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On November 21 2011 13:02 Chelch wrote:
Could anybody give me an incredibly basic, step by step guide to playing standard PvZ when you forge expand? I've been going stargate a lot, but I don't understand the transitions, and I don't know what I need to make, when, and what my basic aims are. I've gotten to high-diamond pretty much by winging my PvZ, but I think I really need a game plan.
I've looked at some replays, but I can't find many decent ones, so if anyone also knew any good replays for reference I'd appreciate that.
The standard is you getting some voidrays, maybe 1-3, and a few phoenixes as well for lifting queens and then go harass and kill anything you can. While you do that you tech colossus and get around 5 gates as well as 1/1 upgrades. Move out when you got 2 colossus and either go for a timing or take a third. Then you want to keep making stalker colossus and get a few sentries as well. If you see hive tech, or more importantly, the greater spire, you get voidrays from 1-2 stargates. Don't lose your army.
Answers:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 21 2011 15:37 eugalp wrote:
1. You can send more than one probe out. Hide a probe somewhere on the map. Scout with zealots. If he went early gas and he also has enough lings to take out 2 zealots, that should be enough of a tell to start making additional cannons. If the zerg is doing those things, he is cutting his econ big time so you will not be far behind even if you make blind cannons and he doesn't make roaches. Also don't send the zealots by themselves, I think Naniwa did that. 2. If you scout the 3 drones in gas mining more than 100 gas it's probably an all. This one is a bit weird though because of the expo cancel but Naniwa should have expected something and gotten at least one more cannon I think. Especially when his zealots get killed off by more than 4-6 lings. The optimal reaction is getting a lot of cannons and as many sentries as possible. Then walling off again behind your first wall if the zerg breaks it. Get the stargate only when you feel you can survive without those resources. 3. I think you can forge FE on those maps but it's not going to be easy. Luckily most zergs don't go for this 7rr anymore.
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What do I do against mass stalker immortal?
I went chargelots... but immortals do A LOT of damage.
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On November 21 2011 19:27 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 15:37 eugalp wrote:
1. You can send more than one probe out. Hide a probe somewhere on the map. Scout with zealots. If he went early gas and he also has enough lings to take out 2 zealots, that should be enough of a tell to start making additional cannons. If the zerg is doing those things, he is cutting his econ big time so you will not be far behind even if you make blind cannons and he doesn't make roaches. Also don't send the zealots by themselves, I think Naniwa did that.
You can send the zealot by himself if you know how to micro him. 1 zealot should kill 4 zerglings with good micro. Then I just apply the rsvp rule of thumb : > 4 zerglings = I get 1 or 2 more blind cannons.
You should also send a scouting probe right behind your first zealot (but far away so the zerglings don't see). Zerg loses vision of the watch tower when he is fighting your zealot and you can sneak the probe by.
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On November 21 2011 19:46 mizU wrote:
What do I do against mass stalker immortal?
I went chargelots... but immortals do A LOT of damage.
Two base colossi turtle with a couple of immortals ? Your question isn't precise enough, what time in the game are you talking about ?
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United States8477 Posts
On November 21 2011 20:03 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 19:27 Latedi wrote:On November 21 2011 15:37 eugalp wrote:
1. You can send more than one probe out. Hide a probe somewhere on the map. Scout with zealots. If he went early gas and he also has enough lings to take out 2 zealots, that should be enough of a tell to start making additional cannons. If the zerg is doing those things, he is cutting his econ big time so you will not be far behind even if you make blind cannons and he doesn't make roaches. Also don't send the zealots by themselves, I think Naniwa did that. You can send the zealot by himself if you know how to micro him. 1 zealot should kill 4 zerglings with good micro. Then I just apply the rsvp rule of thumb : > 4 zerglings = I get 1 or 2 more blind cannons. You should also send a scouting probe right behind your first zealot (but far away so the zerglings don't see). Zerg loses vision of the watch tower when he is fighting your zealot and you can sneak the probe by.
I also always sac a probe into the zerg main versus gas builds to see if they've mined additional gas. It's quite hard to deny this scout as zerg, because speed will not have finished. The only way is if the zerg keeps all 4 lings at his natural and that's very suspicious.
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On November 21 2011 20:03 Geiko wrote:
You should also send a scouting probe right behind your first zealot (but far away so the zerglings don't see). Zerg loses vision of the watch tower when he is fighting your zealot and you can sneak the probe by.
This is a fantastic tip, thank you - I have never thought about that before.
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Uuh don't make blind cannons if you see 4 lings, they are pretty standard xD Rather get more if you see 6+ or speed imo.
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On November 21 2011 20:29 Latedi wrote:
Uuh don't make blind cannons if you see 4 lings, they are pretty standard xD Rather get more if you see 6+ or speed imo.
">" means stricly superior.
>4 lings means 6 or more lings.
I thought it was pretty clear since I said one zealot could kill 4 lings.
