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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On November 10 2011 09:07 Kluey wrote:
Response to proxy hatch?
Maybe this will answer your question:
On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 10 2011 09:07 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:15 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 09 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 06:23 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones. Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on. DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game. Well this all depends on how you use the DTs and what strategy you go for. The strategy I'm describing is very different from a 1gate straight up DT rush. Anytime you do a DT opener in any match up and it does no damage, you're behind. It might not be by that much and definitely recoverable from, but you could have been in a better position had you not gone DTs. This applies to both DT expand and expand > DTs. Well yes of course it is not optimal, but DTs are usabel in more than one way so it's not gg. Are you sure you are always in a better position though? Sometimes DTs really save my life and they also make the opponent paranoid. For example they might get too much detection. Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won. You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past. Does that mean you can go warp prism with sentries and kill like 5 drones in the eggs with maybe 2 forcefields? That would be kind of awesome. Of course they might be cancelled but that's still 5 larvae.
They just don't pop until the FF is done. 
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On November 10 2011 09:47 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:07 Latedi wrote:On November 10 2011 04:15 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 09 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 06:23 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:
[quote]
I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now.
[quote]
The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important.
[quote]
Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones. Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on. DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game. Well this all depends on how you use the DTs and what strategy you go for. The strategy I'm describing is very different from a 1gate straight up DT rush. Anytime you do a DT opener in any match up and it does no damage, you're behind. It might not be by that much and definitely recoverable from, but you could have been in a better position had you not gone DTs. This applies to both DT expand and expand > DTs. Well yes of course it is not optimal, but DTs are usabel in more than one way so it's not gg. Are you sure you are always in a better position though? Sometimes DTs really save my life and they also make the opponent paranoid. For example they might get too much detection. On November 10 2011 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won. You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past. Does that mean you can go warp prism with sentries and kill like 5 drones in the eggs with maybe 2 forcefields? That would be kind of awesome. Of course they might be cancelled but that's still 5 larvae. They just don't pop until the FF is done.
Yeah ok, I thought it was too good to be true :<
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 10 2011 09:48 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:47 ZeromuS wrote:On November 10 2011 09:07 Latedi wrote:On November 10 2011 04:15 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 09 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 06:23 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones. Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on. DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game. Well this all depends on how you use the DTs and what strategy you go for. The strategy I'm describing is very different from a 1gate straight up DT rush. Anytime you do a DT opener in any match up and it does no damage, you're behind. It might not be by that much and definitely recoverable from, but you could have been in a better position had you not gone DTs. This applies to both DT expand and expand > DTs. Well yes of course it is not optimal, but DTs are usabel in more than one way so it's not gg. Are you sure you are always in a better position though? Sometimes DTs really save my life and they also make the opponent paranoid. For example they might get too much detection. On November 10 2011 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won. You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past. Does that mean you can go warp prism with sentries and kill like 5 drones in the eggs with maybe 2 forcefields? That would be kind of awesome. Of course they might be cancelled but that's still 5 larvae. They just don't pop until the FF is done. Yeah ok, I thought it was too good to be true :<
But if you get up a ramp, then you FF the ramp and FF the potential reinforcements while you snipe a hatchery if you have the energy for it  Super situational but really nice when theres a proxy hatch making roaches in your base
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Plat Toss player here.
I always hear things like 'poke them,' don't let z just sit there and macro. Don't let T get complete map control.
The problem I find is how does Protoss play aggressively? How do you make harassment and pokes worth the investment? How does one play Protoss 'aggressively?'
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On November 10 2011 11:45 konnect wrote:
Plat Toss player here.
I always hear things like 'poke them,' don't let z just sit there and macro. Don't let T get complete map control.
The problem I find is how does Protoss play aggressively? How do you make harassment and pokes worth the investment? How does one play Protoss 'aggressively?'
Most zergs place a zergling or 2 at the bottom of your ramp to scout for when you push out. You can kill those to fake some aggression. They also usually have zerglings at watchtowers, so killing those helps too. Keep the zerg guessing whether he should build units or drones. Scout the zerg army with a probe before you commit to an actual attack though. Getting your army crushed early game will probably lose you the game right there.
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Canada13407 Posts
I lost to a super cheese tonight from Zerg. They 6 pooled me so I built a cannon in my base as I should. Then they built a hatchery in my base and over ran me with lings and spine crawlers. This was on shak. I don't think a replay is necessary :/
I lost my forge as usual, built a gateway and proceeded to prepared to do a 3 gate expand to my nat. Unfortunately I lost when i saw the creep as I moved my zealot a little farther forward.
