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SGilna
Singapore27 Posts
i seem to have a problem with PvT when the T goes for mechanic built..i tried early pressure on him but it doesnt seem to work..i went immo collo and stalkers against hellions tanks and vikings...hmmm i shall post a replay here so please take a look at it when u guys have the time. http://drop.sc/76219 mid plat(NA) | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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coriamon
244 Posts
On December 19 2011 13:35 SGilna wrote: hi teamliquiders i seem to have a problem with PvT when the T goes for mechanic built..i tried early pressure on him but it doesnt seem to work..i went immo collo and stalkers against hellions tanks and vikings...hmmm i shall post a replay here so please take a look at it when u guys have the time. http://drop.sc/76219 mid plat(NA) Your first engage was terribad. Never walk with ONLY STALKERS into a tankline, no matter how small the tankline may be. You are not consistantly building out of your robos. In fact, I believe that you could have pushed back his push with ease if you had the extra 3 immortals. IMMORTALS>COLOSSUS vs MECH Engaged into a choked tankline. That's okay, you still beat the push. 2 expos not mining, you have probes at your base not going to them for a while DON'T ENGAGE INTO CHOKES. YOU LOSE BATTLES THAT WAY. 2 misrallied immortals+ 2 misrallied colosus is bad. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On December 19 2011 13:40 Froadac wrote: How early do you get twilight double forge? I feel like even though my stuff is efficient marines eat me alive. Masters toss here, for PvT, i have been going 1 forge early, and then getting +1 +1 out of the one forge, then adding a twilight and a second forge for 2-2 and 3-3, i have experimented with double forge a lot, but i die quite often to very early pushes, say if a terran does a FE into a 3rax stim timing with +1 before adding medivacs, i really struggle against that when getting 2 forges, but can deal with it fine with just getting +1. ( a second +1 is the same as the cost of an immortal, or 2 stalkers, or 2 zealots and 1 sentry, which is really a lot) for PvZ i dont think double forge is really viable or needed, attack upgrades are much more important, get a fast +2 +3 and armour later, or if you arent getting a twilight for awhile, get +1 +1 then +2 +3 attack and then +2 armour. PvP is a tough one, if you get into a macro game, you need upgrades. PvP macro games are so unfigoured out that its too hard to say for certain whats viable or whats not. if you feel you are slightly ahead, go for double forge, if you feel its even or you are slightly behind, i would say play it safe with 1 forge. | ||
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SGilna
Singapore27 Posts
but immortals are slow..by the time the get to the siege tanks prolly half of the shields gone down.. | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
On December 19 2011 14:09 SGilna wrote: lol...so my army compositions should include only immo and stalkers and probably zealots? should zealots be in? but immortals are slow..by the time the get to the siege tanks prolly half of the shields gone down.. If you chose zealots and you're worried about immortals; make sure the zealots are in front and charge in first. They may not get to do damage, but at least they can soak up your damage. The direct correlation is that two stalkers equal 1 immortal, both in cost, supply and almost same build time. The two largest advantages about the immortals vs stalkers are: 1) the shields take 10 hits to go down, and then another 4 hits on their health bar. Stalkers can take 4 hits total. 2) Against armoured units, an immortal will do 65 damage (no upgrades), whereas two stalkers will do 28 damage (no upgrades). With the range increase from the previous patch, you could choose to send the immortals first to tank splash, or keep them at the back lines behind the stalkers, and do their incredibly high (vs armor) dps. If you face a mech terran, immortals will do amazing things. | ||
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SGilna
Singapore27 Posts
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
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Tekakan
Sweden78 Posts
On December 19 2011 16:14 Froadac wrote: What do you do vs ling muta? How fast templar, how many gates on 2 base? The biggest mistake people do is that they make too many Gateways and warp in too many Stalkers early on. That works pretty good if you just wanna go and kill him straight up before he gets to that magic number of about 15 or so but if you lose your army it's over. The way you want to do it is to be teching up with most of your gas since he's devoting all his to mutas. Therefor you will have a stronger army composition later on and you can in many circumstances just crush him in a straight up fight. So what you do is to not make any more Gateways once you've scouted he's going mutas. Add on Twilight Council and start getting +1 Armor. In the mean time you only warp in Stalkers. At the same time you should have excessive minerals. With them you start cannoning up your two bases. You should be making like 2-3 per mineral line and keep the Stalkers in between the two mineral lines when you don't know where his mutas are. After TC is done you get Blink and Templars Archives. Once TA is done warp in some Templars and upgrade Storm. Whilst doing this second part (getting Blink+Storm) you add on additional Gateways so that you have about 6-8 in total depending on if you want to do a big gaming ending push (8 Gateways) or just try to move out and take a third (6). Once you're about to move out you warp in one Templar per mineralline and leave them behind to storm any backstabing Zerg units. It's always good as well to have some Immortals if you've scouted Roaches. Spend all the CB on your Armor, Blink and Storm upgrades. | ||
