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On March 12 2012 06:02 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 05:46 ichunddu9 wrote:On March 12 2012 05:22 kcdc wrote:On March 12 2012 05:14 ichunddu9 wrote:
hey guys,
i m high master eu and i ve just started to play ffe. now i don t know any transitions after i ve defended a 6 pool with a cannon in my minerals.
can anybody give me some strategies, transitions or sth like that, plz?
cheers I've been asking around about this myself. What I've been told is that you should first confirm that another all-in isn't coming (easy since 6 pool doesn't get fast gas) and 1 gate FE. Alternatively, you can proxy 2 gates and force the fight while you're ahead in workers. 1 gate fe? i m not sure whether this is possible without getting punished in maps like taldarim. what i ve heard of from a clanmate is, that i should go for a voidray expand. he said, you can do damage because the zerg is behind in tech and just has 1-2 queens. what do you think about that? The idea behind a 6 pool is that the zerg forces you to go for a 1 base opening, but sacrifices a bit of econ to do so. So think of it like it's a normal game except you're forced to open on 1 base, but your opponent starts with 5 drones instead of 6. Just like a normal game, you want to scout your opponent's gas timing with your initial scouting probe. If he takes a relatively early gas, then you have to 3/4 gate expand. If he doesn't, go for 1 gate expand. I also personally like a stargate followup, as you can sometimes deny a 3rd, stop roach/ling allins, and be setup for the common muta play. See Genius vs Nestea on Talderim from the GSL for an example.
all right, thx, i m going to practice some games against early pools
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So i just had a game vs a zerg on korhal. I open gate expand, using 3 gate expand because i scout speedling opening. This guy makes mass lings to slow down my expo and i just get a quick twilight thinking ill do some kind of chargelot timing to get myself in a good position later in the game. I hallucinate scout this guy going the fucking fastest spire, so im thinking, fuck it, im gona do a timing push. As i was gearing up i felt like i got the HT tech too fast so i canceled. Just basically i felt my push felt really weak and risky(sub 40 probes and 5 gates i think) and weird but it ended up just straight up killing him.
His super fast spire felt so fast, i just felt like i had to get my push going ASAP. I was wondering what my safer option should have been. I felt the deciding factor was when i got my nexus denied and i just get a quick twilight council. Should I have been churning out non stop probes until i got my natural up instead of teching? What should have been a safer response to mass lings and was my response a "good" response to his super fast spire.
http://drop.sc/129882, i just microed my archons stalkers sentries on his mutas and they just evaporated
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PvZ almost any map. What do you do if you fail to kill the third? This seems to be my latest issue. No matter how crisp I seem to get my timings, I don't have MC, Puzzle, Parting, Genius or any Korean level micro, so I can't always get the third. Recently I've been doin' the 4gate +1 zealots and void ray attack at like 9 minutes or sooner and it gives fairly decent results, prepared or not, but a lot of lower level zerg seem to have such an abundance of resources cause they don't macro well enough that they can make mass roaches cause they didn't spend resources on drones and hold off my push. What do I do then? My push was strong countered by inept play and now the zerg has 3 bases and if I'm lucky I have a void ray or two, maybe an immortal (because I always tech swap and head towards colossus, stalker, afchon, high templar, and mothership deathball), and warp in a round or two of stalkers and sentries, but no matter what they just seem to rally across the map the second they stop my attack and die, and even if I hold I still end up bein' crushed lategame and stuck in my base forever unable to get a third. If I stop the third I always seem to win, and if I don't get it auto loss, is the matchup really this volatile? (Always open FFE any map).
I've also messed around with a 5 gate dt warp in snipe hatch and run, and it works only if they don't blindly go spores (which more often then not they always get at least 1 spore no matter what they scout). I've tried the double immortal 6 gate heavy sentry push too, and like I said, I don't have super Korean micro skills and that build ends up backfirin' bad every time I try. I don't have access to replays right now, would have to wait til I get home then figure out how ro upload, but if anyone has suggestions would be most helpful.
