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On May 24 2012 17:34 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 13:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 05:39 morevox wrote:
Been having trouble against mass banshee play. Sometimes up to 20+ banshees. They seem to melt through all my stalkers and the marines target down my phoniex. I can try to get high templar to feedback but by then he has done huge damage to my base and I fall behind economically.
Any suggestions? Stalkers are very ineffective against mass phoenix. As soon as you scout double starport, drop a stargate and 3-5 cannons at your natural. Chrono out phoenix, warp in zealots and 4 sentries. The zealots and cannons will handle the marines if you use FF to stop kiting, and the phoenixes will shut down banshees. It's still not easy though. This is wrong. Trying to go into phoenix plays right into the air-terran's hands, as he just transitions into more vikings and battlecruisers and your phoenixes become nothing. Storm is THE only way to go, and to make it even stronger, aggressive blink stalker play.
We're talking about early mass banshee + marines here, not a late-game air-terran...
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Denmark434 Posts
On May 24 2012 17:40 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 17:34 CCalms wrote:On May 24 2012 13:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 05:39 morevox wrote:
Been having trouble against mass banshee play. Sometimes up to 20+ banshees. They seem to melt through all my stalkers and the marines target down my phoniex. I can try to get high templar to feedback but by then he has done huge damage to my base and I fall behind economically.
Any suggestions? Stalkers are very ineffective against mass phoenix. As soon as you scout double starport, drop a stargate and 3-5 cannons at your natural. Chrono out phoenix, warp in zealots and 4 sentries. The zealots and cannons will handle the marines if you use FF to stop kiting, and the phoenixes will shut down banshees. It's still not easy though. This is wrong. Trying to go into phoenix plays right into the air-terran's hands, as he just transitions into more vikings and battlecruisers and your phoenixes become nothing. Storm is THE only way to go, and to make it even stronger, aggressive blink stalker play. We're talking about early mass banshee + marines here, not a late-game air-terran...
20+ Banshees is pretty late I'll say.
Early 2-port play:
Definetly PHX is the answer, 1-2 is good to scare banshees a little bit, if T is going heavy on them, investmets are not high, but compared to T's investment into banshees, it's good.
If he continues to go sky-terran, then:
Though it seem like mass blink stalker should do fine, it's actually not doing so well, especially if a terran adds ravens with PDD.
What helped me out against sky-T is expirience with muta and playing sky-toss vs Zerg right now.
Sky terran will try to attack from different angles, abusing toss mobility and try to eat you up by a little bit.
You will need 2 things:
1. Speed
2. Time
Speed
Your army really need to be mobile, so the good units are:
- Blink stalkers (before PDD)
- Phoenix
- Speed obs
- Mothership FTW (vortex and recall is great at buying time)
Time
You will need time, for your army to reach the attack point and engage terran:
- Cannons (very important)
- HT's w/ storm
Details:
Why Phoenix is better than blink-stalkers?
In one game i found myself in stupid situation - my obs were always shut down, when i was trying to catch T's army.
When Ravens and PDD's were feedbacked my stalker army engaged teerran, but he just cloaked and ran away, but ravens and vikings just auto-killed my obs.
When Phx and speed obs is in play, running is a LOT harder for terran. And Vikings auto-target Phoenix, not obs.
Also vikings do not counter Phoenix in direct engagement.
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On May 24 2012 18:31 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 17:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 17:34 CCalms wrote:On May 24 2012 13:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 05:39 morevox wrote:
Been having trouble against mass banshee play. Sometimes up to 20+ banshees. They seem to melt through all my stalkers and the marines target down my phoniex. I can try to get high templar to feedback but by then he has done huge damage to my base and I fall behind economically.
