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On March 16 2012 04:44 Kovaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:29 udai wrote:On March 15 2012 14:02 Kovaz wrote:
So I was watching the Genius vs Dongraegu games from the last GSL, trying to steal genius's timings and I came across something that I'm not sure why he does. He seems to save up enough minerals to go nexus first on 17 supply, but then builds his forge first anyway. Doesn't this just make you more vulnerable to something like a 6/7/8 pool for no reason? You'd still get the nexus down at the same time if you went 14 forge 17 nexus wouldn't you? He saves his money at the possibility of getting a nexus first. when he scouts that he cant get away with it he drops the forge. if you are getting 6-7 pooled you will need to build the cannon in your main regardless and the forge will finish in time for that because he has it timed out like that. He losses nothing vs a 10-11 pool because he can still wall off in time. Yeah that makes sense. I'm curious then why the common trend is to go 14 forge when a 17 forge can still hold anything, but still leave nexus first as a possibility. Is it just for the threat of cannon rushing a hatch first? Also, if you could choose, is it better economically for toss to go nexus first against hatch first, or forge first but force pool first?
Can 17 forge really hold early pools no matter what map?
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I had this frustrating match versus a gold terran. I am in silver and around the 14 min mark, I pushed out with 4 collosus no range , 2 att and 0 armor versus a mass bio, 4 viking, 0 medivac 0-0 upgrades. We engaged on the high ground but seeing that many vikings, i pulled my collosus away and tried to snipe vikings off first with stalkers.
1) Should I leave collosus there because they are gonna die anyways?
2) At this time, is chargelots the best choice? Mass bio raped through my stalker army.
3) Storm? I was on 3 bases and denied him a third for about 3 times.
4) what should be my army comp versus mass bio?
What is frustrating is that I denied his third 3 times or so and he was almost mined out. Despite my spamming probes, we had even scv count at about 60~ but I lost 2 big engagements so I was defintely behind. He started to make medivacs and 4 thors and 2-3 siege tanks.
5) what should be my army comp versus biomec?
Thanks  )
Also, he did not do any kind of drop play, I realize that I should have dropped a few dts into his base or do some harassing.
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On March 17 2012 00:08 CommanchyWattkins wrote:I had this frustrating match versus a gold terran. I am in silver and around the 14 min mark, I pushed out with 4 collosus no range , 2 att and 0 armor versus a mass bio, 4 viking, 0 medivac 0-0 upgrades. We engaged on the high ground but seeing that many vikings, i pulled my collosus away and tried to snipe vikings off first with stalkers. 1) Should I leave collosus there because they are gonna die anyways? 2) At this time, is chargelots the best choice? Mass bio raped through my stalker army. 3) Storm? I was on 3 bases and denied him a third for about 3 times. 4) what should be my army comp versus mass bio? What is frustrating is that I denied his third 3 times or so and he was almost mined out. Despite my spamming probes, we had even scv count at about 60~ but I lost 2 big engagements so I was defintely behind. He started to make medivacs and 4 thors and 2-3 siege tanks. 5) what should be my army comp versus biomec? Thanks ) Also, he did not do any kind of drop play, I realize that I should have dropped a few dts into his base or do some harassing.
At 14 mins in you should have collosus range, 4 collosus against for 4 vikings is good for you, Terran should have like 14 vikings against 4 collosus. Forcefields are your best friend against bio, split his army with forcefields and possible forcefield behind his army if he tries to escape.
4 collosus easily can kill whole terran bio army faster than 4 vikings can kill them.
On 3 base start getting storm tech and high templars, get zealot charge if you can fight against him on open areas.
Get about 9 gates on 3 bases, get 72 probes take fourth base if you start to pile up minerals, Upgrades get them and chrono boost them.
Guardian shield is good.
Also immortals just rape tanks and thors.
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Just ran into something new on ladder: 1 base hellion/marauder with a stim push. Saw what he was doing with my 3 gate pressure but lost a few stalkers. Tried getting colossi up, but it hit too early. IDK what to do vs that, maybe fast chargelot/archon? Can't even find any terran guides on this.
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On March 17 2012 07:53 Audemed wrote:
Just ran into something new on ladder: 1 base hellion/marauder with a stim push. Saw what he was doing with my 3 gate pressure but lost a few stalkers. Tried getting colossi up, but it hit too early. IDK what to do vs that, maybe fast chargelot/archon? Can't even find any terran guides on this.
Chrono out as many Immortals as you can.
