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On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in.
Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time.
The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly.
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On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly.
Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones.
Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on.
DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game.
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On November 09 2011 06:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones. Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on. DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game.
Well this all depends on how you use the DTs and what strategy you go for. The strategy I'm describing is very different from a 1gate straight up DT rush.
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On November 09 2011 01:28 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 01:25 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:21 DurandaL917 wrote:On November 09 2011 01:10 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:04 Sated wrote:
Proxy 2gate is only a pain for me on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple. 2gate strategies have become common again because people have realised that their opponent always spawns on the other side of the map to them on those maps. This means that they can put proxy gateways at the opponent's third or the opponent's gold or somewhere like that and always be within range. So if you check those common areas for proxies on the way to scouting your opponent, you should be safe. On other maps, check the middle of the map or tag a tower on your way to scout, that should reveal a lot of proxy shenanigans. really only those two? I didnt know that lol So on both Metalpolis and sahttered temple its alwways cross position? You can not spawn close by ground. that leaves only 2 options at which your opponent spawned. oh right haha, never knew that, is it only those two maps? dont know how many games ive played and not noticed that or read it anywhere lol so now in theory if you were to proxy gate or 6 pool you have a 50-50 of finding the right base!! Shakuras has no vertical spawns as well, but you should know that  close ground on shattered and meta was disabled in the latest patch.
really??? lol god i did not know that eithier haha how many times have I wasted a scout there!!! Will have to remember or always scout the same way on all maps regardless lol
So at 6 on Shattered they would spawn 12 or 9?
On Shaukras if u were at 5 o clock they would spawn 7 or 11?
and metal if u spawned bottom right they would be top left or bottom left?
Just trying to clear it up hehe
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Italy12247 Posts
On November 09 2011 23:30 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 01:28 Teoita wrote:On November 09 2011 01:25 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:21 DurandaL917 wrote:On November 09 2011 01:10 Tommylew wrote:On November 09 2011 01:04 Sated wrote:
Proxy 2gate is only a pain for me on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple. 2gate strategies have become common again because people have realised that their opponent always spawns on the other side of the map to them on those maps. This means that they can put proxy gateways at the opponent's third or the opponent's gold or somewhere like that and always be within range. So if you check those common areas for proxies on the way to scouting your opponent, you should be safe. On other maps, check the middle of the map or tag a tower on your way to scout, that should reveal a lot of proxy shenanigans. really only those two? I didnt know that lol So on both Metalpolis and sahttered temple its alwways cross position? You can not spawn close by ground. that leaves only 2 options at which your opponent spawned. oh right haha, never knew that, is it only those two maps? dont know how many games ive played and not noticed that or read it anywhere lol so now in theory if you were to proxy gate or 6 pool you have a 50-50 of finding the right base!! Shakuras has no vertical spawns as well, but you should know that close ground on shattered and meta was disabled in the latest patch. really??? lol god i did not know that eithier haha how many times have I wasted a scout there!!! Will have to remember or always scout the same way on all maps regardless lol So at 6 on Shattered they would spawn 12 or 9? On Shaukras if u were at 5 o clock they would spawn 7 or 11? and metal if u spawned bottom right they would be top left or bottom left? Just trying to clear it up hehe
Yep, that's how it goes now \o/. Also, Shakuras has never had vertical spawns man...no idea how you could not notice that after over a year lol
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Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it?
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On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it?
Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it.
I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead.
If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won.
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On November 09 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 06:23 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones. Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on. DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game. Well this all depends on how you use the DTs and what strategy you go for. The strategy I'm describing is very different from a 1gate straight up DT rush.
Anytime you do a DT opener in any match up and it does no damage, you're behind. It might not be by that much and definitely recoverable from, but you could have been in a better position had you not gone DTs. This applies to both DT expand and expand > DTs.
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Canada13410 Posts
On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won.
You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past.
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On November 10 2011 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won. You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past.
Yes, I think I actually did that a couple times! Oh actually now that I think about it, the in base hatch I used FF to pin a few roaches between the hatchery and the edge of my base.
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I've been wondering this for a while and it never seems to get discussed/talked about by casters. Is observer speed something that gets researched by pros and casters never mention it? or is it something that very rarely gets used? and if people are using it when are they doing so?
Obviously I could be wrong in saying "casters never mention it" but from my recollection I don't think I've ever heard a caster mention it. Also I obviously don't mean, do people ever build a robo bay just to research observer speed but if they already have the robo do they ever research it?
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Northern Ireland27219 Posts
On November 10 2011 06:38 m3deman wrote:
I've been wondering this for a while and it never seems to get discussed/talked about by casters. Is observer speed something that gets researched by pros and casters never mention it? or is it something that very rarely gets used? and if people are using it when are they doing so?
Obviously I could be wrong in saying "casters never mention it" but from my recollection I don't think I've ever heard a caster mention it. Also I obviously don't mean, do people ever build a robo bay just to research observer speed but if they already have the robo do they ever research it?
I get observer speed only if I'm playing against some sort of mass muta + expand style. Sticking obs on Mutalisks can be pretty effective in trying to catch them as they move around sniping workers and infrastructure. Speed obs are not quite fast enough to keep up if the mutas are flying massive distances in a straight line, but if they're stopping and turning and generally moving back and forth you should be able to keep an obs on them.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 10 2011 06:52 Ubertron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:38 m3deman wrote:
I've been wondering this for a while and it never seems to get discussed/talked about by casters. Is observer speed something that gets researched by pros and casters never mention it? or is it something that very rarely gets used? and if people are using it when are they doing so?