Any suggestions? Stalkers are very ineffective against mass phoenix. As soon as you scout double starport, drop a stargate and 3-5 cannons at your natural. Chrono out phoenix, warp in zealots and 4 sentries. The zealots and cannons will handle the marines if you use FF to stop kiting, and the phoenixes will shut down banshees. It's still not easy though. This is wrong. Trying to go into phoenix plays right into the air-terran's hands, as he just transitions into more vikings and battlecruisers and your phoenixes become nothing. Storm is THE only way to go, and to make it even stronger, aggressive blink stalker play. We're talking about early mass banshee + marines here, not a late-game air-terran... 20+ Banshees is pretty late I'll say. Early 2-port play: Definetly PHX is the answer, 1-2 is good to scare banshees a little bit, if T is going heavy on them, investmets are not high, but compared to T's investment into banshees, it's good. If he continues to go sky-terran, then: Though it seem like mass blink stalker should do fine, it's actually not doing so well, especially if a terran adds ravens with PDD. What helped me out against sky-T is expirience with muta and playing sky-toss vs Zerg right now. Sky terran will try to attack from different angles, abusing toss mobility and try to eat you up by a little bit. You will need 2 things: 1. Speed 2. Time SpeedYour army really need to be mobile, so the good units are: - Blink stalkers (before PDD) - Phoenix - Speed obs - Mothership FTW (vortex and recall is great at buying time) TimeYou will need time, for your army to reach the attack point and engage terran: - Cannons (very important) - HT's w/ storm Details: Why Phoenix is better than blink-stalkers? In one game i found myself in stupid situation - my obs were always shut down, when i was trying to catch T's army. When Ravens and PDD's were feedbacked my stalker army engaged teerran, but he just cloaked and ran away, but ravens and vikings just auto-killed my obs. When Phx and speed obs is in play, running is a LOT harder for terran. And Vikings auto-target Phoenix, not obs. Also vikings do not counter Phoenix in direct engagement.
Since he said the marines shut his phoenixes down I took the 20+ banshees to be either an exaggeration or that he'd just let things go on for too long. Marine+mass banshee is pretty specific, and since he didn't mention vikings or cattlebruisers I'm pretty sure it's a regular 2-port fast banshee opening, but in the lower leagues meaning every rush will turn into a late mass attack instead since noone usually does anything 
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If the Terran continues to produce banshees after seeing a few pheonix, that's pretty bad.
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Can somebody give me a picture of a good FFE simcity vs Z to use on Entombed?
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hey guys somebody knows some good PvP bo's? im using that 3 stalker rush into 3 gate robo and then it depends how my opponent is playing, but since i got platinum a few days ago i think i need some more bo's for toss vs toss, hope you guys can help me 
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On May 24 2012 17:40 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 17:34 CCalms wrote:On May 24 2012 13:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 05:39 morevox wrote:
Been having trouble against mass banshee play. Sometimes up to 20+ banshees. They seem to melt through all my stalkers and the marines target down my phoniex. I can try to get high templar to feedback but by then he has done huge damage to my base and I fall behind economically.
Any suggestions? Stalkers are very ineffective against mass phoenix. As soon as you scout double starport, drop a stargate and 3-5 cannons at your natural. Chrono out phoenix, warp in zealots and 4 sentries. The zealots and cannons will handle the marines if you use FF to stop kiting, and the phoenixes will shut down banshees. It's still not easy though. This is wrong. Trying to go into phoenix plays right into the air-terran's hands, as he just transitions into more vikings and battlecruisers and your phoenixes become nothing. Storm is THE only way to go, and to make it even stronger, aggressive blink stalker play. We're talking about early mass banshee + marines here, not a late-game air-terran...
No you're not, he said 20+ banshees. Please read.
Phoenix is useful vs 1 base 2port banshee, but they are definitely not necessary. THE ONLY RELIABLE WAY to play against mass starport play is storm. IF YOU GO AIR, THEY WILL BEAT YOU because they already have at least four starports in cycle. Yes, if they are bad they will not scout you and keep making banshees, but I am here to give actual good advice. Vikings and battlecruisers will beat any transition you attempt to make. If you go storm, it's so so easy to shut down mass air. There's really no trick. That's why nobody goes mass air.
