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Hi there. Platinum Protoss here, and I am confused in PvP when it comes to expanding (yes, expo in PvP lol)
My starter is always 3gate robo, getting obs and a couple immortals and take it from there.
What I'm really wondering is how do you execute a safe expand in PvP? (or safest possible) When it comes to that of course.
When 4-gate timings are over, both players are about even. It's probably around 7-9 minutes sometime.
To be more specific:
With a 3 gate robo opening, what should I produce to expand most safely?
When should I do it?
Should I produce colossus to have a mass damage dealer, or should I stick to gateway units for a while?
How do I build probes? (Like should I produce non-stop, or should I try to sneak them in here and there? should I cut probes at all if I'm gonna try to expand?)
I do know abit about the basics behind PvP in general. I'm only confused when it comes to expanding.
I know you have to scout alot to be able to react to your opponent, so there is no correct answer to what I'm asking in the specific questions her.
I just find it very hard to read the other player oftenly, since I'm not really able to tell when he's preparing for an attack.
What I'm asking for here is that if someone can put down their thoughts about pvp mentality in general when it comes down to expanding. Not looking for specific build orders, but playing the safest possible and at the same time not getting too much behind 
Cheers and thanks in advance
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On December 16 2011 06:16 hersimp wrote:Hi there. Platinum Protoss here, and I am confused in PvP when it comes to expanding (yes, expo in PvP lol) My starter is always 3gate robo, getting obs and a couple immortals and take it from there. What I'm really wondering is how do you execute a safe expand in PvP? (or safest possible) When it comes to that of course. When 4-gate timings are over, both players are about even. It's probably around 7-9 minutes sometime. To be more specific: With a 3 gate robo opening, what should I produce to expand most safely? When should I do it? Should I produce colossus to have a mass damage dealer, or should I stick to gateway units for a while? How do I build probes? (Like should I produce non-stop, or should I try to sneak them in here and there?) I do know abit about the basics behind PvP in general. I'm only confused when it comes to expanding. I know you have to scout alot to be able to react to your opponent, so there is no correct answer to what I'm asking in the specific questions her. I just find it very hard to read the other player oftenly, since I'm not really able to tell when he's preparing for an attack. What I'm asking for here is that if someone can put down their thoughts about pvp mentality in general when it comes down to expanding. Not looking for specific build orders, but playing the safest possible and at the same time not getting too much behind Cheers and thanks in advance
It's kinda based on a bunch of reads. Generally, if the 4gate timing passes and I go robo tech, I expand after I have an immortal. Constant scouting with a probe will help you not get caught off guard. Make an obs after your immortal and scout around his base.
If you see a Robo, make Colo. If you see a Twilight and a bunch of Stalkers, then make more immortals. If you see a Stargate with no expo, I'm not too sure what to do, but I just wall up my natural like what'd you do vs Zerg and make a Twilight and pray for Blink to finish.
Just remember to constantly try to find out what they're doing, through an obs or a probe (to see if he attacks or not.)
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On December 16 2011 06:16 hersimp wrote:Hi there. Platinum Protoss here, and I am confused in PvP when it comes to expanding (yes, expo in PvP lol) My starter is always 3gate robo, getting obs and a couple immortals and take it from there. What I'm really wondering is how do you execute a safe expand in PvP? (or safest possible) When it comes to that of course. When 4-gate timings are over, both players are about even. It's probably around 7-9 minutes sometime. To be more specific: With a 3 gate robo opening, what should I produce to expand most safely? When should I do it? Should I produce colossus to have a mass damage dealer, or should I stick to gateway units for a while? How do I build probes? (Like should I produce non-stop, or should I try to sneak them in here and there?) I do know abit about the basics behind PvP in general. I'm only confused when it comes to expanding. I know you have to scout alot to be able to react to your opponent, so there is no correct answer to what I'm asking in the specific questions her. I just find it very hard to read the other player oftenly, since I'm not really able to tell when he's preparing for an attack. What I'm asking for here is that if someone can put down their thoughts about pvp mentality in general when it comes down to expanding. Not looking for specific build orders, but playing the safest possible and at the same time not getting too much behind Cheers and thanks in advance
expanding in pvp is kind of retarded because of the lack of TIME it takes to reinforce in tandem with the placing yourself in a more vulnerable position, as in you no longer have a ramp to defend, but actual space, which is really tough since the value of your units in offensive and defensive stances is relatively equal, along with that you have exactly 400 or more minerals tied up outside of your forces.
