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On December 18 2011 08:21 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 23:20 Latedi wrote:On December 17 2011 13:36 Latchy wrote:On December 17 2011 12:11 Selendis wrote:
I recently adopted the 1 gate FE in my PvT (MC's version). So far things have gone pretty well. I've been able to deal damage with my first zealot and two stalkers, I always have my economy up and running and an obs up in time for banshees and 1-1-1. I haven't encountered anything I haven't been able to deal with...yet.
My question is: What is the scariest thing I need to watch out for while using this build? And how do I deal with it? Liquipedia doesn't seem to say and the 1gate expand thread only vaguely references1 rax fe as a BO counter... It can be done, but the scariest build to face is the 2 rax one reactor/tech lab with conc shells. This requires intensive micro and sometimes even probe usage, but it can be fought off. Another scary build is Geiko's 3rax marine/scv all-in. This again requires extremely precise micro and the delaying of your expo, but it can be done. This is the build im talking of http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517 Yeah wtf. Geiko is a fellow brotoss. I have played some practice games with him. And then he makes THAT? Way to help the protoss race :p I have to agree the 2rax is scariest though. But only if you mistake it for the 1-1-1. life time brotoss banishment
Yeah that sounds appropriate... I also believe this fits very well under the topic "discussion of the protoss race".
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 18 2011 08:21 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 23:20 Latedi wrote:On December 17 2011 13:36 Latchy wrote:On December 17 2011 12:11 Selendis wrote:
I recently adopted the 1 gate FE in my PvT (MC's version). So far things have gone pretty well. I've been able to deal damage with my first zealot and two stalkers, I always have my economy up and running and an obs up in time for banshees and 1-1-1. I haven't encountered anything I haven't been able to deal with...yet.
My question is: What is the scariest thing I need to watch out for while using this build? And how do I deal with it? Liquipedia doesn't seem to say and the 1gate expand thread only vaguely references1 rax fe as a BO counter... It can be done, but the scariest build to face is the 2 rax one reactor/tech lab with conc shells. This requires intensive micro and sometimes even probe usage, but it can be fought off. Another scary build is Geiko's 3rax marine/scv all-in. This again requires extremely precise micro and the delaying of your expo, but it can be done. This is the build im talking of http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517 Yeah wtf. Geiko is a fellow brotoss. I have played some practice games with him. And then he makes THAT? Way to help the protoss race :p I have to agree the 2rax is scariest though. But only if you mistake it for the 1-1-1. life time brotoss banishment
Eh ill play devil's advocate here...he was trolling while at the same time demonstrating how hard it can be to get to gm level as terran (/sarcasm off), and he did post that amazing defensive 3gate...i say give him one more chance ^^
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On December 18 2011 08:59 Alejandrisha wrote:
i'll allow it
Yeah okay. Gotta listen to the blue posters  I say he has to pay by writing a nice new guide though... I think he has been working on phoenixes, at least last time I played him (when not kicking my ass with off-race terran LOL). He's at 999 posts at the moment so I'm pretty sure he's reading about our judgements and crying out of sadness/joy without being able to do anything about it.
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Herm. So I've actually browsed a lot of protoss how to.
I'm currently playing terran. I just want to get masters, no matter what race. I'm just having problems with being able to micro late game even when mechanically pwning players, in terms of macro. So yeah, protoss XD
I played toss a long time ago, but that was right around the advent of the 1 gate fe pvt, 3 gate expo vs zerg, and all four gate all the time pvp.
What is one good safe build per matchup at this time?
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PVt Forcefield Dilemma - help!
Ok-- so Zerg, I have very few zealots.. a few to meat fuck the zerglings maybe, but hydra/roach makes me go primarily stalker. That being said, sentries work AMAZING vs Zerg because you can take advantage of your range/mobility by carving the map in half.
TERRAN --- you NEED zealots (I think) to tank these fucks. However, this doesn't help you for sentries because all u can do is prevent their escape, but if u cut them in half ur zealots kill the front while getting pwns from behind, and they can't get the guys in back.
SO--- my question. With PvT, do u truly just use less sentries since u only really want to prevent escape and don't really want to cut army in half? OR---- will stalkers suck a lot less if u have a lot of sentries? Say, what if i play T like I play Z--- blink stalkers and sentries and skip zealots. Will I succeed if I cut them in half, and splice and dice the bastards? They will all stim and get injured--- and when I go to collosi stalkers whoop viking arse. Also, stalkers can stop drop ships and be highly mobile for harassment.