Should I be defending my base and scouting it with a zealot and lets say 4 probes when my first zealot pops to prevent this? I scouted his nat and saw no base and I saw no gas with a probe I had hidden so I figured he might be expanding somewhere else or making many many zerglings. I didn't expect an in base hatchery. Tips or suggestions? Generally I find my response to someone who 6 pools me incorrect. As in, if they only make the initial 6 lings then i turtle too far back in my base and don't move to expand at a good enough time to let me survive a 2 base roach push for example.
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On November 10 2011 12:15 ZeromuS wrote:
I lost to a super cheese tonight from Zerg. They 6 pooled me so I built a cannon in my base as I should. Then they built a hatchery in my base and over ran me with lings and spine crawlers. This was on shak. I don't think a replay is necessary :/
I lost my forge as usual, built a gateway and proceeded to prepared to do a 3 gate expand to my nat. Unfortunately I lost when i saw the creep as I moved my zealot a little farther forward.
Should I be defending my base and scouting it with a zealot and lets say 4 probes when my first zealot pops to prevent this? I scouted his nat and saw no base and I saw no gas with a probe I had hidden so I figured he might be expanding somewhere else or making many many zerglings. I didn't expect an in base hatchery. Tips or suggestions? Generally I find my response to someone who 6 pools me incorrect. As in, if they only make the initial 6 lings then i turtle too far back in my base and don't move to expand at a good enough time to let me survive a 2 base roach push for example.
Should have scanned sides of your base for anything. Upon seeing the hatchery, you'd need only place a couple cannons in range of the hatchery, and try to time them so they finish just as the Hatchery finishes.
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On November 10 2011 12:19 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:15 ZeromuS wrote:
I lost to a super cheese tonight from Zerg. They 6 pooled me so I built a cannon in my base as I should. Then they built a hatchery in my base and over ran me with lings and spine crawlers. This was on shak. I don't think a replay is necessary :/
I lost my forge as usual, built a gateway and proceeded to prepared to do a 3 gate expand to my nat. Unfortunately I lost when i saw the creep as I moved my zealot a little farther forward.
Should I be defending my base and scouting it with a zealot and lets say 4 probes when my first zealot pops to prevent this? I scouted his nat and saw no base and I saw no gas with a probe I had hidden so I figured he might be expanding somewhere else or making many many zerglings. I didn't expect an in base hatchery. Tips or suggestions? Generally I find my response to someone who 6 pools me incorrect. As in, if they only make the initial 6 lings then i turtle too far back in my base and don't move to expand at a good enough time to let me survive a 2 base roach push for example. Should have scanned sides of your base for anything. Upon seeing the hatchery, you'd need only place a couple cannons in range of the hatchery, and try to time them so they finish just as the Hatchery finishes.
Yea, if you catch the hatchery early enough I think 1 cannon is enough, because even though it can still finish, if your in range to snipe the eggs before they pop then it's not really any threat. 2 cannons is safe though so if your not sure just put 2.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 10 2011 12:19 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:15 ZeromuS wrote:
I lost to a super cheese tonight from Zerg. They 6 pooled me so I built a cannon in my base as I should. Then they built a hatchery in my base and over ran me with lings and spine crawlers. This was on shak. I don't think a replay is necessary :/
I lost my forge as usual, built a gateway and proceeded to prepared to do a 3 gate expand to my nat. Unfortunately I lost when i saw the creep as I moved my zealot a little farther forward.
Should I be defending my base and scouting it with a zealot and lets say 4 probes when my first zealot pops to prevent this? I scouted his nat and saw no base and I saw no gas with a probe I had hidden so I figured he might be expanding somewhere else or making many many zerglings. I didn't expect an in base hatchery. Tips or suggestions? Generally I find my response to someone who 6 pools me incorrect. As in, if they only make the initial 6 lings then i turtle too far back in my base and don't move to expand at a good enough time to let me survive a 2 base roach push for example. Should have scanned sides of your base for anything. Upon seeing the hatchery, you'd need only place a couple cannons in range of the hatchery, and try to time them so they finish just as the Hatchery finishes.
But at this point I had lost the forge at the front of my nat since I was 6 pooled and could not wall off the front in time. This is where even if I had scouted it im not sure how I should have responded.
It went like this:
Pylon at nat, forge at nat, scout 6 pool pylon in main, cannon in main, gate - gas - core - zealot -- omg wtf hatchery in my base and 2 spinecrawlers no forge O.O
So even If i had scouted it what is the best response considering I lost the forge?
