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On November 08 2011 07:10 Lafer wrote:
I have a question about my what other gold/plat league players do against zergs...
I rarely win when I do a FFE against a zerg, and I'm wondering what others do when they FFE, if they FFE at all... I can never get a probe back into the zerg base to see if they are going roaches, blings, or just massing lings. If the go fast roach because they see me go Forge first, i auto lose because I just don't have enough out at the time they hit. I've tried pushing out at the 9 minute mark to go do some harrass, and I just get overwhelmed with zerglings on the way out. Even when I got zealot heavy to push out, they just have so many more lings... If i sit back and try to get a big army off of a FFE, they just take the whole map.
Is it even worth it at these low leagues to FFE? Should I just be doing a 3 gate sentry expand? I've tried to go stargate behind it, and they just break it with banelings and lings running into my base. I can't kill the overload in my base fast enough to hide what I'm doing, and if I wait to kill it before doing anything, too much time has already passed.
Sorry it's so long, I'm just totally lost in the matchup.
What you need to do is to scout better I guess. Hiding a probe or maybe even two on the map and then sending them to look for the third or suiciding into the zerg base and scout for any kind of units or tech, hell even drone counts or gas in the natural will do. Low drone counts in the natural and no third means hes gonna attack you pretty soon with roaches or banelings most likely. Fast third means you gotta harass him with stargate etc or take a fast third of your own. If he's turtling with spines at two bases that most likely means he's getting mutas or infestors. These strategies usually use 4 gas geysers so scout for them in the natural when suiciding a probe. Do this around 6 minutes into the game.
After you have ruled put any 2 base strategies you should decide how you want to harass the zerg. Personally I feel like stargate is the strongest but you can also do it with DTs or warp prisms. While doing this harass you should be teching to something else already and take a third asap when you have some units from say 4-6 gates. Ooh and if you go stargate just transition into colossus after a few voidrays and phoenixes. This will be really good if you force them to get hydras. This is pretty much a standard game plan for PvZ after FFE.
If you don't want to FFE 3gate is pretty outdated. It's better to do a 1 or 2gate expand or even some kind of 1gate stargate to harass while expanding. If the zerg is taking a late gas and you feel like you have enough multitasking, try chronoboosting out 2-3 stalkers. You can harass him until speed is done without losing anything. If you need to kill overlords faster I suggest you get a stalker before you tech. Make sure you hide the tech as good as you can, you have to learn which directions the overlords like to fly in from. Then you need to start killing them as soon as they enter your base so you should place spotter pylons and patrol your stalker.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 08 2011 05:01 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 02:20 Teoita wrote:On November 07 2011 22:18 Monasou wrote:On November 03 2011 19:09 mizU wrote:On November 03 2011 19:06 Tommylew wrote:On November 03 2011 18:57 mizU wrote:On November 03 2011 18:53 Tommylew wrote:
Hi what is the best counter to mass marine and banashee style? This could come as eithier an earlier rush or a 200/200 push, seems that when i went phoenix they died so quickly to target from marines and my groudn army got destoryed so quickly vs Banashee.
Did you forget about HT? hmmm yes, I did, problem was that in the early push I couldnt of got HT out or I woudlnthave storm ready, but yeh your proabbly right i had time for the 200/200 push, Cheers. Forget about feedback on the banashees. At least if I meet it again I have an idea what to get!! Mass banshee-marine is VERY difficult to deal with as an early all-in though... Especially when they mix in a raven. I still have trouble with it. Recently I barely won a game even after I made like 5 defensive cannons... I did lose my natural though. But at a certain point you can just counter with pure stalker if you defend. But I still have trouble with it. T.T Raven + banshee + Marine All-ins are so stupid to defend as toss. There isn't anything to save you besides that one floating eye in the sky. I'm not sure how I would defend this, but stalker + cannon would be viable. Completely and utterly wrong. Your cannons do absolutely NOTHING against tanks, as he can just siege them and destroy them before moving in. Congratulations, you now have lost hundreds of minerals that could have been zealots, for nothing. Also you want as few stalkers as possible, because 1) they actually suck in a straight up fight vs both tanks and marines, and 2) sometimes he will pop a raven for pdd. Stalkers are what you warp in as a reinforcement to clean up the remaining banshees, not to fight his first weave of marine/tank. The way to hold off a 111 has been discussed for at length, and everyone agrees that the most reliable way to hold it is to fast expand (nex first or 1gate fe), and then pump immortals and 4-5 gates worth of zealots with as few sentries and stalkers as possible. See this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 He didn't say a 1/1/1, he said a marine/banshee all-in with a raven, like 2 port banshee. In that case, you DO need cannons, although I don't like stalkers against it, I much prefer throwing down a stargate and getting some phoenixes out with a heavy zealot count.