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I've been watching white ra's PvZ recently and he will sometimes go gateway first expo. Similar to a FFE but with gateways and zealots instead of cannons. I used it once just guessing on the builds and such and it worked well. Does anyone know of a place where this type of build has been discussed or is it relatively undiscussed territory?
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Can someone give me the thread or BO for the 1 gate FE against terran, the one where you take the natural around 24 and use stalkers to defend early game. I can't find it and don't know what to search. thanks!
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On March 17 2012 18:24 KingLumps wrote:
Can someone give me the thread or BO for the 1 gate FE against terran, the one where you take the natural around 24 and use stalkers to defend early game. I can't find it and don't know what to search. thanks!
There are many versions, I will put mine in here as I believe it to be solid.
9 pylon
10 chrono nexus, 12 chrono nexus
13 gateway > scout
14 gas
15 chrono nexus
16 pylon, put probes on gas
18 core
19 zealot
22 stalker
chrono gateway, chrono core
23 pylon
26 stalker
chrono core
28 nexus, gateway, gateway, stalker
chrono core
31 gas
32 pylon (on high ground, nothing on low ground yet)
Poke their ramp with their zealot, its ok if it ends up dying to marauders, you need the info.
no marauders = 31 robo >observer, 3 stalker warp in
marauders = zealot/sentry warpins, 2 forges afer third round of warpins, 3rd and 4th gas after forges
Note that you do not put any pylons on the lowground until after your first warpin on the highground, and dont engage marauders until your new units have warped in (your nexus wont die).
Also note that if you scout 11/11 raxes then dont do this build as you need more units out before you expand.
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Had some questions about Robo builds in PvP, specifically the early game:
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What should I do if I open robo, and my opponent opts for 1 base Colossus?
Specifically, I need help with the two following scenarios:
1. He gets a single colossus, no range, as a forcefield smasher.
2. He waits for 2 Colossus with rangree
I'm assuming I just open robo, with no robotics bay for my own Colossus. What should I do as soon as I scout the Colossus tech started? Start my own, expand, ect?
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I.f my opponent opens Phoenixes, and I opened Robo, what should be the response? I always feel like no matter what I do, I get sorta behind, and either he gets a better economy, or he just crushes me with an allin. What exactly am I supposed to do to counter Phoenixes? I guess I'd want to know the steps I should take with a Robo build, as soon as I know its a Phoenix build, rather than anything specific giving me trouble.
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If we both opt for a robo expand, and we expand roughly at the same time, unless its an easily defended natural (think shakuras), how can I go colossus? It seems like my opponent just attacks as soon as I start investing in Colossus tech, since we have the same infrastructure (4gates and a robo), its just I have a lot of money sunk into tech that hasn't paid off. Can I just not go Colossus in this situation?
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Thanks in advance for anyone who can help me
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Hey, im a high silver player who is like 70% against Zerg and 50% against
Toss, but i have a really hard time against Terran. Can anyone run my through a build that will survive early pressure and net me an expansion? I also have a really hard time taking my third because of medivac drops. Thank for any help.
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On March 18 2012 01:37 9-BiT wrote:
Hey, im a high silver player who is like 70% against Zerg and 50% against
Toss, but i have a really hard time against Terran. Can anyone run my through a build that will survive early pressure and net me an expansion? I also have a really hard time taking my third because of medivac drops. Thank for any help.
My standard pvt opening is just two posts above. There are some links to others a few posts up also.
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what is the build order for a regular ffe? i searched it but cant find one. What i'm looking for is a general FFE, nothing specific
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On March 18 2012 04:12 xmikeyy17x wrote:
what is the build order for a regular ffe? i searched it but cant find one. What i'm looking for is a general FFE, nothing specific
Safe version:
Pylon
Forge
Cannon
Nexus
Gateway
Greedy:
Pylon
Nexus
Forge
Cannon
Gateway
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On March 16 2012 23:27 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:44 Kovaz wrote:On March 16 2012 02:29 udai wrote:On March 15 2012 14:02 Kovaz wrote:
So I was watching the Genius vs Dongraegu games from the last GSL, trying to steal genius's timings and I came across something that I'm not sure why he does. He seems to save up enough minerals to go nexus first on 17 supply, but then builds his forge first anyway. Doesn't this just make you more vulnerable to something like a 6/7/8 pool for no reason? You'd still get the nexus down at the same time if you went 14 forge 17 nexus wouldn't you? He saves his money at the possibility of getting a nexus first. when he scouts that he cant get away with it he drops the forge. if you are getting 6-7 pooled you will need to build the cannon in your main regardless and the forge will finish in time for that because he has it timed out like that. He losses nothing vs a 10-11 pool because he can still wall off in time. Yeah that makes sense. I'm curious then why the common trend is to go 14 forge when a 17 forge can still hold anything, but still leave nexus first as a possibility. Is it just for the threat of cannon rushing a hatch first? Also, if you could choose, is it better economically for toss to go nexus first against hatch first, or forge first but force pool first? Can 17 forge really hold early pools no matter what map?