What say ye? Does pure stalker sentry into collosi work? If u slice and dice & blink micro, can stalkers be good?
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On December 18 2011 10:31 Froadac wrote:
Herm. So I've actually browsed a lot of protoss how to.
I'm currently playing terran. I just want to get masters, no matter what race. I'm just having problems with being able to micro late game even when mechanically pwning players, in terms of macro. So yeah, protoss XD
I played toss a long time ago, but that was right around the advent of the 1 gate fe pvt, 3 gate expo vs zerg, and all four gate all the time pvp.
What is one good safe build per matchup at this time?
Bad macro is ganna kill you with any race, sorry 
You should be able to get to masters with FFE PvZ, 1 Gate FE PvT/PvZ, and anything I, Monk or Alej have written on PvP.
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Err, that came across wrong. I'll max out way ahead of toss/zerg, then just can't kill the damn guy.
And thanks.
My macro is by no means perfect, but I lose a lot of games with 1.5/2x resources score tt
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On December 18 2011 14:56 Froadac wrote:
Err, that came across wrong. I'll max out way ahead of toss/zerg, then just can't kill the damn guy.
And thanks.
My macro is by no means perfect, but I lose a lot of games with 1.5/2x resources score tt
Oh I see I got it backwards 
Well then you should be able to improve micro a lot if you use sentry in the early/mid-game and try to stay away from using Colossus in any matchup.
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Haha.
Yeah, my macro isn't pristine, but generally each matchup goes like this
TVT: make too many scvs, lose
TVP: Die to deathball, after killing all his bases
TvZ: Kill bases, my split sucks I lose
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Guys
I've been doing the new 1 Gate FE that kcdc posted. One issue that I have is that I can't respond efficiently to all the early 1 base pressure.
With the few early units, I can't decide whether to spread to defend against hellion drop/banshee or keep in the front to defend 2/3 rax. Plus, cloaked banshees (2-3) are really damaging, since I'm too afraid of rax aggression to add robo early enough.
Would you please give me any tips regarding what to do when I scout no expo from T when mine is done? How many production facilities/where to position my units/how to defend against cloaked banshees?
Many, many thanks!
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Thanks a lot. I'm like doing as well with toss as with terran.
Except for last few games. Got pwnt because i was being silly >.>
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On December 18 2011 14:42 MooSlapper wrote:
PVt Forcefield Dilemma - help!
Ok-- so Zerg, I have very few zealots.. a few to meat fuck the zerglings maybe, but hydra/roach makes me go primarily stalker. That being said, sentries work AMAZING vs Zerg because you can take advantage of your range/mobility by carving the map in half.
TERRAN --- you NEED zealots (I think) to tank these fucks. However, this doesn't help you for sentries because all u can do is prevent their escape, but if u cut them in half ur zealots kill the front while getting pwns from behind, and they can't get the guys in back.
SO--- my question. With PvT, do u truly just use less sentries since u only really want to prevent escape and don't really want to cut army in half? OR---- will stalkers suck a lot less if u have a lot of sentries? Say, what if i play T like I play Z--- blink stalkers and sentries and skip zealots. Will I succeed if I cut them in half, and splice and dice the bastards? They will all stim and get injured--- and when I go to collosi stalkers whoop viking arse. Also, stalkers can stop drop ships and be highly mobile for harassment.
What say ye? Does pure stalker sentry into collosi work? If u slice and dice & blink micro, can stalkers be good?
PvT sentries are needed to prevent kiting.
Kiting is what makes the bio army so efficient.
Mass blink stalker works. Up to a certain point. Once they get critical mass, your stalker will insta melt. If you're going blink stalker heavy, you should invest the gas into templar and upgrades instead of sentries. Blink stalker works as early harass, but once they get on solid 2 base, you better have storm.
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On December 18 2011 16:28 Quochobao wrote:Guys I've been doing the new 1 Gate FE that kcdc posted. One issue that I have is that I can't respond efficiently to all the early 1 base pressure. With the few early units, I can't decide whether to spread to defend against hellion drop/banshee or keep in the front to defend 2/3 rax. Plus, cloaked banshees (2-3) are really damaging, since I'm too afraid of rax aggression to add robo early enough. Would you please give me any tips regarding what to do when I scout no expo from T when mine is done? How many production facilities/where to position my units/how to defend against cloaked banshees? Many, many thanks!