Incase its important: High diamond protoss currently playin' a lot of mid masters players and takin' a beatin'.
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 12 2012 08:06 Troxle wrote:
PvZ almost any map. What do you do if you fail to kill the third? This seems to be my latest issue. No matter how crisp I seem to get my timings, I don't have MC, Puzzle, Parting, Genius or any Korean level micro, so I can't always get the third. Recently I've been doin' the 4gate +1 zealots and void ray attack at like 9 minutes or sooner and it gives fairly decent results, prepared or not, but a lot of lower level zerg seem to have such an abundance of resources cause they don't macro well enough that they can make mass roaches cause they didn't spend resources on drones and hold off my push. What do I do then? My push was strong countered by inept play and now the zerg has 3 bases and if I'm lucky I have a void ray or two, maybe an immortal (because I always tech swap and head towards colossus, stalker, afchon, high templar, and mothership deathball), and warp in a round or two of stalkers and sentries, but no matter what they just seem to rally across the map the second they stop my attack and die, and even if I hold I still end up bein' crushed lategame and stuck in my base forever unable to get a third. If I stop the third I always seem to win, and if I don't get it auto loss, is the matchup really this volatile? (Always open FFE any map).
I've also messed around with a 5 gate dt warp in snipe hatch and run, and it works only if they don't blindly go spores (which more often then not they always get at least 1 spore no matter what they scout). I've tried the double immortal 6 gate heavy sentry push too, and like I said, I don't have super Korean micro skills and that build ends up backfirin' bad every time I try. I don't have access to replays right now, would have to wait til I get home then figure out how ro upload, but if anyone has suggestions would be most helpful.
Incase its important: High diamond protoss currently playin' a lot of mid masters players and takin' a beatin'. \
Try the following Guide by Alej
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708
Its not about killing the third outright but about map control instead. While I do like the gate/void +1 pressure I've been finding Zergs better able to handle it. you could always do a 3 gate void attack which hits a little bit sooner as well if you don't like Alej's guide I posted above.
I like that its safe against a lot of things and that the third isn't necessarily something that has to die. Of course on certain maps its much easier to kill the third so if they take the far third on shak I like to do a +1 zealot timing with void ray or on korhal compound since the third wont be creep connected and these maps have some very nice proxy pylon positions.
Be careful to only make one proxy in a good spot I find if I make 2 and don't kill the third I am much further behind than if I make one and don't kill the third.
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Hi chaps, any tips on how to handle a 4 rax push (that does not seem to be an all-in)?
Terran hit hard with 2 tech/2 reactor push around the ~8.00 mark with stim while taking an expo behind it and then repeatedly attacked. I managed to hold off all the attacks although I had to pull (and lose) probes a couple of times and allow my Nexus to take a few hits. Even so, or perhaps because of it, I was either even or behind for good parts of the game. He switched to dual tech lab Factory + MMM (with dual ebay for fast upgrades) for a push at my 3rd. I held the attack and destroyed his army but lost the 3rd and then foolishly counter-attacked with not much of an army to die to sieged tanks + mmm + viking.
I think I'm clear on why I lost the game. I needed 1) a Faster Robo (I delayed this in favour of a 3 gate expand because I thought a 3 rax was coming). 2) Faster third (I should have probably gotten this after I held his 3rd attack, I think). 3) Too many probes. I made 107 probes, and even with the probe losses probably had too many probes (but not missing probes is something I have been wanting to work on). 4) Teched faster and not delayed taking at least one gas earlier at my natural. 5) Microed better as this was plain awful. Although, in my defense, it was my first game of the day and I was a little all over the show. 6) More attention to the mini-map as the first 2 engagements could have gone better if I was paying more attention. 7) After killing his army I should have retaken my 3rd and then (probably) taken a 4th as tanks are not all that mobile and not counter-attacked.
However, any other tips/points would be appreciated. Thanks.