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On November 21 2011 20:36 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:29 Latedi wrote:
Uuh don't make blind cannons if you see 4 lings, they are pretty standard xD Rather get more if you see 6+ or speed imo. ">" means stricly superior. >4 lings means 6 or more lings. I thought it was pretty clear since I said one zealot could kill 4 lings.
Oh snap I have my own rule of thumb XD
Just a note of clarification though, with correct micro on both sides, a zealot can take out 4 slowlings but 4 speedlings should take out 1 zealot. That's another reason why it's great to keep a probe behind the zealot, so that you can battle 4 speedlings with zealot + probe which you should win. Either that or use 2 zealots. However, a lot of times even though the zerg has 4 speedlings they will be spread around the map with some lings at watchtowers, etc., so if you know that the zerg has 4 speedlings on the map but only 1 or 2 are in front of your base, it's still safe to send out a zealot by itself since it'll get a few hits off before the lings can regroup, and then 1 zealot > 4 damaged speedlings.
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On November 21 2011 20:36 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:29 Latedi wrote:
Uuh don't make blind cannons if you see 4 lings, they are pretty standard xD Rather get more if you see 6+ or speed imo. ">" means stricly superior. >4 lings means 6 or more lings. I thought it was pretty clear since I said one zealot could kill 4 lings.
Oh... I thouht it was a happy smiley :>
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After my experience laddering this week (Hi 18% win ratio vs Zerg. T_T) and watching Naniwa vs Lennock...
Have Zerg's figured out FFE on maps that aren't TDA, Shakuras? It seems like those 7 roaches are going to do damage no matter what, and the Zerg is free to do whatever the hell he wants behind it. I understand if the Zerg player expands first that the roaches are going to come in somewhat delayed, but in the games I've played it seems like that my stargate won't get done in time to chase off his Roaches with VRs. Suggestions?
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On November 21 2011 22:41 Rohan wrote:
After my experience laddering this week (Hi 18% win ratio vs Zerg. T_T) and watching Naniwa vs Lennock...
Have Zerg's figured out FFE on maps that aren't TDA, Shakuras? It seems like those 7 roaches are going to do damage no matter what, and the Zerg is free to do whatever the hell he wants behind it. I understand if the Zerg player expands first that the roaches are going to come in somewhat delayed, but in the games I've played it seems like that my stargate won't get done in time to chase off his Roaches with VRs. Suggestions?
Honestly it depends. If you did scout it coming, with good cannon placements you actually can defend pretty well with minimal losses so the zerg would actually be behind. For example take a look at HuK vs Leenock at Antiga. HuK's simcity only uses the pylon and forge as wall while he has his cybercore at the back. In this case, if he had a cannon to cover his forge, a cannon to cover his nexus, he would be able to keep the roaches at bay until his stalkers come out. Even in the Naniwa Leenock game on shattered temple, you saw how Naniwa's 1 stalker can chase away the few roaches before the nexus even came close to going down. It just takes good scouting, good simcity and good crisis management.
Of course, you don't simply go doing it on maps like Xelnaga it would take ridiculous amount of work to hold it off.
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On November 21 2011 20:09 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:03 Geiko wrote:On November 21 2011 19:27 Latedi wrote:On November 21 2011 15:37 eugalp wrote:
1. You can send more than one probe out. Hide a probe somewhere on the map. Scout with zealots. If he went early gas and he also has enough lings to take out 2 zealots, that should be enough of a tell to start making additional cannons. If the zerg is doing those things, he is cutting his econ big time so you will not be far behind even if you make blind cannons and he doesn't make roaches. Also don't send the zealots by themselves, I think Naniwa did that. You can send the zealot by himself if you know how to micro him. 1 zealot should kill 4 zerglings with good micro. Then I just apply the rsvp rule of thumb : > 4 zerglings = I get 1 or 2 more blind cannons. You should also send a scouting probe right behind your first zealot (but far away so the zerglings don't see). Zerg loses vision of the watch tower when he is fighting your zealot and you can sneak the probe by. I also always sac a probe into the zerg main versus gas builds to see if they've mined additional gas. It's quite hard to deny this scout as zerg, because speed will not have finished. The only way is if the zerg keeps all 4 lings at his natural and that's very suspicious.
I've seen zergs quickly pull drones back to minerals when seeing a probe enter their base. Then resume mining gas when the probe is gone. :/
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On November 21 2011 23:59 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:09 NrGmonk wrote:On November 21 2011 20:03 Geiko wrote:On November 21 2011 19:27 Latedi wrote:On November 21 2011 15:37 eugalp wrote:
1. You can send more than one probe out. Hide a probe somewhere on the map. Scout with zealots. If he went early gas and he also has enough lings to take out 2 zealots, that should be enough of a tell to start making additional cannons. If the zerg is doing those things, he is cutting his econ big time so you will not be far behind even if you make blind cannons and he doesn't make roaches. Also don't send the zealots by themselves, I think Naniwa did that. You can send the zealot by himself if you know how to micro him. 1 zealot should kill 4 zerglings with good micro. Then I just apply the rsvp rule of thumb : > 4 zerglings = I get 1 or 2 more blind cannons. You should also send a scouting probe right behind your first zealot (but far away so the zerglings don't see). Zerg loses vision of the watch tower when he is fighting your zealot and you can sneak the probe by. I also always sac a probe into the zerg main versus gas builds to see if they've mined additional gas. It's quite hard to deny this scout as zerg, because speed will not have finished. The only way is if the zerg keeps all 4 lings at his natural and that's very suspicious. I've seen zergs quickly pull drones back to minerals when seeing a probe enter their base. Then resume mining gas when the probe is gone. :/
You always click on the gas to check if more then 100 has been harvested ^^
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...
