EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 63
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On September 22 2011 11:00 Kluey wrote: Guys, if you are in a PvP situation where you just held off a 4 gate or some kind of early agression. When should you get your colossus or should you even? Depends if it was a 2 gate, proxy 2 gate, proxy 3 gate (4gate), or 4 gate. It also depends on if you took losses or not. Assuming you went for an anti-4 gate build and took no losses, you'll be ahead. Go for robo, scout with your obs. If you see twilight transition, check for blink or charge through unit composition. If blink, go heavy immortal then throw up your own twilight. If charge, go colossi, and get zealots. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On September 22 2011 11:18 eugalp wrote: On Taldarim, is it ever safe to transition to Robo/Colossus or is blink basically a must after the 4-gate stage? I didn't see any replies to this so I'll take a whack at it. I'll go into a bit of detail. The key thing to remember is that prior to 3+ Colossus, a player with blink stalkers can snipe colossi from your army and blink away without losing more than a stalker or two. This means its very dangerous to be out and moving around the map. As well, because of the size of Tal'Darim, you can't easily cross the map without exposing your base to a counterattack. A decent army of blink stalkers can kill a base quite quickly, and will nearly always win a base race. This makes robo builds very dangerous if you intend to remain on one base and attempt to win the game. The reason why transitioning into blink is so popular from a 4gate on Tal'Darim is because 1) there is no ramp, so you can poke in and out firing shots at an opponent's army, which a blink army excels at and 2) you already have four gateways - to throw down a robo means some of those gateways won't be doing anything for the rest of the game as you can't afford to produce out of them all. Its all about making the most of the tech you have already invested. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
On September 22 2011 12:38 Dhalphir wrote: I didn't see any replies to this so I'll take a whack at it. I'll go into a bit of detail. The key thing to remember is that prior to 3+ Colossus, a player with blink stalkers can snipe colossi from your army and blink away without losing more than a stalker or two. This means its very dangerous to be out and moving around the map. As well, because of the size of Tal'Darim, you can't easily cross the map without exposing your base to a counterattack. A decent army of blink stalkers can kill a base quite quickly, and will nearly always win a base race. This makes robo builds very dangerous if you intend to remain on one base and attempt to win the game. The reason why transitioning into blink is so popular from a 4gate on Tal'Darim is because 1) there is no ramp, so you can poke in and out firing shots at an opponent's army, which a blink army excels at and 2) you already have four gateways - to throw down a robo means some of those gateways won't be doing anything for the rest of the game as you can't afford to produce out of them all. Its all about making the most of the tech you have already invested. + you usually have a pretty stalker heavy army left. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
On September 22 2011 12:07 mizU wrote: Depends if it was a 2 gate, proxy 2 gate, proxy 3 gate (4gate), or 4 gate. It also depends on if you took losses or not. Assuming you went for an anti-4 gate build and took no losses, you'll be ahead. Go for robo, scout with your obs. If you see twilight transition, check for blink or charge through unit composition. If blink, go heavy immortal then throw up your own twilight. If charge, go colossi, and get zealots. at the moment, you can do anything. if someone is still stupid enough to 4 gate (you can acutally hold a 4 gate with 2 gates easily with 1.4), you can simply follow the plan you already had and go for immortal --> colossus, immortal --> blink, pure blink or even cannon expand or phoenix-play. Every build has its weakness and its strengh, the defended 4 gate doesnt change too much, it just makes the opponent feel uncomfortable. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On September 22 2011 12:38 Dhalphir wrote: I didn't see any replies to this so I'll take a whack at it. ... Makes sense, thanks. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 22 2011 12:43 DiaBoLuS wrote: at the moment, you can do anything. if someone is still stupid enough to 4 gate (you can acutally hold a 4 gate with 2 gates easily with 1.4), you can simply follow the plan you already had and go for immortal --> colossus, immortal --> blink, pure blink or even cannon expand or phoenix-play. Every build has its weakness and its strengh, the defended 4 gate doesnt change too much, it just makes the opponent feel uncomfortable. Do you mind uploading a replay of you defending a 4gate with 2 gates? I'd love to see that  Also I believe defending 4gate puts you ahead. If the opponent cut probes and invested resources in extra gates and units while staying on one gas. So you should be ahead in both economy and tech. | ||
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habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
I usually open with 10 gate fast robo or defensive 3 gate + robo, but after that I'm quite lost. The things I'm not sure about, I guess depending on the circumstances, are: 1. Should I tech to colossus asap, pump immortals or maybe add twilight? 2. If going for colossus should I go for 1 base all in or expand? Should I get range and when? 3. When to expand in general? After 1st colossus, range, 2 immortals, when blink is done, after opponent expands? 4. When is a good time to get forge and start getting upgrades? That's a lot of questions, but PvP feels like the most random matchup for me. I'm high diamond and I sometimes beat master players while other times I lose to platinums. I'd appreciate some general, standard game plan which I could work on. A replay would be great as well. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 22 2011 19:56 habermas wrote: After 1.4 what do you think is the best "standard" way to play PvP. With 4 gate and blink nerf, and immortal buff, fast robo seems to be the way to go. I usually open with 10 gate fast robo or defensive 3 gate + robo, but after that I'm quite lost. The things I'm not sure about, I guess depending on the circumstances, are: 1. Should I tech to colossus asap, pump immortals or maybe add twilight? 