Not only that but there are some 8 zerglings in my base which can surround my initial zealot and would kill any pylon I try to put up in range of the hatchery.
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On November 10 2011 12:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:19 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 12:15 ZeromuS wrote:
I lost to a super cheese tonight from Zerg. They 6 pooled me so I built a cannon in my base as I should. Then they built a hatchery in my base and over ran me with lings and spine crawlers. This was on shak. I don't think a replay is necessary :/
I lost my forge as usual, built a gateway and proceeded to prepared to do a 3 gate expand to my nat. Unfortunately I lost when i saw the creep as I moved my zealot a little farther forward.
Should I be defending my base and scouting it with a zealot and lets say 4 probes when my first zealot pops to prevent this? I scouted his nat and saw no base and I saw no gas with a probe I had hidden so I figured he might be expanding somewhere else or making many many zerglings. I didn't expect an in base hatchery. Tips or suggestions? Generally I find my response to someone who 6 pools me incorrect. As in, if they only make the initial 6 lings then i turtle too far back in my base and don't move to expand at a good enough time to let me survive a 2 base roach push for example. Should have scanned sides of your base for anything. Upon seeing the hatchery, you'd need only place a couple cannons in range of the hatchery, and try to time them so they finish just as the Hatchery finishes. But at this point I had lost the forge at the front of my nat since I was 6 pooled and could not wall off the front in time. This is where even if I had scouted it im not sure how I should have responded. It went like this: Pylon at nat, forge at nat, scout 6 pool pylon in main, cannon in main, gate - gas - core - zealot -- omg wtf hatchery in my base and 2 spinecrawlers no forge O.O So even If i had scouted it what is the best response considering I lost the forge? Not only that but there are some 8 zerglings in my base which can surround my initial zealot and would kill any pylon I try to put up in range of the hatchery.
You know, if you post the replay instead of trying to explain, it's easier for people to see exactly what the problem was >_>. Takes literally 30 secconds to upload to dropsc
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Just had a game with a Z on the ladder. He said I allinned him and was raging. I wasn;'t under the impression it was, I saw him take too many bases and drone too hard so I pressured him.
What do you guys think?
Replay: http://www.users.on.net/~rice69/greedyz.SC2Replay
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(First time posting) I just started playing SC2 seriously and I am messing around with zerg and toss. I want to play toss because I love the phoenix. I looked on liquipedia for the stargate after core build, but I wanted to know if that is the build that Tyler uses. I watch his stream every chance I get to get a sense of how to play toss, and I just wanted to know if anyone has a better build than whats on liquipedia. Is that the most optimized phoenix build out there?
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On November 10 2011 14:54 mundaney wrote:
(First time posting) I just started playing SC2 seriously and I am messing around with zerg and toss. I want to play toss because I love the phoenix. I looked on liquipedia for the stargate after core build, but I wanted to know if that is the build that Tyler uses. I watch his stream every chance I get to get a sense of how to play toss, and I just wanted to know if anyone has a better build than whats on liquipedia. Is that the most optimized phoenix build out there?
It's not really a good idea to just blindly go one build, especially air if your protoss. Practice your builds, yes, but blindly going Phoenix? Maybe not.
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On November 08 2011 15:22 JonnyLaw wrote:http://drop.sc/54769http://drop.sc/54768http://drop.sc/54767Here are three replays of basic gateway PvZ openings. In the metal and antiga games I 3gate expand. On antiga he takes a fast third and you can see how the push punishes him with a few units. On metal, notice the hallucinate scout. I see roaches and do not push but instead return home knowing that he's produced enough units that my push has paid for itself. In the game on Nerazim I scout his hatch first and put on light zealot/stalker pressure and one gate expand into 3gates. The games are against fairly high masters players on NA.
Hey man, just wanted to say that I enjoyed those replays and learned a fair bit. Thanks very much.
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PvZ, FFE question
What is the difference between "15 Nex/forge 17 cannon/pylon/gate" and "13 forge 17 nex"?
In other words, Nexus first VS forge first? Which one is more economical? Which one is more safe?
Does your choice between the two depend on what you scout (or do not scout) from the zerg? How specifically?
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United States8476 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:42 dama wrote:
PvZ, FFE question
What is the difference between "15 Nex/forge 17 cannon/pylon/gate" and "13 forge 17 nex"?