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On May 25 2012 05:28 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 17:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 17:34 CCalms wrote:On May 24 2012 13:40 TheExodus wrote:On May 24 2012 05:39 morevox wrote:
Been having trouble against mass banshee play. Sometimes up to 20+ banshees. They seem to melt through all my stalkers and the marines target down my phoniex. I can try to get high templar to feedback but by then he has done huge damage to my base and I fall behind economically.
Any suggestions? Stalkers are very ineffective against mass phoenix. As soon as you scout double starport, drop a stargate and 3-5 cannons at your natural. Chrono out phoenix, warp in zealots and 4 sentries. The zealots and cannons will handle the marines if you use FF to stop kiting, and the phoenixes will shut down banshees. It's still not easy though. This is wrong. Trying to go into phoenix plays right into the air-terran's hands, as he just transitions into more vikings and battlecruisers and your phoenixes become nothing. Storm is THE only way to go, and to make it even stronger, aggressive blink stalker play. We're talking about early mass banshee + marines here, not a late-game air-terran... No you're not, he said 20+ banshees. Please read. Phoenix is useful vs 1 base 2port banshee, but they are definitely not necessary. THE ONLY RELIABLE WAY to play against mass starport play is storm. IF YOU GO AIR, THEY WILL BEAT YOU because they already have at least four starports in cycle. Yes, if they are bad they will not scout you and keep making banshees, but I am here to give actual good advice. Vikings and battlecruisers will beat any transition you attempt to make. If you go storm, it's so so easy to shut down mass air. There's really no trick. That's why nobody goes mass air.
CCalms is correct, storm is what you want against banshees, stalkers + observer are good at defending in the beginning, but storm is what you want in the end. This is because not only is it good against marines, but it is good against banshees--you can even storm then while they are cloaked. Also if they get 20+ banshees before you can have storm out there is something bad happening.
20 banshees is about 2000 gas, cloak is 200 gas, and--if they are using 4 Starports--it totals to about about 2700 gas; not to mention each banshee has a build time of 60 seconds.
Now HT, you can get the tech for HT along with storm for 650 gas, and 150 gas for each HT--so you can afford plenty of Templar--stalkers, along with blink and charge; and end up spending a smiler amount of gas to your opponent. Not to mention less time.
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Hi there everyone! Platinum Protoss here and I was just hoping to get some opinions on what the is the current safest build PvP on Tal'Darim Altar. I find myself having more trouble with this map than any other, the slightly larger ramp and or opening to your natural requires two forcefields rather than one and this negates the effectiveness of many holds which are based off of sentry count, for example I would ideally like to use Axslav's 2 Gate Stargate on this map, but even if I go 2 gate before the Stargate, there just aren't enough units/sentries to hold a 4 gate at that ramp very safely, and of course 4 gating seems to be all anyone wants to do on that map. I'm aware that I can 4 gate myself, but I hate the unpredictability and chaotic base tradeiness that ensues from two people 4 gating, regardless of whether I think I could win or not. Alternatively the 3 gate robo is always seeming like a viable option, but I've scoured the forums and the googles and cannot find a standardized 3 gate robo, especially for PvP. I seem to find different versions everywhere. So can anyone shed some light on this for me? Hoping to be graced with some insight! Thanks guys!!! <3
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The only 'safe' option on TDA is a defensive 4 gate which is just a normal 4 gate with a few extra probes. 2 gate stargate will just die to any 4 gate on that map and so will 3 gate robo because they can just warp in a round of zealots and nullify your immo. That's the reason I veto it because I hate 4 gate wars
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On May 25 2012 06:38 Abusion wrote:The only 'safe' option on TDA is a defensive 4 gate which is just a normal 4 gate with a few extra probes. 2 gate stargate will just die to any 4 gate on that map and so will 3 gate robo because they can just warp in a round of zealots and nullify your immo. That's the reason I veto it because I hate 4 gate wars
If you do a defensive 4 gate, can't your opponent just contain you while he expands (Assuming that he 4 gates himself)? Considering he will be positioned with his entire army in your natural trying to break your main, it seems intuitive that once the attacker realizes he won't get through, he could just expand to his clear natural while you are trapped in your main and if you try and break the contain coming out of that choke you know you're dead, especially since we're talking about a mirror build. Since you already have 4 gates doesn't that just leave you screwed since you won't be able to support any other buildings or production off your one base?