thus, it is hard to expand in general, but easier to expand on maps where defending your natural expansion sets you up in a still relatively defensible position, like on shakuras plateau, where you are still defending a ramp, albeit one that is twice the size of your main ramp.
mutual safe play, usually in the form where both players are covering many bases by getting a twilight for blink as well as a robotics for obs and perhaps immortals, lends itself to games that favor expansions more than others. In a situaion where I open robo-blink and my opponent does something similar, I feel comfortable in expanding on shak. this will precipitate one of two situations:
my opponent goes for an all-in, either one that has blink stalkers and immortals in conjunction with zealots as a mineral dump and perhaps some sentries, or one that has colossi and favors a lot of zealots because of the gas restraints of colossus play.
against blink immortal play, you must stress sentries in order to deny that their stalkers can hit anything but your zealots without exposing themselves to your immortals and stalkers. this negates any advantage blink would have given him, unless he tries to be cutesy by blinking into your base. dealing with this is just a matter of effectively segmenting your army into 2- one that is comprised of sentries zealots immortals and some stalkers to ff and hold the front if there is a bust there, and another that is composed of mostly stalkers and maybe an immortal to deal with the in-base threat; as long as you don't take significant damage, you are getting further ahead every second you're alive, assuming you have increased your number of production to accurately reflect your increase in income.
against the colossus centered all-in, you're going to want to simply make as much shit as possible, or start colossus production yourself and, although you should be down 1-2 colo in the actual fight, you can use your defensive position to your advantage as best as possible, creating a strong spread of colo so that no more than 1 can be hit by an enemy colossus at any time. The real victor of these fights is he who can amass the bigger mass of cannon fodder so that your colossi remain protected. This advantage begins to have less effects as the number of colossi reaches 4 and greater numbers, as any amount of fodder will die much too quickly.
edit: the other situation is, of course, your opponent expanding as well. i recommend getting a lot of probes out and keeping an eye on his saturation; a lot of pvp's are won and lost because:
the first expanding player doesn't know about his opponent's expansion, and consequently is wary to add additional probes; the 2nd expanding player might have expanded later, but because he saw that his opponent started his expansion, he is able to crank out more probes and make up for the discrepancy in time that the nexus was actually up, setting himself up much better for 2 base play than his opponent; huk vs nani on antigua shipyard rings true here.
because you must monitor your 1 base probe production much more rigorously in pvp as opposed to other matchups, we often let this carry over into our 2 base play. if you scout an expansion, get a lot more probes than you're used to IN PVP
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United States8476 Posts
On December 16 2011 06:16 hersimp wrote:Hi there. Platinum Protoss here, and I am confused in PvP when it comes to expanding (yes, expo in PvP lol) My starter is always 3gate robo, getting obs and a couple immortals and take it from there. What I'm really wondering is how do you execute a safe expand in PvP? (or safest possible) When it comes to that of course. When 4-gate timings are over, both players are about even. It's probably around 7-9 minutes sometime. To be more specific: With a 3 gate robo opening, what should I produce to expand most safely? When should I do it? Should I produce colossus to have a mass damage dealer, or should I stick to gateway units for a while? How do I build probes? (Like should I produce non-stop, or should I try to sneak them in here and there? should I cut probes at all if I'm gonna try to expand?) I do know abit about the basics behind PvP in general. I'm only confused when it comes to expanding. I know you have to scout alot to be able to react to your opponent, so there is no correct answer to what I'm asking in the specific questions her. I just find it very hard to read the other player oftenly, since I'm not really able to tell when he's preparing for an attack. What I'm asking for here is that if someone can put down their thoughts about pvp mentality in general when it comes down to expanding. Not looking for specific build orders, but playing the safest possible and at the same time not getting too much behind Cheers and thanks in advance
I'll do a little mini guide on this.
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So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game
User was banned for this post.
