EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 102
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
|
rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On November 08 2011 21:07 Latedi wrote: No. You don't move out at +3 and 5 colossus. That takes so much time it just won't work against anything. The zerg could take like 5 expansions while waiting for you to do anything. Rather move out when you have 1-2 colossus and maybe +1 or maybe even +2 attack. 2 Base -> 2 Colossi + Range + +1Damage or +2Damage I remember as a standard timing, a while ago. Nowadays gameplay got more complex and people move out with a single Zealot; 2; 6; 2 Immortals and few Gateway units, Blinkstalkers with +2; etc;etc;etc | ||
|
Zefa
United States297 Posts
| ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:18 Zefa wrote: You open 1 gate expo vs a gasless ffe terran on a wide natural map like metalopolis. Upon going 3 gate robo, your obs gets to their base and scouts 5 barracks with addons (no factory/ghost tech etc). What is a good response to this info as to not die to the 5 rax stim timing. On a map like shakuras I'm aware you can just use 2 ff to hold but not sure what to do on maps with super wide naturals. Whats a good tech path to choose and what should ur production/unit composition be at the 9-10min mark? Off the top of my head, 5-6 gates and a robo pumping immortals. Teching to colossus might be great, but it does leave a window where he can easily punish you, so i would try to hold off the first weave of units with a gateway/immortal army and then tech to forge/charge, or even take a third if he takes his. This might be completely wrong as i have never been up against a build like that before, but it sounds good on paper | ||
|
Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On November 08 2011 22:02 Sated wrote: An attack with +3 and that many Colossus would come late, but it would be really strong. It's an attack that is the lynch-pin of the 2gate 10-16 style (16 minute attack with +3 Colossus) and since it doesn't do too badly in that particular build I tend to default towards it even when using other styles. It just does so well against Roach-heavy compositions that it seems like a perfect timing to aim for. You're probably right that a good Zerg would macro-up in that time-frame if left alone, but if they're attempting to macro-up then they're probably not gonna be building a tonne of Roach/Ling early on (the situation that the guy I was responding to was talking about: Early Roach/Ling "all-in" styles). Most Zerg won't do this kind of thing (at least not at higher levels), but at lower-levels it is often the case that players go for strong two-base timing attacks because... well, because they're strong against players that aren't prepared! In any case, the point is that committing to a 6gate attack wouldn't be a good idea against heavy Roach/Ling aggression early in the game because you'll get crushed. If the Zerg is committing to that kind of early attack, it is better to sit back and turtle behind cannons for a bit until you can deal with their composition. If they're macro'ing up and they're not committing to an early attack then you obviously don't need to turtle up and wait 16 minutes before moving out... EDIT: I wasn't saying that turtling until +3 and 5 Colossus was a good plan in general play. I was saying that if the opponent goes for heavy Roach/Ling aggression early in the game (i.e. they are not playing a macro game and have massively cut drones) that it is a good idea to turtle up for a bit, get a strong ball of units and then attack. You obviously need to scout to see if the opponent is expanding heavily behind their aggression in order to gauge when you need to move out, but the 16 minute timing is really strong against someone who cuts drones hard early in the game because they don't have enough time to macro up to a ridiculous level before the attack hits and they don't have the units required to deal with +3 Colossus either. Yeah ok I guess that's fine. But even if the zerg is trying to max out on 2 bases with roach ling I think you can take a third pretty fast. That army is just too weak later on when supplies get higher. On November 08 2011 23:06 rEalGuapo wrote: 2 Base -> 2 Colossi + Range + +1Damage or +2Damage I remember as a standard timing, a while ago. Nowadays gameplay got more complex and people move out with a single Zealot; 2; 6; 2 Immortals and few Gateway units, Blinkstalkers with +2; etc;etc;etc I don't even know what all those semi colons mean :p Anyway, everyone is doing their own thing right now and I have no idea if we have a standard for anything. On November 09 2011 00:20 Teoita wrote: Off the top of my head, 5-6 gates and a robo pumping immortals. Teching to colossus might be great, but it does leave a window where he can easily punish you, so i would try to hold off the first weave of units with a gateway/immortal army and then tech to forge/charge, or even take a third if he takes his. This might be completely wrong as i have never been up against a build like that before, but it sounds good on paper I believe you are right about that. I have been up against similar builds and you really need some extra gateways to survive until you have some tech. | ||
|
Drowzee
40 Posts