Replay is here: http://drop.sc/129936
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when going for a FFE, where should i be placing the cannon?
the obvious thing is so that it covers the front of every building so lings cant attack
But then some people say place it back so roaches cant hit it if they just run upto your buildings and other people (me included) put the cannon as far forwards as i can, otherwise i feel like the roaches can just stand back and pick off the buildings in the wall and just kill them
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On March 12 2012 21:52 ThatGuy89 wrote:
when going for a FFE, where should i be placing the cannon?
the obvious thing is so that it covers the front of every building so lings cant attack
But then some people say place it back so roaches cant hit it if they just run upto your buildings and other people (me included) put the cannon as far forwards as i can, otherwise i feel like the roaches can just stand back and pick off the buildings in the wall and just kill them
Yes, place it as far forward as possible.
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Gold level toss here. I keep trying to win with macro, but usually i it's actually my micro that looses me the game. Let's just say A-move stalkers to diamond won't work.
My problem is:
PvT: I 1G expand at somewhere between 21-27 supply (depending on what i scout), almost exclusively fend off the Terran's first attack with ease. Then i place stalkers at the back of my base to watch out for drops; and this works most of the time. I either kill the medivac(s) or he backs them off.
The problem usually arise when i hit 3 bases, and get dropped more then one place at the time. I simply suck so hard at multitasking and splitting off army, that i tend to counter attack in a horrible position and loose my entire army. GG form there, even though i have 75 probes vs 50 SCVs on Terrans 2 bases.
What really suck is I know what I'm doing wrong, i just can't seem to fix it. When he drops with 2 medivacs of stimmed MMM at two locations, i never seem to have enough. It just WONT die, ever. I've tried a lot of cannons, not working at all - and stalkers are pure shit. I guess I'll hear the "Scoute more, macro better" comment, but if i do that, and keep defending all my bases with my entire army, i won't be able to stop his expansions and live on my superior economy for long.
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On March 12 2012 22:29 Restyle1337 wrote:
Gold level toss here. I keep trying to win with macro, but usually i it's actually my micro that looses me the game. Let's just say A-move stalkers to diamond won't work.
My problem is:
PvT: I 1G expand at somewhere between 21-27 supply (depending on what i scout), almost exclusively fend off the Terran's first attack with ease. Then i place stalkers at the back of my base to watch out for drops; and this works most of the time. I either kill the medivac(s) or he backs them off.
The problem usually arise when i hit 3 bases, and get dropped more then one place at the time. I simply suck so hard at multitasking and splitting off army, that i tend to counter attack in a horrible position and loose my entire army. GG form there, even though i have 75 probes vs 50 SCVs on Terrans 2 bases.
What really suck is I know what I'm doing wrong, i just can't seem to fix it. When he drops with 2 medivacs of stimmed MMM at two locations, i never seem to have enough. It just WONT die, ever. I've tried a lot of cannons, not working at all - and stalkers are pure shit. I guess I'll hear the "Scoute more, macro better" comment, but if i do that, and keep defending all my bases with my entire army, i won't be able to stop his expansions and live on my superior economy for long.
Yeah  I have the same problem in silver. Needless to say I suck at macro and I'm afraid to push out without mothership... Most of the time, I turtle on 3 bases and get deathball while my opponent gets 5 or 6 bases. With good observers, I try to pick off his bases with some zealots. So far, my only way to stopping drops is preventing it from reaching my base. I would make about 4 pheonixs and put them in patrol on dead spots. It works on maps with long drop routes and makes the terran unable to appraoch my base. I think this only works on low levels because I havn't seen one pro use it. Is there another solution that does not require as much attention from my part?
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Italy12246 Posts
The simple way to put it is, look at the minimap and use pylons and observers to spot.
It's helpful in lategame to leave 1 templar per base, have a lot of cannons and/or not max out but have 8ish free supply in case of a drop.