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ahuang
United States13 Posts
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mTwRINE
Germany318 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:57 ahuang wrote: Ive been having an argument with a friend about 2 rax against a 1 gate expo. He says that toss can't hold 2 rax just pulling probes and having good micro. To all you masters Protoss, that's not the case correct? (2 rax as in reactor first) There are like 10 viable 1 Gate Nexus Openings. Depending on how many Probes you cut, you can hold it very easy or you can die straight. f.e.: 22 Stalker Probecut 24 Sentry Gate Gate 3rd Pylon And you should be fine vs most 2 Rax. OR 20 Probecut 1 Stalker Nexus into 4 Gate, Probes again afterwards. You hardcounter 2 Rax/can punish 1 rax CC if you decide to commit. But you obviously skip many probes. | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:57 ahuang wrote: Ive been having an argument with a friend about 2 rax against a 1 gate expo. He says that toss can't hold 2 rax just pulling probes and having good micro. To all you masters Protoss, that's not the case correct? (2 rax as in reactor first) Depends on the map an spawning position. You can hold 2 rax with 16 nexus on longest rush distances but on maps like xel'naga you will have to sacrfice you'r nexus. So you can defend it, but it all depens on the rush distance and the variation of your build. | ||
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ahuang
United States13 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 19 2011 09:48 Rasera wrote: Quick Questions for PvX (mostly PvT) while expanding to your natural: 1) When do I want to build my additional production structures; non-forced openings include 3 gate FE for zerg; 1 gate robo for protoss and 1 gate FE for terran? (Many times I will default to 3 gate for PvX) Every one leads into a 6 gate, robo and double forge build. (Forgive the macro, I'm pretty sure this shouldn't be supportable by 2 base with optimal macro) The majority of the time I get my additional gateways when I have everything warped or building and I have the minerals for it. I'm told this is way too late. Should I be building my additional structures while the 2nd nexus is still building? as soon as it finishes? or was I initially given wrong advice? The extra gateways and/or robo usually go down about 2 mins after the 2nd nexus finishes, as that's roughly the point where I can 'feel' the 2nd base's effect. 2) Do I still want to be warping units in while establishing the next base? I find a lot of times I don't build any units, or 1 unit per round of warp-ins, as I'm constantly chrono-boosting probes out of both nexus (I transfer probes evenly); the chrono-boost as well as keeping up with supply keeps minerals low for a substantial period of time (about 2 - 3 minute of game time). Should I stop chrono-boosting and/or cut probe production slightly to get rounds of warp-ins completed? What would be the safe decision if scouting is 'denied' (detectors at bases, army blocking probe scouts, my inability to scout well)? Does the zerg style of 'droning hard, units when needed' apply well for protoss? 3) Is teching a viable option while expanding? When should I claim my next assimilators? When I expand, I tend to claim the assimilators as soon as I take my 2nd, regardless of if I need the gas or not. This usually results in banking gas while I'm chronoing probes, which does get spent once I progress back into unit production. Should I be claiming these gases and banking, or should I leave the probes on minerals for that much faster mineral growth? Every build order that I use eventually requires at least 1 forge, a twilight council, and a robotics bay. Should I be building / teching from these structures to keep gas low while expanding? If no, when is it considered a good time to research? I know it takes 9 minutes, 30 seconds total (before chronoing) to get to +3 consecutively; do I want this to finish as I max? before? after? Sorry, loaded post. If a replay could help make this more specific, I've posted most of my replays on here: Game Replays. If this link doesn't work, alternatively search 'Rasera' on www.gamereplays.org/ ; The higher numbered replays tend to be my better games, and one called "Helping a Friend learn SC2" is a decent example of my macro play. Thanks for the help in advance, Rasera P.S. Happy Birthday CecilSunkure (since I can see it above  )1) Seems about right. After you got maybe ~10 probes at your new expansion you can cut unit production for a little while in favor of getting more infrastructure up. 2) Cutting units is a must if you want to play protoss at a high level. Cutting a few units early will allow you to have more later on, just be careful so you don't skip too many and chrono probes against an aggressive strategy :p 3) You generally want to take the new gases a while later to line up your build perfectly for a timing, some upgrades etc. Depending on what your goal is. Banking gas by taking the gases fast is a possibility but you have to be almost sure no attack is coming. For example I do that sometimes if I'm about to go zealot archon. What tech you get will depend a lot on both your and your opponent's strategy. For example you may be up against a lot of