ALWAYS poke with your probe. Then with your stalker after your core finishes. Get marine counts. It takes practice and losing a lot, but eventually you'll be able to tell whether he's going for 2rax, 1-1-1, or something else weird.
Off on a fast expand, in the early stage, you'll want 3 gates then robo, then add 2 more gates once you get minimal saturation.
Cloaked banshees = obs + 3 stalkes at each min line
Zealots/sentries/immos at your front.
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On December 18 2011 14:42 MooSlapper wrote:
PVt Forcefield Dilemma - help!
Ok-- so Zerg, I have very few zealots.. a few to meat fuck the zerglings maybe, but hydra/roach makes me go primarily stalker. That being said, sentries work AMAZING vs Zerg because you can take advantage of your range/mobility by carving the map in half.
TERRAN --- you NEED zealots (I think) to tank these fucks. However, this doesn't help you for sentries because all u can do is prevent their escape, but if u cut them in half ur zealots kill the front while getting pwns from behind, and they can't get the guys in back.
SO--- my question. With PvT, do u truly just use less sentries since u only really want to prevent escape and don't really want to cut army in half? OR---- will stalkers suck a lot less if u have a lot of sentries? Say, what if i play T like I play Z--- blink stalkers and sentries and skip zealots. Will I succeed if I cut them in half, and splice and dice the bastards? They will all stim and get injured--- and when I go to collosi stalkers whoop viking arse. Also, stalkers can stop drop ships and be highly mobile for harassment.
What say ye? Does pure stalker sentry into collosi work? If u slice and dice & blink micro, can stalkers be good?
I saw MC play a style with stalkers, sentries and colossus, no zealots a few months ago. So it should work with good forcefields.
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On December 16 2011 22:14 MooSlapper wrote:
Ok.... PvT & Immortals. Are they really worth it? Maybe ONE before the collosi, but is even THAT worth it or should I just tech to collosi and/or get more units.
Ok... so they are ok against mauraders (for the cost/value), but only if they are not focus fired. I can handle microing them manualy (kind of...) and targets, but since they are slow they are often stuck behind other units and out of range of the maurader (which, iff the player is smart, is located BEHIND the marines... marines in range of immortal = bad). I can see the value if things go the way you want them too, but if enemy is not siege tanking or mecching, what do u think about them PvT?
It depends really, if he's going to push you I feel a immortal can be needed. Also they are extremly good versus marauders, I think if you have one in your army and it doesn't get killed it can get a shit ton of kills. I would get it if you are unsure if pressure is coming or not, but if you can get away with it or want to tech more greedy maybe you should skip it.
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Yo---
SO, PvT. I want ALL tech, and I want it fast! I want collosi, I want charge, I want blink, I want more and more gateways & units, I want dual forges kicking monkey ass. I want thermal lance--- I want it all! THe problem? I can't get it all at once. But I try!! I know I need to pace myself and decide what is most important. I dont understand just how much I Can tech at once--- I need to know what is safe to do, and what should be prioritized. So, what are some good orders to arrange ur tech? HOw much do u tech at one time? Would this sound feasible, for instance?
I 1 gate FE, he 2 rax into CC. I defend his push, so we begin our descent into the mid game. I have 3 gateways, a robo at this point.
First I drop another gateway or 2 for 4-5 gates and pump out units. I get 2 gas, and grab the robo bay. I make units & then a collosi. Then I dual forge and start both upgrades & build twilight when upgrades are near completion. I get charge and the two upgrades when they come, while maintaining collosi production and units as I can afford them.
Would this be overdoing it? Should I start with twilight/upgrades instead of robo bay? Should I push the upgrades until later, or do them earlier and push something else out teh way?
It's so confusing I Never know how much is too much off of 2 bases. HAELP!
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 18 2011 09:06 Latedi wrote:Yeah okay. Gotta listen to the blue posters I say he has to pay by writing a nice new guide though... I think he has been working on phoenixes, at least last time I played him (when not kicking my ass with off-race terran LOL). He's at 999 posts at the moment so I'm pretty sure he's reading about our judgements and crying out of sadness/joy without being able to do anything about it.
It would be hilarious if his nice guide for 1k posts was "hey, i got back to gm as terran. This time it's a 1-1-1 allin for each matchup!"