Oh my bad i'm an idiot. Sorry about that.
I still don't think either cannons or stalkers are particularly good; i'd rather get a stargate up but i haven't faced 2port banshee in a loooong time as everyone goes tank/banshee now, so i'm not 100% sure.
Why would you want cannons btw? Can't he just back off and expand while containing you if you waste all those resources on static defense?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 07:45 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:01 Whitewing wrote:On November 08 2011 02:20 Teoita wrote:On November 07 2011 22:18 Monasou wrote:On November 03 2011 19:09 mizU wrote:On November 03 2011 19:06 Tommylew wrote:On November 03 2011 18:57 mizU wrote:On November 03 2011 18:53 Tommylew wrote:
Hi what is the best counter to mass marine and banashee style? This could come as eithier an earlier rush or a 200/200 push, seems that when i went phoenix they died so quickly to target from marines and my groudn army got destoryed so quickly vs Banashee.
Did you forget about HT? hmmm yes, I did, problem was that in the early push I couldnt of got HT out or I woudlnthave storm ready, but yeh your proabbly right i had time for the 200/200 push, Cheers. Forget about feedback on the banashees. At least if I meet it again I have an idea what to get!! Mass banshee-marine is VERY difficult to deal with as an early all-in though... Especially when they mix in a raven. I still have trouble with it. Recently I barely won a game even after I made like 5 defensive cannons... I did lose my natural though. But at a certain point you can just counter with pure stalker if you defend. But I still have trouble with it. T.T Raven + banshee + Marine All-ins are so stupid to defend as toss. There isn't anything to save you besides that one floating eye in the sky. I'm not sure how I would defend this, but stalker + cannon would be viable. Completely and utterly wrong. Your cannons do absolutely NOTHING against tanks, as he can just siege them and destroy them before moving in. Congratulations, you now have lost hundreds of minerals that could have been zealots, for nothing. Also you want as few stalkers as possible, because 1) they actually suck in a straight up fight vs both tanks and marines, and 2) sometimes he will pop a raven for pdd. Stalkers are what you warp in as a reinforcement to clean up the remaining banshees, not to fight his first weave of marine/tank. The way to hold off a 111 has been discussed for at length, and everyone agrees that the most reliable way to hold it is to fast expand (nex first or 1gate fe), and then pump immortals and 4-5 gates worth of zealots with as few sentries and stalkers as possible. See this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 He didn't say a 1/1/1, he said a marine/banshee all-in with a raven, like 2 port banshee. In that case, you DO need cannons, although I don't like stalkers against it, I much prefer throwing down a stargate and getting some phoenixes out with a heavy zealot count. Oh my bad i'm an idiot. Sorry about that. I still don't think either cannons or stalkers are particularly good; i'd rather get a stargate up but i haven't faced 2port banshee in a loooong time as everyone goes tank/banshee now, so i'm not 100% sure. Why would you want cannons btw? Can't he just back off and expand while containing you if you waste all those resources on static defense?
If you open 1 gate expand and he goes for a 2 port banshee play, you're quite ahead on economy so you can easily afford to throw down cannons and still be ahead. Yeah, he can back off, expand and contain, but you're going to be ahead still due to a much faster expo. Stalkers are bad, but you need the cannons to deal with the banshee marine mix, because you simply won't have enough units to hold an attack at the front and deal with a banshee or two killing all your workers in your mineral line. If he makes a raven, any stalkers you have are completely worthless. I personally like to respond with a stargate as soon as I scout it and get a few phoenix out, but the attack can hit before you do, so you've just gotta make a lot of zealots and rely on cannons for your anti-air until the phoenix are out (stalkers get shut down, sentry dps is awful).