Obviously I could be wrong in saying "casters never mention it" but from my recollection I don't think I've ever heard a caster mention it. Also I obviously don't mean, do people ever build a robo bay just to research observer speed but if they already have the robo do they ever research it?
I get observer speed only if I'm playing against some sort of mass muta + expand style. Sticking obs on Mutalisks can be pretty effective in trying to catch them as they move around sniping workers and infrastructure. Speed obs are not quite fast enough to keep up if the mutas are flying massive distances in a straight line, but if they're stopping and turning and generally moving back and forth you should be able to keep an obs on them.
I get observer speed whenever I'm playing against heavy muta play or lots of banshees.
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In regards to the question about observer speed, is it a good idea to get it and have 1-2 observers patrolling the possible expansions your opponent might take, or is it just better to keep a couple of units just walking from expansion to expansion? I usually make 1 observer for my army, 1 for their army, and 1 to keep around their base... if I add 1 or 2 more, I would end up with 4-5 observers... is that just a waste?
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Northern Ireland27219 Posts
I'd try and use zealots myself on my 'half' of the map to keep probing for expansions, and use an observer (not necessarily a speed observer) for the far to reach spots and potential ninja expo spots
My reasoning behind this may be flawed, but I figure that if you rumble their ninja expansion with a zealot they'll cancel it and invest straight back into more army and thus be more dangerous for a period, whereas if you see it with an observer - let them get it up and hit while they could be potentially more vulnerable.
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On November 10 2011 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won. You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past.
so the unit doesn't pop out until the FF is gone? or do you mean the unit is trapped instantly?
I don't think I've even seen that been used before in pro games o_O interesting, hmm!
one day people should do manner FF's on eggs then lol.
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On November 10 2011 04:15 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 06:42 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 06:23 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 05:51 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 04:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 03:41 Latedi wrote:On November 09 2011 03:11 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote:On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days? I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult? The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. Blink stalkers kill them much faster and you already have the tech for it. You have to use the map control you get to deny him scouting your third. Also don't blink into the roaches :p bad idea. You should also be able to get a wall up with a bunch of cannons and sentries in time. The point I was making is that if he keeps his overseers over his roaches, and micros them properly to keep them alive (and makes more than 1) you're not going to be sniping them with blink stalkers, so that your DT's do the work, and your flimsy army will just get rolled. DT openers are extremely risky and basically depend on your opponent to either not prepare for it with detection, or not to react to it properly. Yes but phoenixes arent much better. They won't kill overseers nearly fast enough depending on the amount of them he brings. The unit composition isnt the best but I rarely make more than 3-5 DTs. They are usually meant to try and snipe the third. If it is protected I pull them back and use them for map control at towers etc. Then in my army as a last resort. After I make these DTs i make stalker sentry from maybe 5 gateways while teching for HTs and get a robo. The blink/DT phase is very short and while I do think he could attack at that timing I don't think he can do it without cutting drones. Right, my point was simply that if you open DT's early on, you're basically hoping very hard that the enemy doesn't have detection. If he does, you're in a bad way and are quite behind. It's very risky, and almost (not quite) cheesy to go for DT's early on. DT's are great in the late mid game and the late game. Well this all depends on how you use the DTs and what strategy you go for. The strategy I'm describing is very different from a 1gate straight up DT rush. Anytime you do a DT opener in any match up and it does no damage, you're behind. It might not be by that much and definitely recoverable from, but you could have been in a better position had you not gone DTs. This applies to both DT expand and expand > DTs.
Well yes of course it is not optimal, but DTs are usabel in more than one way so it's not gg. Are you sure you are always in a better position though? Sometimes DTs really save my life and they also make the opponent paranoid. For example they might get too much detection.
On November 10 2011 05:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:53 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 10 2011 02:47 ForTheDr3am wrote:
Kinda silly question, but how do I deal with a proxyhatch if I went gateway first? I thought I could just chrono Zealots out, but it apparently wasn't fast enough to kill it before roaches pop. So, do I need a second gateway or a forge or just allocate some probes to it? Is the proxy hatch up your ramp? It kinda sounds like it. I think the last time someone did this to me I fully walled off my ramp, and chrono'd out as many ranged units as possible and immediately placed a forge. I got a cannon up in my mineral line, and used sentry/stalker to bounce back and forth between my ramp and the hatch. Once the hatch was down I took my natural and cannoned the natural (because I knew another allin of roach/ling or bane/ling would come), and used cannon/sentry/stalker + sim city at my natural to allow me to chrono probes really hard to keep ahead. If it's down ramp it can be way more annoying to stop. Last time someone did this I think a GM player named picnic did it to me. I had to get a robo + obs on one base, and I also got +1 weapons on one base and finally got down my ramp. I took the gold (xel'naga caverns), and constantly threatened his natural until I finally dwindled down his army and won. You can also place a forcefield on the eggs and prevent them from hatching, if you want to be cute about it and need to wait for a next warp in cycle to hold. Its helped me in the past.
Does that mean you can go warp prism with sentries and kill like 5 drones in the eggs with maybe 2 forcefields? That would be kind of awesome. Of course they might be cancelled but that's still 5 larvae.
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EPT