No, I think the safe forge timing is 14.
On GSL though, they have foced X positions a lot, so it's easier to scout and the rush distance is longer.
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On March 16 2012 22:05 Fenneth wrote:
Does anyone have a reliable method for cannon-rushing hatch first Zergs? I'm starting to play some Koreans who hatch first with a drone and overlord patrolling for cannons, I'm not seeing the "build order win" that people claim.
anyone? 
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On March 18 2012 11:55 Fenneth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 22:05 Fenneth wrote:
Does anyone have a reliable method for cannon-rushing hatch first Zergs? I'm starting to play some Koreans who hatch first with a drone and overlord patrolling for cannons, I'm not seeing the "build order win" that people claim. anyone?
like its so map dependent its hard to say, but if you successfully get the cannons up the zerg is in so much trouble, in some maps u can place a cannon behind the mineral line and have pylons blocking the cannon in such a way that theres no way a drone can touch the cannon. If they commit trying to get the hatch up you should be able to kill a significant amount of drones/zerglings that try to kill it but if he just cancels he is either going to build roaches/spines to deal with it or made the hatch somewhere else.
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How do you deal with a zerg who takes a fast gold base as a third? I had a game today where a zerg did that to me on metalopolis, I scouted it fairly early and went for a fairly quick 4gate+stargate pressure to try to force units before he got a chance to saturate, and I eventually killed the gold base but he overwhelmed me with mass units soon after.
The main issue I had was that he could throw down 6+ spines at the gold and still be ahead. Is it better to just 1gate expand on maps with golds, or are there ways to punish it? My first thought is to do a hardcore 6gate allin, push at the gold to force a bunch of spines, but then target the main and natural, hopefully killing his natural and maybe some tech at the main if you're lucky. I'm hoping this will force him to make units early enough that the gold base doesn't really pay off, but I have no idea how well it will work.
Any thoughts?
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On March 18 2012 12:12 Kovaz wrote:
How do you deal with a zerg who takes a fast gold base as a third? I had a game today where a zerg did that to me on metalopolis, I scouted it fairly early and went for a fairly quick 4gate+stargate pressure to try to force units before he got a chance to saturate, and I eventually killed the gold base but he overwhelmed me with mass units soon after.
The main issue I had was that he could throw down 6+ spines at the gold and still be ahead. Is it better to just 1gate expand on maps with golds, or are there ways to punish it? My first thought is to do a hardcore 6gate allin, push at the gold to force a bunch of spines, but then target the main and natural, hopefully killing his natural and maybe some tech at the main if you're lucky. I'm hoping this will force him to make units early enough that the gold base doesn't really pay off, but I have no idea how well it will work.
Any thoughts?
A replay may help, but just to keep it in general:
Gold bases are almost guaranteed to be far from the natural and the main. Even a simple drop & warp-in warp prism can cause havoc on a main or natural. If you can pull his army out of his base, a 4 sentry warp prism could outright kill them on maps with ramps.
The problem with Stargate play is that it has to be used for either very early game aggression, or for map vision/control. It's very fragile in terms of what can counter it (infestors, which is a very common tech path, or hydras, another gateway unit killer) and uses up a ton of resources. Not to mention 2 spore crawlers and phoenix/void ray harass is useless.
I'm not quite sure I understand the post; did the opponent make spines? or not?
If he made spines, the primary counters that I can think of would be immortals tanking spines (early-mid game and passive counter); colossi with siege range (later game and passive counter) or DT's (reactionary counter). Sure, it doesn't take long to get detection, but with 60(or is it 45?) damage a swing (may be misquoting this damage), in the time they can bring up detection, 2 DT's can take out a spine wall and likely a good chunk of drones.
In terms of punishing it, all-in and harass would be your best bets. Or take the gold yourself with static defenses if you scout it soon enough, zerg has to be ahead on bases to outmass you.
Sorry if this doesn't help, post a replay and I, or someone else, could help more specifically.
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EPT