Another option is to delay with cannons and try to get some fast high templar out, feedback some banshees and then turn them into archons (don't get storm). That depends on the timing of course, but 2 port banshee builds usually don't get cloak, and if they do, they'll have fewer banshees that you actually have to fight.
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On November 08 2011 07:10 Lafer wrote:
I have a question about my what other gold/plat league players do against zergs...
I rarely win when I do a FFE against a zerg, and I'm wondering what others do when they FFE, if they FFE at all... I can never get a probe back into the zerg base to see if they are going roaches, blings, or just massing lings. If the go fast roach because they see me go Forge first, i auto lose because I just don't have enough out at the time they hit. I've tried pushing out at the 9 minute mark to go do some harrass, and I just get overwhelmed with zerglings on the way out. Even when I got zealot heavy to push out, they just have so many more lings... If i sit back and try to get a big army off of a FFE, they just take the whole map.
Is it even worth it at these low leagues to FFE? Should I just be doing a 3 gate sentry expand? I've tried to go stargate behind it, and they just break it with banelings and lings running into my base. I can't kill the overload in my base fast enough to hide what I'm doing, and if I wait to kill it before doing anything, too much time has already passed.
Sorry it's so long, I'm just totally lost in the matchup.
Hi Lafer, fellow Gold/Plat Protoss here.
I don't do a FFE because I think it too passive, instead preferring to do variations of a 1 - 3 Gate expand. There are a few guides lying around, and Trusty (a Master Protoss) had a few good comments regarding the viability of Gate expands/Zealot pressure on a thread a while back. I'm sorry I can't remember it or find it. I can't say I've had too much success with this style yet, as I sometimes get caught with my early units (which is often an instant "gg") or get too caught up in pressuring and find my Stalker/Immortal army falling to a strong Hydra switch in Roach/Hydra compositions (as I haven't teched to Colossus in time). I sometimes also get too confident and take a third only to find that the Zerg has chosen to 2 base all-in me and I get swarmed to death >_<. Still, it's a lot more interesting, IMO, than sitting on a FFE and pushing out with 2 base Colossus.
If you do choose to stick with FFE, look up Noumena's WP based FFE thread. It's very APM and multi-task intensive (which is why I don't do it - yet) but it's a very cool (and IMO very Protoss) way of playing the match-up. GL!
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On November 08 2011 08:20 Whitewing wrote:
I personally like to respond with a stargate as soon as I scout it and get a few phoenix out, but the attack can hit before you do, so you've just gotta make a lot of zealots and rely on cannons for your anti-air until the phoenix are out (stalkers get shut down, sentry dps is awful).
So, I've tried this too, In fact it was my go-to responce so Techlab Starport play for a long time, but honestly, I was appalled at how poorly Phoenix work vs this composition. And take it from me, I use Phoenix in about 50% of all my games, I did every trick in the book. Marines just kill them so fast, and banshees will just flat-out outrun your observer in open ground so cloak will protect them even if you catch them away from the marines.
But that's just my personal experience with Phoenix. Maybe someone better can tell you how to do it, but I just stick with Zealot Stalker Sentry Collosus.
On November 08 2011 08:20 Whitewing wrote:
... get some fast high templar out, feedback some banshees and then turn them into archons (don't get storm)...
I disagree completely. The ONE thing they will not have any time soon with double Starport is Ghosts (god willing) meaning Templar are so much stronger than Archons. And while the banshees are annoying, THE MARINES ARE STILL THE ONES DOING MORE DAMAGE BY FAR. Kill the damned marines! Kill them now! And to do that you need storm. If you do feedback and archons, I think you will find yourself fighting No Energy-Half Health banshees, while your Archons are killed in secconds by marines that evaporate your entire army.
