoenix play and see it's potential against both Terran and Zerg (not against Protoss, though...can anyone share experience with effective Phoenix play against Protoss?) However, I feel like Phoenix are incredibly fragile and become borderline useless if responded to properly. AND I haven't found any safe Stargate openings to my liking. I'm going to work on some 2-base Robo(Col.)/Stargate mid-game strategies tomorrow, but I'm unsure of the effectiveness just yet. Can anyone share experiences, again?
Are there any other things I can do to be a constant thorn in the enemy's side?
I don't understand how you aren't finding things to do. I find with my APM there's a lot of stuff I'm missing or not doing well; always room for improvement. Efficient chronoboost usage, good macro and build execution, and smart unit movements/army movements all require a lot of APM just like any other race.
Perhaps the problem is that you can press keys fast but don't know how to play well. I suggest visiting sc2rep.com for a frame of reference in which to compare your play to something better.
On September 19 2011 02:45 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What can I do after fending off a 6 pool? The zerg always seems to be in a completely recoverable position.
My cannon never seems to be up in time when I scout it and he usualy manages to take out one of the buildings that's walling off. Not too much damage is done though just delayed cyber core/ 1-2 probe losses.
I assume I am in a very good position, and play it out normally from there and make sure he's not expanding everywhere. Then I lose in an army vs army situation.
How should I follow up against a 6 pool basically?
If your cannon is never down in time, then place an earlier forge? You should be ahead if you defend correctly.
On September 19 2011 02:59 Porneus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 02:45 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What can I do after fending off a 6 pool? The zerg always seems to be in a completely recoverable position.
My cannon never seems to be up in time when I scout it and he usualy manages to take out one of the buildings that's walling off. Not too much damage is done though just delayed cyber core/ 1-2 probe losses.
I assume I am in a very good position, and play it out normally from there and make sure he's not expanding everywhere. Then I lose in an army vs army situation.
How should I follow up against a 6 pool basically? If you cannon up then u're on equal with Z, since 300 minerals is huge investment that early on. I advice 2 gating, unless you're doing FFE of course. To buy time for zealot to pop, keep build/cancel/rebuild pylon at the entrance, if lings manage to get in and start pokin at pylon which powers gates then just poke them with 5-6 probes, run away as he tries to hit back and repeat until zeal is out. Followup either 4gate or 2-3gate stargate. Stargate better since cheesers often make 2-3 spines expecting 4gate(very common response). Anything later will let him to catch up ;\ Most likely zerg will be aiming for roach rush followup or muta rush. Either way you should claim free win with 2-3gate + stargate, unless u miss micro or get 3+ probes killed by 6pool. Edit: you may wonder if 2gate isn't overinvesting aswell. Thing is that you're mobile and can force more lings and you know after 6pooling every drone counts, forcing 8 lings might mean 20% less income for next minute for zerg. It's huge ain't it? :D
If you cannon up you're not even with a 6 pool? Don't post terrible advice.
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You police this thread well, Cecil. Thanks. _b
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On maps where you its difficult to FFE what build should i do against zerg? I find that if i put up a later expansion like 3gate FE then i fell behind. If i do a stargate opening or DT's then I have to do damage to stay even which i don't like. What are some builds that can be done if i can't FFE?
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On September 20 2011 05:55 Darek97 wrote:
On maps where you its difficult to FFE what build should i do against zerg? I find that if i put up a later expansion like 3gate FE then i fell behind. If i do a stargate opening or DT's then I have to do damage to stay even which i don't like. What are some builds that can be done if i can't FFE?
1 gate FE. Or FFE anyway. Just because FFE is less strong on searing, xel naga, typhon, etc. doesn't make it non-viable.
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 20 2011 05:55 Darek97 wrote:
On maps where you its difficult to FFE what build should i do against zerg? I find that if i put up a later expansion like 3gate FE then i fell behind. If i do a stargate opening or DT's then I have to do damage to stay even which i don't like. What are some builds that can be done if i can't FFE?
Against a speedling expand i usually 2gate sentry expand; economy wise i think you are reasonably close. If he delays his gas i still like to 2gate expand, but i open with a 2stalker rush.
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EPT