2. If going for colossus should I go for 1 base all in or expand? Should I get range and when? 3. When to expand in general? After 1st colossus, range, 2 immortals, when blink is done, after opponent expands? 4. When is a good time to get forge and start getting upgrades? That's a lot of questions, but PvP feels like the most random matchup for me. I'm high diamond and I sometimes beat master players while other times I lose to platinums. I'd appreciate some general, standard game plan which I could work on. A replay would be great as well. 1. If you go colossus you probably have to all in or turtle really well on 2 bases, depending on when your opponent expands (if he goes twilight). Immortals are good against blink stalkers who almost everyone are getting right now so I'd say get immortals, then blink and expand. 2. If he expands a lot earlier than you you will have to all in otherwise you can expand. Get range when you can afford it without dying, or for a timing push. 3. This is very situational. Going colossus you want to expand as fast as possible without cutting colossi production. If you go immortal against blink stalkers you can expand when you have 2-3 of them. With blink you can expand when you have map control against robo or enough blink stalkers / a good position against other blink builds. Expanding after the opponent expands is usually safe but sometimes it's a better idea to attack first and see if you can get anything done. 4. Get a forge when you are safe on 2 bases, if you want it that is. It is also possible to get it for weird 1 base timing pushes or fast expands. This is kind of how I do it... Not sure if these are good decisions, at least I have a 50% win rate. I also have no idea what changes might occur now with 1.4 | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On September 22 2011 21:20 mizU wrote: Fast robo in PvP is pretty much the safest thing to do, since you can get out an early obs, and REACT to what the other player is doing. Out of curiosity, what do you do when your observer scouts colossus tech? | ||
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On September 22 2011 21:26 Latedi wrote: Out of curiosity, what do you do when your observer scouts colossus tech? Punish him. Colossi THAT fast after you get a fast robo means he's missing something. Go heavy immortal, or go for stargate. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 22 2011 23:54 mizU wrote: Punish him. Colossi THAT fast after you get a fast robo means he's missing something. Go heavy immortal, or go for stargate. Terrible advice. Just really terrible advice from mizU in both cases. Opening fast robo is by far not the safest thing you can do. You say "Colossi THAT fast", when you don't even have any idea how fast he scouts collosi. Also, you cannot punish a collosi build when you open robo yourself. There's a lot of advice in this thread that isn't completely wrong, but not exactly the best answer to the question asked. I'm too lazy to respond to all of those, but I gotta catch the blatantly wrong ones. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On September 23 2011 00:55 4kmonk wrote: Terrible advice. Just really terrible advice from mizU in both cases. Opening fast robo is by far not the safest thing you can do. You say "Colossi THAT fast", when you don't even have any idea how fast he scouts collosi. Also, you cannot punish a collosi build when you open robo yourself. I agree with this, there is no point trying to catch up or "punish" fast colossus builds. If you opened something like 3 stalker robo/defensive 3 gate, you can scout what your opponent is doing relatively quickly assuming you plop a robo down after the 4 gate timing. Against fast colossus, blink followup is the best imo. If he allins you, base race, if not, harrass and take an expansion before him. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On September 23 2011 00:55 4kmonk wrote: Terrible advice. Just really terrible advice from mizU in both cases. Opening fast robo is by far not the safest thing you can do. You say "Colossi THAT fast", when you don't even have any idea how fast he scouts collosi. Also, you cannot punish a collosi build when you open robo yourself. There's a lot of advice in this thread that isn't completely wrong, but not exactly the best answer to the question asked. I'm too lazy to respond to all of those, but I gotta catch the blatantly wrong ones. In that case, four-gate is the safest thing you can do. | ||
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socommaster123
United States578 Posts
Also question in PvT if they go fast bio ball is it best to go fast templar or try to get collosus right away? | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On September 23 2011 02:25 socommaster123 wrote: IS anyone willing masters or higher to help me with my protoss play. I am diamond zerg swapping to protoss now, I have previously won over 60 protoss matches before turning zerg. Im on NA and looking for a masters or higher player to help me refine my play. Also question in PvT if they go fast bio ball is it best to go fast templar or try to get collosus right away? Regarding PvT, it depends. Number of racks, add-ons, ghost support, medivacs, etc. Generally you want to hit a timing before they get sufficient medivacs out OR before they get ghosts. Depending on the size of the bio ball, and their tech, you can choose a tech path. Obviously if you already have one going, follow that tech path. But, don't get stuck on it. Make sure once you get a few templar with storm or colossi out, you start the other one right away, because Terran can counter your AoE units surprisingly quickly. I like to go robo first for the obs, then get colossi, then as you get your twilight for charge and blink and +2, go for storm. You can absolutely go twilight first though. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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Chelch
United Kingdom159 Posts
Could anyone point me to some general guide for PvZ (preferably after going forge FE) or maybe a good replay pack? Failing that, just some general advice on what to do, what buildings to make and when I should tech, when I need to take a third, just explain PvZ to be like Im bronze ^^.. Oh, and if anyone could tell me the best response to a really early third (like between 4-6 minutes) I'd really appreciate that. | ||
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