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On March 12 2012 22:29 Restyle1337 wrote:
Gold level toss here. I keep trying to win with macro, but usually i it's actually my micro that looses me the game. Let's just say A-move stalkers to diamond won't work.
My problem is:
PvT: I 1G expand at somewhere between 21-27 supply (depending on what i scout), almost exclusively fend off the Terran's first attack with ease. Then i place stalkers at the back of my base to watch out for drops; and this works most of the time. I either kill the medivac(s) or he backs them off.
The problem usually arise when i hit 3 bases, and get dropped more then one place at the time. I simply suck so hard at multitasking and splitting off army, that i tend to counter attack in a horrible position and loose my entire army. GG form there, even though i have 75 probes vs 50 SCVs on Terrans 2 bases.
What really suck is I know what I'm doing wrong, i just can't seem to fix it. When he drops with 2 medivacs of stimmed MMM at two locations, i never seem to have enough. It just WONT die, ever. I've tried a lot of cannons, not working at all - and stalkers are pure shit. I guess I'll hear the "Scoute more, macro better" comment, but if i do that, and keep defending all my bases with my entire army, i won't be able to stop his expansions and live on my superior economy for long.
Also make sure to have a good amount of observers (I like 3) by time drops are to come out. Leave observers in good drop-paths and keep your eyes glued to the minimap. If you have good map control (ie: towers), you don't need your army at the front of the base. Split it up at your expansions until you see that his army is coming. If you have towers, you know when they are or are not.
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A full energy HT + chargelot warp in is an amazing way to kill a drop. You can feedback a medivac and storm twice which, if it hits properly, can kill a MMM drop straight off, or weaken them so much (if they stimmed) that chargelots will clean up easily.
2 MM drops at different places is a huge committment for the Terran. If you clean it up you'll be able to roll over him.
Alternatively, try to take the initiative in the game rather than sitting back and allowing him to attack you. Terran are even worse at handling multi-pronged aggression than Protoss due to wall offs/bunkers etc. A sentry/zealot drop in the main with a blink stalker harass at the expo can cripple their economy, forcing them into drops - you deal with them, and they're dead.
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I've got a question regarding cannon rushing on metalopolis, or rather defending a cannon rush.
My problem on this map is that his first cannon is in range of my mineral line, so when i scout on 12, and scout him second, its too late to react. And even if i catch him building a pylon on the lowground, my forge (and thus my first cannon) will finish later than his, so he gets his cannon up and can kill half my mineral line. How can I deal with this without losing my mineral line?
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On March 13 2012 03:42 vision810 wrote:
I've got a question regarding cannon rushing on metalopolis, or rather defending a cannon rush.
My problem on this map is that his first cannon is in range of my mineral line, so when i scout on 12, and scout him second, its too late to react. And even if i catch him building a pylon on the lowground, my forge (and thus my first cannon) will finish later than his, so he gets his cannon up and can kill half my mineral line. How can I deal with this without losing my mineral line?
Use your probes to delay his cannons, also have a probe chase his to see what it's up to. Don't forget to check the back of your base for pylons as well.
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Aren't you supposed to check there (in that spot on the low ground) if you 12 scout as well? Alternatively put your first pylon close by so that it gives you vision of the low ground? I think I heard Artosis saying that on one of his Artosis Hour casts.
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On March 13 2012 03:58 aZealot wrote:
Aren't you supposed to check there (in that spot on the low ground) if you 12 scout as well? Alternatively put your first pylon close by so that it gives you vision of the low ground? I think I heard Artosis saying that on one of his Artosis Hour casts.
Yeah I check there at 12, he starts building the pylon a while after that. My problem is that when I do scout the cannon rush (scouting probe or I see a pylon on the lowground) its usually too late, even if I put the forge down immediately.
Thanks for pointing out that Artosis covered this, going to watch the vods.
Btw when should I check my base, after first gas or after ccore?
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Hey guys,
can anyone say or send me the build order of HuK´s FFE into 9 Gate against zerg?
That would be great
greetz xLeaR
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EPT