I just had a guy turtle and then go mass muta. I tried to push out... I killed his third but then he came in and with a HUGE ball of mutas just started killing everything. Do I just play defensive the whole time?
It was so frustrating.
What should I have done?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15470
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i hear pheonixes are good againt 1-1-1. If i have 1 gate expo'd and then got an obs out and then spied he is going for a 1-1-1 is it too late to throw down a stargate and get a couple of pheonix for lifting tanks and for banshees? and if you do go pheonix to lift the tanks does that mean you don't really bother getting many immortals
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On November 22 2011 08:39 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i hear pheonixes are good againt 1-1-1. If i have 1 gate expo'd and then got an obs out and then spied he is going for a 1-1-1 is it too late to throw down a stargate and get a couple of pheonix for lifting tanks and for banshees? and if you do go pheonix to lift the tanks does that mean you don't really bother getting many immortals
I wouldn't go reactionary SG. It's only really if you go SG already that it works. Otherwise, you have too small an army to really deal with him. I would suggest just keep going the way you are with gates and a robo. Get an obs to see when he moves out as you create mostly zealots. Move out to engage rather than engage at your natural. Those are the things that work the best for me. Don't try anything cute like tech switching to air after you've already go robo and obs. You'll die to a push when you barely have any air out yet.
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On November 22 2011 08:45 To3-Knee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:39 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i hear pheonixes are good againt 1-1-1. If i have 1 gate expo'd and then got an obs out and then spied he is going for a 1-1-1 is it too late to throw down a stargate and get a couple of pheonix for lifting tanks and for banshees? and if you do go pheonix to lift the tanks does that mean you don't really bother getting many immortals I wouldn't go reactionary SG. It's only really if you go SG already that it works. Otherwise, you have too small an army to really deal with him. I would suggest just keep going the way you are with gates and a robo. Get an obs to see when he moves out as you create mostly zealots. Move out to engage rather than engage at your natural. Those are the things that work the best for me. Don't try anything cute like tech switching to air after you've already go robo and obs. You'll die to a push when you barely have any air out yet.
Agreed. However, if you go by the standard 1 robo 4 gate immortal/zealot/sentry defense against 1-1-1 and the 1-1-1 comes at a bit later timing and/or you've scouted 3+ banshees, it is a good idea to add a stargate later on to help deal with the banshees since normally you rely on stalker warp-ins to clean up the banshees after dealing with the ground and if there are 3-4+ banshees stalker warp-ins might not be enough.
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On November 22 2011 09:00 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:45 To3-Knee wrote:On November 22 2011 08:39 ThePianoDentist wrote:
i hear pheonixes are good againt 1-1-1. If i have 1 gate expo'd and then got an obs out and then spied he is going for a 1-1-1 is it too late to throw down a stargate and get a couple of pheonix for lifting tanks and for banshees? and if you do go pheonix to lift the tanks does that mean you don't really bother getting many immortals I wouldn't go reactionary SG. It's only really if you go SG already that it works. Otherwise, you have too small an army to really deal with him. I would suggest just keep going the way you are with gates and a robo. Get an obs to see when he moves out as you create mostly zealots. Move out to engage rather than engage at your natural. Those are the things that work the best for me. Don't try anything cute like tech switching to air after you've already go robo and obs. You'll die to a push when you barely have any air out yet. Agreed. However, if you go by the standard 1 robo 4 gate immortal/zealot/sentry defense against 1-1-1 and the 1-1-1 comes at a bit later timing and/or you've scouted 3+ banshees, it is a good idea to add a stargate later on to help deal with the banshees since normally you rely on stalker warp-ins to clean up the banshees after dealing with the ground and if there are 3-4+ banshees stalker warp-ins might not be enough.
I may have to try a late SG addition then. How I've tried to deal with more than "normal" number of banshees is to get a few pre-emptive stalker rounds and try to get blink up. That of course sucks when my crappy micro can't keep them alive until the end to properly deal with banshees. I usually just slow down immo production in favour of more stalkers, but I'd like to play around with the possibility of adding in a SG somewhere in there. I do however feel if you misread and are caught with your pants down trying to get a stargate up, it is likely game over.
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PVP question:
What in gods name do i do if we both go 3 gate phoenix?
Can i transition out or am i stuck perpetually making phoenix incase i lose air dominance and is that really an important factor in PvP?
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EPT