On November 08 2011 08:20 Whitewing wrote:
but 2 port banshee builds usually don't get cloak, and if they do, they'll have fewer banshees that you actually have to fight.
This is just misinformation. 2 port banshee with cloak is much more dangerous than without, and it cost them 2 banshees, which is negligible when compared to how many they have, and well worth the upgrade.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 09:56 Dredrick wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 08:20 Whitewing wrote:
I personally like to respond with a stargate as soon as I scout it and get a few phoenix out, but the attack can hit before you do, so you've just gotta make a lot of zealots and rely on cannons for your anti-air until the phoenix are out (stalkers get shut down, sentry dps is awful).
So, I've tried this too, In fact it was my go-to responce so Techlab Starport play for a long time, but honestly, I was appalled at how poorly Phoenix work vs this composition. And take it from me, I use Phoenix in about 50% of all my games, I did every trick in the book. Marines just kill them so fast, and banshees will just flat-out outrun your observer in open ground so cloak will protect them even if you catch them away from the marines. But that's just my personal experience with Phoenix. Maybe someone better can tell you how to do it, but I just stick with Zealot Stalker Sentry Collosus. Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 08:20 Whitewing wrote:
... get some fast high templar out, feedback some banshees and then turn them into archons (don't get storm)... I disagree completely. The ONE thing they will not have any time soon with double Starport is Ghosts (god willing) meaning Templar are so much stronger than Archons. And while the banshees are annoying, THE MARINES ARE STILL THE ONES DOING MORE DAMAGE BY FAR. Kill the damned marines! Kill them now! And to do that you need storm. If you do feedback and archons, I think you will find yourself fighting No Energy-Half Health banshees, while your Archons are killed in secconds by marines that evaporate your entire army. Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 08:20 Whitewing wrote:
but 2 port banshee builds usually don't get cloak, and if they do, they'll have fewer banshees that you actually have to fight. This is just misinformation. 2 port banshee with cloak is much more dangerous than without, and it cost them 2 banshees, which is negligible when compared to how many they have, and well worth the upgrade.
I'm not certain how your phoenix control is or how you do it, but the trick with phoenix is to use them before the fight starts by doing things like running into his base and picking off banshees as they come out, and harassing the workers. If they're not out on time, they still kill banshees really fast, and if banshees run away you're in good shape still: he's running and not killing you (you have superior eco). I said don't get storm because you won't have it in time for an all-in usually, and you can't really afford it.
Most variations of 2 port banshee all-ins I've faced don't get cloak, but I'm sure there are some. That said, I don't feel like cloak helps the all-in that much, it's not hard to have detection and keep it alive if you control properly. Also, if you attack with your zealots and phoenix at the same time, his marines will be too busy either dying or running from zealots to kill your phoenix if you do it right (especially if you can get charge out). It's really going to come down to the timing of the all-in, but unless it hits a fair bit sooner than a 1/1/1 banshee/tank all-in, it's more than possible to have an expansion, phoenix, and chargelots out for the push.
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On November 08 2011 07:10 Lafer wrote:
I have a question about my what other gold/plat league players do against zergs...
I rarely win when I do a FFE against a zerg, and I'm wondering what others do when they FFE, if they FFE at all... I can never get a probe back into the zerg base to see if they are going roaches, blings, or just massing lings. If the go fast roach because they see me go Forge first, i auto lose because I just don't have enough out at the time they hit. I've tried pushing out at the 9 minute mark to go do some harrass, and I just get overwhelmed with zerglings on the way out. Even when I got zealot heavy to push out, they just have so many more lings... If i sit back and try to get a big army off of a FFE, they just take the whole map.
Is it even worth it at these low leagues to FFE? Should I just be doing a 3 gate sentry expand? I've tried to go stargate behind it, and they just break it with banelings and lings running into my base. I can't kill the overload in my base fast enough to hide what I'm doing, and if I wait to kill it before doing anything, too much time has already passed.
Sorry it's so long, I'm just totally lost in the matchup.
Edit: Im also in gold.