In other words, Nexus first VS forge first? Which one is more economical? Which one is more safe?
Does your choice between the two depend on what you scout (or do not scout) from the zerg? How specifically?
Nexus first is more economical. 13 forge 17 nex is always safe while blind 15 nex is not safe. If you scout 14 pool or later on all ffe maps, you can safely go nexus first. Depending on the map and the timing of the pool, 15 nexus may or may not be safe verus pools earlier than 14.
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How the heck do you deal with mass muta? I'm talking like 20 plus mutas. Even if you are way ahead the zerg can just keep you pinned in your base forever while he expands a bunch. Cannons dont do anything because you need multiple cannons in the mineral line to protect your workers and then the zerg will just kill pylons and your production facilities. Blink stalkers help but it forces you to spend a ton of gas on stalkers which delays other tech. Ideally I'd wanna go storm and leave a couple HTs in my base but its hard to as HTs are so gas intensive and you need the gas to mass stalkers to deal with it. Also, its impossible to take a third as you have nothing to deal with the mass ling that continually denies your base. Not to mention muta/ling are like sprinters while protoss units move like they are wheelchair bound. Warp prism harass is basically also nullified.
Halp please I'm so lost in PvZ right now with all this mass muta play  I know there is a timing window to kill zerg while they try to tech muta but aside from that what can I do to deal with this? Zerg just stays on 2 base and masses muta/ling and then mass expands while I'm stuck on 2 base. When I finally feel comfortable leaving he already has mass broods lol...
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United States8476 Posts
On November 10 2011 17:18 flipstorm wrote:How the heck do you deal with mass muta? I'm talking like 20 plus mutas. Even if you are way ahead the zerg can just keep you pinned in your base forever while he expands a bunch. Cannons dont do anything because you need multiple cannons in the mineral line to protect your workers and then the zerg will just kill pylons and your production facilities. Blink stalkers help but it forces you to spend a ton of gas on stalkers which delays other tech. Ideally I'd wanna go storm and leave a couple HTs in my base but its hard to as HTs are so gas intensive and you need the gas to mass stalkers to deal with it. Also, its impossible to take a third as you have nothing to deal with the mass ling that continually denies your base. Not to mention muta/ling are like sprinters while protoss units move like they are wheelchair bound. Warp prism harass is basically also nullified. Halp please I'm so lost in PvZ right now with all this mass muta play I know there is a timing window to kill zerg while they try to tech muta but aside from that what can I do to deal with this? Zerg just stays on 2 base and masses muta/ling and then mass expands while I'm stuck on 2 base. When I finally feel comfortable leaving he already has mass broods lol...
Check the blue post about 1 or 2 pages back. Also, check my Protoss FAQs guide linked in my profile.
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On November 10 2011 02:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 23:30 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:28 Teoita wrote:On November 09 2011 01:25 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:21 DurandaL917 wrote:On November 09 2011 01:10 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:04 Sated wrote:
Proxy 2gate is only a pain for me on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple. 2gate strategies have become common again because people have realised that their opponent always spawns on the other side of the map to them on those maps. This means that they can put proxy gateways at the opponent's third or the opponent's gold or somewhere like that and always be within range. So if you check those common areas for proxies on the way to scouting your opponent, you should be safe. On other maps, check the middle of the map or tag a tower on your way to scout, that should reveal a lot of proxy shenanigans. really only those two? I didnt know that lol So on both Metalpolis and sahttered temple its alwways cross position? You can not spawn close by ground. that leaves only 2 options at which your opponent spawned. oh right haha, never knew that, is it only those two maps? dont know how many games ive played and not noticed that or read it anywhere lol so now in theory if you were to proxy gate or 6 pool you have a 50-50 of finding the right base!! Shakuras has no vertical spawns as well, but you should know that close ground on shattered and meta was disabled in the latest patch. really??? lol god i did not know that eithier haha how many times have I wasted a scout there!!! Will have to remember or always scout the same way on all maps regardless lol So at 6 on Shattered they would spawn 12 or 9? On Shaukras if u were at 5 o clock they would spawn 7 or 11? and metal if u spawned bottom right they would be top left or bottom left? Just trying to clear it up hehe Yep, that's how it goes now \o/. Also, Shakuras has never had vertical spawns man...no idea how you could not notice that after over a year lol
yeh even im shocked that it didnt click...lol I was inactive for like 8 of the last 10 months though to be fair But the 100's of replays ive watched you would of thought I would of noticed lol I normally ALWAYS scout close positions first haha
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EPT