Anyway, my questions since i dont want to spam the thread:
Regarding the decision to go colossus vs chargelot/archon, i would do this off the top of my head (assuming 2base vs 2base):
1) If we go mirror builds (robo blink), depends on the map. Easy third ----> colossus, harder third ----> chargelot/archon.
2) If he opens colossus expand, go chargelot/archon since i wont catch up to his colossus count.
3) If he opens immortal expand, depends on the map.
4) If he opens stargate, go chargelot/archon.
Does this make any sense?
Also, if you open robo blink, what is the best reaction to someone going phoenix into immortal? Do i want to expand (ill take my nat since he has phoenixes)? Tech to charge? Get fast archons? I guess i cant allin him if he expands himself, since he should have a lot of immortals and i am heavy on blink stalkers; base trading also doesn't sound too good because he could easily scout hidden bases with phoenixes.
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On December 18 2011 23:41 MooSlapper wrote:Yo--- SO, PvT. I want ALL tech, and I want it fast! I want collosi, I want charge, I want blink, I want more and more gateways & units, I want dual forges kicking monkey ass. I want thermal lance--- I want it all! THe problem? I can't get it all at once. But I try!! I know I need to pace myself and decide what is most important. I dont understand just how much I Can tech at once--- I need to know what is safe to do, and what should be prioritized. So, what are some good orders to arrange ur tech? HOw much do u tech at one time? Would this sound feasible, for instance? I 1 gate FE, he 2 rax into CC. I defend his push, so we begin our descent into the mid game. I have 3 gateways, a robo at this point. First I drop another gateway or 2 for 4-5 gates and pump out units. I get 2 gas, and grab the robo bay. I make units & then a collosi. Then I dual forge and start both upgrades & build twilight when upgrades are near completion. I get charge and the two upgrades when they come, while maintaining collosi production and units as I can afford them. Would this be overdoing it? Should I start with twilight/upgrades instead of robo bay? Should I push the upgrades until later, or do them earlier and push something else out teh way? It's so confusing I Never know how much is too much off of 2 bases. HAELP!
You shouldn't go blind colossi. If he's at 4-5 rax, and his factory is delayed, go for it.
But if he goes 2 rax into fast starport, you'll probably just die. I like getting 1 forge for +1 armor first if I'm getting colossi.
If you delay colossi, go ahead and get double forge when upgrades are at 60%.
You have to delay colossi for double forge, second forge if going colossi.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 19 2011 00:15 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 23:41 MooSlapper wrote:Yo--- SO, PvT. I want ALL tech, and I want it fast! I want collosi, I want charge, I want blink, I want more and more gateways & units, I want dual forges kicking monkey ass. I want thermal lance--- I want it all! THe problem? I can't get it all at once. But I try!! I know I need to pace myself and decide what is most important. I dont understand just how much I Can tech at once--- I need to know what is safe to do, and what should be prioritized. So, what are some good orders to arrange ur tech? HOw much do u tech at one time? Would this sound feasible, for instance? I 1 gate FE, he 2 rax into CC. I defend his push, so we begin our descent into the mid game. I have 3 gateways, a robo at this point. First I drop another gateway or 2 for 4-5 gates and pump out units. I get 2 gas, and grab the robo bay. I make units & then a collosi. Then I dual forge and start both upgrades & build twilight when upgrades are near completion. I get charge and the two upgrades when they come, while maintaining collosi production and units as I can afford them. Would this be overdoing it? Should I start with twilight/upgrades instead of robo bay? Should I push the upgrades until later, or do them earlier and push something else out teh way? It's so confusing I Never know how much is too much off of 2 bases. HAELP! You shouldn't go blind colossi. If he's at 4-5 rax, and his factory is delayed, go for it. But if he goes 2 rax into fast starport, you'll probably just die. I like getting 1 forge for +1 armor first if I'm getting colossi. If you delay colossi, go ahead and get double forge when upgrades are at 60%. You have to delay colossi for double forge, second forge if going colossi.
I'm not sure if this is right, but can't he punish you heavily for cutting units and teching with 4-5rax vs 3gates worth of units? How do you hold a heavy bio, no medivac stim timing by going fast colossus (and cutting units to do so)?
Anyway, regarding Moo's question, this guide is pretty amazing to have a solid midgame pvt build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549
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