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On May 25 2012 05:22 Tommyyy wrote:hey guys somebody knows some good PvP bo's? im using that 3 stalker rush into 3 gate robo and then it depends how my opponent is playing, but since i got platinum a few days ago i think i need some more bo's for toss vs toss, hope you guys can help me
Robo builds are very safe and solid.
3 gate robo before expansion seems a little too safe, unless you're doing some early pressure. Since you're in platinum, it's probably okay, since I assume you'll face a lot of 1-base aggression.
Other good builds:
I really like phoenix play - it's very flexible, gives you great map control, probably the best scouting, and you can adapt to what you see. It's also a good build to help you improve your multitasking. The better you macro and constantly harass/scout with your phoenixes, the more potent phoenix builds become.
Awesome guide on the ins and outs - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637
DT rush or expand is also very strong and it naturally transitions into a zealot/archon style, which is probably a different style than you're used to. Good tool to have in your repertoire.
Sweet DT FE guide by CecilSunkure - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318673
Hope this helps! PvP becomes a lot more fun when you try new things and start to understand that there are a lot of different ways to play the matchup. GL
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It seems a lot of the times I hit Zerg I get proxy hatched (either hatch in my main or hatch in my natural)
Does anybody know the correct way of dealing with this?
I FFE against Zerg on most maps, so I generally pull 3-4 probes and build a pylon and a cannon, I feel this is an overreaction but if it gets up the game essentially ends.
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On May 25 2012 16:38 Toastyzeus wrote:
It seems a lot of the times I hit Zerg I get proxy hatched (either hatch in my main or hatch in my natural)
Does anybody know the correct way of dealing with this?
I FFE against Zerg on most maps, so I generally pull 3-4 probes and build a pylon and a cannon, I feel this is an overreaction but if it gets up the game essentially ends.
I think your reaction sounds fine. I'm curious though; is it the same player doing this, and you end up facing him alot? Because this has happened to me once, and that was like a year ago...
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Nah man, different people. I think it might be the new meta in plat... f**king Catz man
EDIT: Swearing, can I do that?
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On May 25 2012 16:46 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 16:38 Toastyzeus wrote:
It seems a lot of the times I hit Zerg I get proxy hatched (either hatch in my main or hatch in my natural)
Does anybody know the correct way of dealing with this?
I FFE against Zerg on most maps, so I generally pull 3-4 probes and build a pylon and a cannon, I feel this is an overreaction but if it gets up the game essentially ends. I think your reaction sounds fine. I'm curious though; is it the same player doing this, and you end up facing him alot? Because this has happened to me once, and that was like a year ago...
U must get really lucky then. I feel like i get proxy hatched every couple of PvZ games, at master/GM level too.
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I would be super happy if I got proxy hatched every game Or is this some new super-play that is actually hard to beat?
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How do I deal with an marine-scv all-in when I 20 Nexus? I had 2 chronoed stalkers up when he attacked and one gate, WG 50 % complete, more probes than him.
Is it BO-loss or is it some way to get out of it.
I scouted that he had no gas and nothing on the barracks, so I assumed early expand and felt pretty safe. 1st stalker scouted it, but not in time to build buildings on the choke as I had no pylon there yet.
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EPT