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United States8476 Posts
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On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game
they're not awful. they're taking a calculated risk just like you are. play the game not the player.
the key is to not pull your probes too soon, just late enough so that you can block the little enclave you've made with your initial buildings. you should be able to start a cannon and a gateway before they reach you, so you just have to cover whatever hole is left until the cannon finishes.
on tal'darim this isn't possible, so you have to sac your pylon/forge at your nat and start a pylon and then a cannon in your mins asap
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On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game
What is actually wrong with you? are you actually for real. Listen buddy. If you dont scout the zerg first, you scout again with your 13 forge probe. If you scout an early pool. Just sim city your gateways and pylons till your cannon finishes. Plus you are not behind by that much if your gateway expand. I 1 gate expand every game and can still win.
Less BM please
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On December 16 2011 07:07 SpeCtor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game What is actually wrong with you? are you actually for real. Listen buddy. If you dont scout the zerg first, you scout again with your 13 forge probe. If you scout an early pool. Just sim city your gateways and pylons till your cannon finishes. Plus you are not behind by that much if your gateway expand. I 1 gate expand every game and can still win. Less BM please
dissolve the situation with kindness and the merit of your ideas, not with your own conception of the e-peen; you might think you appear to descend from a rational, ivory tower with your "are you actually for real" this and that, but at the end of the day, you realize, life is just too short.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 16 2011 07:10 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:07 SpeCtor wrote:On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game What is actually wrong with you? are you actually for real. Listen buddy. If you dont scout the zerg first, you scout again with your 13 forge probe. If you scout an early pool. Just sim city your gateways and pylons till your cannon finishes. Plus you are not behind by that much if your gateway expand. I 1 gate expand every game and can still win. Less BM please dissolve the situation with kindness and the merit of your ideas, not with your own conception of the e-peen; you might think you appear to descend from a rational, ivory tower with your "are you actually for real" this and that, but at the end of the day, you realize, life is just too short.
wtf lol
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On December 16 2011 07:12 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:10 Alejandrisha wrote:On December 16 2011 07:07 SpeCtor wrote:On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game What is actually wrong with you? are you actually for real. Listen buddy. If you dont scout the zerg first, you scout again with your 13 forge probe. If you scout an early pool. Just sim city your gateways and pylons till your cannon finishes. Plus you are not behind by that much if your gateway expand. I 1 gate expand every game and can still win. Less BM please dissolve the situation with kindness and the merit of your ideas, not with your own conception of the e-peen; you might think you appear to descend from a rational, ivory tower with your "are you actually for real" this and that, but at the end of the day, you realize, life is just too short. wtf lol
it's a build i'm working on 
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Thanks for all the help, guys. Really helpful insights.
Looking forward to your miniguide, NrGmonk
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On December 16 2011 07:10 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:07 SpeCtor wrote:On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game What is actually wrong with you? are you actually for real. Listen buddy. If you dont scout the zerg first, you scout again with your 13 forge probe. If you scout an early pool. Just sim city your gateways and pylons till your cannon finishes. Plus you are not behind by that much if your gateway expand. I 1 gate expand every game and can still win. Less BM please dissolve the situation with kindness and the merit of your ideas, not with your own conception of the e-peen; you might think you appear to descend from a rational, ivory tower with your "are you actually for real" this and that, but at the end of the day, you realize, life is just too short.
Might wanna post this in the "Recent Realizations" thread bro...
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On December 16 2011 07:28 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 07:10 Alejandrisha wrote:On December 16 2011 07:07 SpeCtor wrote:On December 16 2011 07:02 fuckzerg wrote:
So how come zergs can just early pool and kill my ffe every game? Since all zergs are flat out awful, they all open pool before overlord. even with a 13 forge, I cant hold this shit. And dont tell me to not ffe, because thats like telling me to play from behind every game What is actually wrong with you? are you actually for real. Listen buddy. If you dont scout the zerg first, you scout again with your 13 forge probe. If you scout an early pool. Just sim city your gateways and pylons till your cannon finishes. Plus you are not behind by that much if your gateway expand. I 1 gate expand every game and can still win. Less BM please dissolve the situation with kindness and the merit of your ideas, not with your own conception of the e-peen; you might think you appear to descend from a rational, ivory tower with your "are you actually for real" this and that, but at the end of the day, you realize, life is just too short. Might wanna post this in the "Recent Realizations" thread bro...