roaches. Your opponent will most likely attack soon as they become worse the longer the game goes on so starting +3 may be a bad idea if you can't hold it and would be better spent on warping in another HT and a stalker. It's always about how safe you are and what you can get away with. If you can cut units for a minute and tech +3, blink and colossi at the same time, do it. If you will die while doing that you need to get units instead. I did not watch any of the replays, but feel free to ask for specific advice for one or a few of them here. A large collection of replays is a bit over the edge :p On December 19 2011 14:05 L3g3nd_ wrote: Masters toss here, for PvT, i have been going 1 forge early, and then getting +1 +1 out of the one forge, then adding a twilight and a second forge for 2-2 and 3-3, i have experimented with double forge a lot, but i die quite often to very early pushes, say if a terran does a FE into a 3rax stim timing with +1 before adding medivacs, i really struggle against that when getting 2 forges, but can deal with it fine with just getting +1. ( a second +1 is the same as the cost of an immortal, or 2 stalkers, or 2 zealots and 1 sentry, which is really a lot) for PvZ i dont think double forge is really viable or needed, attack upgrades are much more important, get a fast +2 +3 and armour later, or if you arent getting a twilight for awhile, get +1 +1 then +2 +3 attack and then +2 armour. PvP is a tough one, if you get into a macro game, you need upgrades. PvP macro games are so unfigoured out that its too hard to say for certain whats viable or whats not. if you feel you are slightly ahead, go for double forge, if you feel its even or you are slightly behind, i would say play it safe with 1 forge. If you can/want, you should have a look at Creator's double forge PvT from the GSL. Basically he gets 3gate robo on 2 bases. Then follow up with double forge and a fast twilight council (before it's needed for 2/2) to get blink. He uses 4 sentries, zealots and a couple of immortals to hold the ramp on shakuras or whatever choke he has and then uses blink stalkers to deny drops. After 2/2 is started he gets colossus, charge and 2-3 more gates. This sets up for a crazy timing attack behind which you can take a third and start teching for HT/archon or decide to go all-in. Personally I use observers to help scout drops as well. I don't think double forge is good for PvZ or PvP though. It's all about the attack upgrades unless you are HongUn. | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
On December 19 2011 13:35 SGilna wrote: hi teamliquiders i seem to have a problem with PvT when the T goes for mechanic built..i tried early pressure on him but it doesnt seem to work..i went immo collo and stalkers against hellions tanks and vikings...hmmm i shall post a replay here so please take a look at it when u guys have the time. http://drop.sc/76219 mid plat(NA) Once you see second factory added by terran or very early armory you should build a stargate. VoidRay counters every single unit that comes out of factory. Immortals, Voidrays and blink stalkers (mostly for harass) are great vs mech. Zealots melt instantly to blue flame helions. Ah, and never attack him early. Just take more bases and harass. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
On August 05 2011 15:41 AustinCM wrote: what is the standard PvT opener? and is 4 gate still a viable strat in pvp? as in to make your standard? 4 gates and 3 gates actually work more than they used to. I normally use it in most my PvP's because the late game is so random and boring | ||
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SharkBait
United States36 Posts
High diamond protoss btw thanks | ||
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jrent
Netherlands2 Posts
When i go fort fast expent a lot of Times the zerk player just make mass zerklings and i cant hold them that early on i have then 2 canons what is the best thing i can do? And i lose a lot of times when i go ffe vs 6 pool because my pylon is pretty far away from my minerals to keep sending my workers to try to hold ( when i dont scout the 6 pool ) | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 20 2011 01:07 SharkBait wrote: Just curious, but what do you guys transition into after going FFE into double stargate against zerg? High diamond protoss btw thanks Forge FE will most likely force hydras. To kill them you probably need colossus (the most standard one), HTs with storm or zealots with charge. All of these are viable depending on the situation but colossus is a lot easier than most other army comps, for example zealots with charge are only good at a thin timing. On December 20 2011 01:28 jrent wrote: Hello, When i go fort fast expent a lot of Times the zerk player just make mass zerklings and i cant hold them that early on i have then 2 canons what is the best thing i can do? And i lose a lot of times when i go ffe vs 6 pool because my pylon is pretty far away from my minerals to keep sending my workers to try to hold ( when i dont scout the 6 pool ) You need a wall of other structures. You can create it using pylons, the forge as well as gateway(s) and later on the cybernetics core. Put the cannons behind the wall and his zerglings are useless. If you fight a 6pool you need to make a pylon and a cannon at your main. The forge and pylon at your natural will die so from here you should tech and 1gate or 3gate expand depending on if the zerg is making units or drones. You should also have an economic advantage after this if you didn't lose many probes. | ||
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