until now i tried the following which didn't work at all: against proxy 2gate - 2gate myself + probes (how many probes does it take to kill a zealot? feels like 20..) - 1gate forge and cannon defense (the cannon will be canceled every time by attacking zealots) against cannon rush - 1gate forge and denfend my base with cannons (too slow, enemy cannons kill my owns while constructing) - abandon base and go for a other nexus (enemy techs up to 1base colossi and im miles away in tech) anyone help please im protoss promoted to diamond ~1week ago. | ||
|
Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:49 Drowzee wrote: since i have been promoted to dimaond every pvp i've encountert turned out into either a cannon rush or a proxy 2gate. and i lost every one of them. is there a possible built to be safe against both: proxy 2gate and cannon rush? until now i tried the following which didn't work at all: against proxy 2gate - 2gate myself + probes (how many probes does it take to kill a zealot? feels like 20..) - 1gate forge and cannon defense (the cannon will be canceled every time by attacking zealots) against cannon rush - 1gate forge and denfend my base with cannons (too slow, enemy cannons kill my owns while constructing) - abandon base and go for a other nexus (enemy techs up to 1base colossi and im miles away in tech) anyone help please im protoss promoted to diamond ~1week ago. If you see nothing in his base you should scout for proxies around your base asap. If you are unsure get a forge. That's the safest defense imo. You are probably doing it too slowly when you defend though and that's why you are never in time. When do you scout? If you do it on 12/13 it might be a good idea to look for proxies on the way to your opponent's base. If he plays standard you don't really have anything to scout for a while. | ||
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
|
Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:04 Sated wrote: Proxy 2gate is only a pain for me on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple. 2gate strategies have become common again because people have realised that their opponent always spawns on the other side of the map to them on those maps. This means that they can put proxy gateways at the opponent's third or the opponent's gold or somewhere like that and always be within range. So if you check those common areas for proxies on the way to scouting your opponent, you should be safe. On other maps, check the middle of the map or tag a tower on your way to scout, that should reveal a lot of proxy shenanigans. really only those two? I didnt know that lol So on both Metalpolis and sahttered temple its alwways cross position? | ||
|
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:04 Sated wrote: Proxy 2gate is only a pain for me on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple. 2gate strategies have become common again because people have realised that their opponent always spawns on the other side of the map to them on those maps. This means that they can put proxy gateways at the opponent's third or the opponent's gold or somewhere like that and always be within range. So if you check those common areas for proxies on the way to scouting your opponent, you should be safe. On other maps, check the middle of the map or tag a tower on your way to scout, that should reveal a lot of proxy shenanigans. That's precisely why i 9 scout but look around for proxy locations like a madman rather than going to his base straight away: the space between the naturals on shakuras, the center of Antiga, and the golds/thirds and space behind the naturals on shattered and metal. I guess you can also 12 scout, but meh i'd rather not risk losing to cheese. | ||
|
Drowzee
40 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:54 Latedi wrote: If you see nothing in his base you should scout for proxies around your base asap. If you are unsure get a forge. That's the safest defense imo. You are probably doing it too slowly when you defend though and that's why you are never in time. When do you scout? If you do it on 12/13 it might be a good idea to look for proxies on the way to your opponent's base. If he plays standard you don't really have anything to scout for a while. yeah, in pvz i scout after the pylon on 9 to be aware of early pools. in pvt i scout after the gateway on 13. in pvp i try to scout on 12 independend from a structure but that doesn't work out too well and often ends up to be a gateway-13 scout. http://drop.sc/54884 in this replay i scout nothing in his base so im expecting a cannon rush or a proxy 2gate. i don't know how to see which one of that it might be. i throw down a forge pretty instantly and try to construct a cannon as soon as possible. after an analysis by myself a can see following potential result: reacting to not seeing anything with a forge (+) scout probe used to scout own natural (+) but no other proxy spot (-) pulling probes out of gas (+) hadnd't enough minerals for more than 1 cannon (-) chrronoed a warpgate wich wasnt building (-) didn't surround constructing cannons with probes (?) didn't cut probes entirely (?) are there any more ideas how i could have won that game? it only takes 4 minutes so please take a look  | ||
|
DurandaL917
United States92 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:10 Tommylew wrote: really only those two? I didnt know that lol So on both Metalpolis and sahttered temple its alwways cross position? You can not spawn close by ground. that leaves only 2 options at which your opponent spawned. | ||
|
Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:21 DurandaL917 wrote: You can not spawn close by ground. that leaves only 2 options at which your opponent spawned. oh right haha, never knew that, is it only those two maps? dont know how many games ive played and not noticed that or read it anywhere lol so now in theory if you were to proxy gate or 6 pool you have a 50-50 of finding the right base!! | ||
|
Sated
England4983 Posts
| ||
|
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 09 2011 01:25 Tommylew wrote: oh right haha, never knew that, is it only those two maps? dont know how many games ive played and not noticed that or read it anywhere lol so now in theory if you were to proxy gate or 6 pool you have a 50-50 of finding the right base!! Shakuras has no vertical spawns as well, but you should know that  close ground on shattered and meta was disabled in the latest patch. | ||
|
tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On November 09 2011 00:49 Drowzee wrote: since i have been promoted to dimaond every pvp i've encountert turned out into either a cannon rush or a proxy 2gate. and i lost every one of them. is there a possible built to be safe against both: proxy 2gate and cannon rush? until now i tried the following which didn't work at all: against proxy 2gate - 2gate myself + probes (how many probes does it take to kill a zealot? feels like 20..) - 1gate forge and cannon defense (the cannon will be canceled every time by attacking zealots) against cannon rush - 1gate forge and denfend my base with cannons (too slow, enemy cannons kill my owns while constructing) - abandon base and go for a other nexus (enemy techs up to 1base colossi and im miles away in tech) anyone help please im protoss promoted to diamond ~1week ago. it depends how early you scout the 2gate. if you scout it when his gate is already done, you need forge instead of 2nd gate. place a defensive cannon to cover your base (ideally it covers your entire base). if you scout it early throwing down the 2nd gate (as you already do) is a good response. pull probes to turn the battle into your favour, you need good micro. Don't worry about how many probes it takes to kill a zealot, just know that with good micro you will not lose any. In practice you will probably lose a few probes, but just keep practicing. It sounds like your responses are good, you just need to practice your micro. same thing for cannon rush, if you scout it early just send probes to kill the pylon. if he managed to wall it off / already making cannons you need to throw down your own forge immediately. you cannot let a cannon warp in in range of your nexus / mineral line. pull probes to give you the dps dmg if you must, you absolutely cannot let this happen. Never even think about abandoning your base, it's not even an option. If that becomes your only option just leave the game. The best way to practice defending these things is to find a player better than you and you try 2gate/cannonrushing them an see how they defend it. | ||
|
Lega-
Canada141 Posts
| ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 20:58 Latedi wrote: I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now. The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important. Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control. You won't have blink and a decent stalker number after a DT opener for a while, and if zerg wants to commit to killing your third, you won't stop his mass roach and 4-5 overseers with blink stalkers and dt's (you'll lose all your stalkers blinking in to kill the overseers). That said, DT phoenix is an interesting defensive unit composition where you focus on flying in to kill overseers then send the DT's in. | ||
|
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:18 Zefa wrote: You open 1 gate expo vs a gasless ffe terran on a wide natural map like metalopolis. Upon going 3 gate robo, your obs gets to their base and scouts 5 barracks with addons (no factory/ghost tech etc). What is a good response to this info as to not die to the 5 rax stim timing. On a map like shakuras I'm aware you can just use 2 ff to hold but not sure what to do on maps with super wide naturals. Whats a good tech path to choose and what should ur production/unit composition be at the 9-10min mark? It's for this reason that I play a heavy gateway style with double forge and hallucination for scouting on this map: if I see something like this I have enough production facilities to pump out a ton of zealots (possibly chargelots by now) and possibly some archons as well. I know I can't rely on forcefields for defense very easily, so I need to play a style that allows me to fight his army head on, and can't be caught teching really hard. | ||
|
Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 08 2011 23:18 Zefa wrote: You open 1 gate expo vs a gasless ffe terran on a wide natural map like metalopolis. Upon going 3 gate robo, your obs gets to their base and scouts 5 barracks with addons (no factory/ghost tech etc). What is a good response to this info as to not die to the 5 rax stim timing. On a map like shakuras I'm aware you can just use 2 ff to hold but not sure what to do on maps with super wide naturals. Whats a good tech path to choose and what should ur production/unit composition be at the 9-10min mark? Make a heavy stalker composition and be active with them around the map. If they do a stim push with only marines you can kite them all the way back to your base with your stalkers. What your unit comp at 9-10 mins should be depends what your opponent does and what your playstyle is, but personally if I saw a heavy marine army like that I'd probably do a double forge mass upgprade style and grab blink first. | ||
| ||