for me it's less of a recent realization, and more stemming from my hopes that the collective brotosses around here will adhere to the principles of brotosserly love and not lash out at one another just because it might feel real nice for a min cuz it's the internets
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I feel that I need some inspiration for the upcoming season as I want to play all maps, including Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga Caverns and Arid Plateau where FFE doesn't feel as good as on other maps. My problem is that all guides nowadays are FFE based and I tried out C vs Z style but I never really liked it. Therefor I'm searching for a solid way to play out the midgame off any Gateway expand build. There must be someone out there that has seen or has his own solid build that does not require a Forge before Gateway?
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On December 16 2011 09:03 Tekakan wrote:
I feel that I need some inspiration for the upcoming season as I want to play all maps, including Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga Caverns and Arid Plateau where FFE doesn't feel as good as on other maps. My problem is that all guides nowadays are FFE based and I tried out C vs Z style but I never really liked it. Therefor I'm searching for a solid way to play out the midgame off any Gateway expand build. There must be someone out there that has seen or has his own solid build that does not require a Forge before Gateway?
I think Huk's or white-ra's streams could prove to be helpful, they both do 1-3 gate sentry expand sometimes on maps like metalopolis and xel'naga, Huk is specially aggressive after he gets enough sentries and tries to do a lot of damage using them ^^.
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Mid-Diamond toss here. Had a really weird PvT today where I got absolutely crushed.
I saw that my economy was absolutely awful during the game, and perhaps that's the reason I lost in the end (and that I didn't notice the armory with my obs) but even then, even if I knew what was coming, I can't think up a way to beat the composition he went for. Banshee opening into Thors, 1 port 1 fact 4 rax all in off of one base with SCVs repairing Thors once there's 3 of them.
http://drop.sc/75098
Help from experienced high level toss much appreciated.
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Hi, im a diamond protoss.
Just a quick question, is there a way to punish a 1 Rax Gasless Expo from a Terran if I have already decide not to FE myself? Is a straight up 4gate a good strat against this? Or is another type of early pressure recommended? Any advice would be appreciated
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On December 16 2011 17:56 Latchy wrote:
Hi, im a diamond protoss.
Just a quick question, is there a way to punish a 1 Rax Gasless Expo from a Terran if I have already decide not to FE myself? Is a straight up 4gate a good strat against this? Or is another type of early pressure recommended? Any advice would be appreciated
Yes there is, but it will always be a huge gamble, cause if you dont do enough economic damage(and we are talking about killing a ridiculous number of SCVs due to double mule) you will be behind. 1 gate into twillight counsil with blink, then add 2 more gates. The most important thing to remember is to deny all scv scouting. Dont let him see that you are not taking an early nexus, and make him believe that you are so. A normal time to expand would be around the time your first stalker pops out. So send your probe to your expo, making it seem like you are just about to expo before you deny his SCV any more scouting. Then spend a lot of chronos on your blink, and get a proxy pylon up. If you have done all of this well, he will have no clue what is about to happen, and you can focus his bunker down so fast with your 7-8 stalkers, and from there it's hard to lose.
There is also another variation, which her0 did vs Puma. It's a lot more simple. 4 gate and run past the initial bunker with your zealot/stalker. Then warp in from the lowground pylon to the highground.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 16 2011 17:56 Latchy wrote:
Hi, im a diamond protoss.
Just a quick question, is there a way to punish a 1 Rax Gasless Expo from a Terran if I have already decide not to FE myself? Is a straight up 4gate a good strat against this? Or is another type of early pressure recommended? Any advice would be appreciated
Sometimes 3gate blink stalker can work; an example is Naniwa vs Thorzain during the TSL 3 finals on Terminus. 4gate can also work but only if they play greedy as hell and they don't make a couple of bunkers when/if they scout you not expanding, so it's down to them screwing up more than your build exploiting a weakness.
My favourite reaction is expand myself a bit later and then 6gate them, since it's unlikely he will have stim and almost impossible he will have medivacs, but even then if he sees it coming he should still hold it off.
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EPT