As far as knowing if they're roach busting or expanding I always always plant a pylon at the natural to block expo. If he ignores it you need more cannons. If he takes it out you may be able to get a probe in to check the gas count while his 4-6 lings are busy with the pylon. I just had an ffe game where he did that cute lair tech drop creep and spine crawler thing ouside my base and got hydras. I was able to sack a few stalkers and lure his lings to my 5 cannons till I got 6 gate and just warped in outside my base and around his spines directly to his main. Anyway... the point is build a pylon out there for scouting. Keep a probe out there on the path to your base. If they don't expand and fail the attack you win. If they do expand quickly like on 14 I like to 1 gate expand into DT 5 gate robo. Sometimes they don't go lair if they see you fast expand snd you can avoid spores. It's a nice way to buy some time for chargelot archon. I don't know. I just fast expand everygame no matter what so I can practice.
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Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days?
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PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult?
If you 3 gate expand, you are behind economically compared to the zerg, so it is 100% essential to do the push, unless you are absolutely certain that he's been making a lot of units instead of drones. You do not actually have to commit to an attack though, it is completely acceptable (and encouraged if it looks like he's not breakable, which will be the case most of the time) to go up near his base, make it look like you're going to attack, and then just go home, using forcefields to keep it alive if he commits to attacking you. That counts as economic damage, even though you didn't kill anything, because he's been forced to make a lot of units instead of drones.
If you lose all your sentries though, you're basically dead unless you do a ton of damage, so be very careful not to lose them.
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http://drop.sc/54769
http://drop.sc/54768
http://drop.sc/54767
Here are three replays of basic gateway PvZ openings.
In the metal and antiga games I 3gate expand. On antiga he takes a fast third and you can see how the push punishes him with a few units.
On metal, notice the hallucinate scout. I see roaches and do not push but instead return home knowing that he's produced enough units that my push has paid for itself.
In the game on Nerazim I scout his hatch first and put on light zealot/stalker pressure and one gate expand into 3gates.
The games are against fairly high masters players on NA.
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What do you guys hate the most of Terrans when going 1Base all in?
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How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use?
DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
This post may contain ppsl spoilers.
I just watched MC vs sen. Sen went for a high number of attacking units in game one then transitioned into mutas, then into bl infest, and in game 2 went for a big roach ling agression.
I have many problems dealing against those kind of pushes which give me a nightmare to try to defend my 3rd and MC seemed to have the same problems as me, being overwhelmed even with a good use of force fields.
So I wanted to know, what do you guys think is the best way to counter this?
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Thanks for the info, guys!
@SAted, I will try that push with the 6 +1 zealots, hopefully that will help. I will admit, I'm not too sure it will work at this level, unless someone can tell me otherwise?
When I look at my replays, almost all the zergs I play make a ton of lings and/or roaches at the start of the game, after the second base, but before the third. If I push out to try to make something happen, I get caught in the open and overwhelmed by the numbers. If I wait and try to take a third, they force a cancel with their superior numbers, and I just get even more behind.
Would just sitting on two bases and turtling be good...? I mean, I could do that, but it's just not fun to play that way... And at the gold level, not everyone follows "the rules" you see at high levels of play... But sometimes, that's the only answer, right?
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On November 08 2011 12:43 K3Nyy wrote:
Just wondering, but what does higher level (preferably high masters/grandmasters) Protoss players do vs Zerg these days?
I usually forge FE or 1gate FE. You need to somehow pressure the zerg so I almost always get DTs, air or a quick third. I think forge FE is used by almost everyone now.
On November 08 2011 13:05 Channel Pressure wrote:
PvZ, your first push during 3 gate expo. . How important is it that you do damage? And is it fatal if you skip the push? Is it possible to just turtle as toss doing 3gate expo? And if you attack and lose just about everything or everything . . Is recovery possible, even if difficult?
The build was made to put pressure on. If you don't like it you better forge FE or 1gate FE. You don't have to do direct damage but poking at the zergs front usually forces some lings, say 10. That's 5 drone kills right there and you have indirectly caused damage to the zerg which is enough. Don't forget to push again a while later with more units to do the same thing over again. Scout with hallucination to make sure it's safe. If you lose everything you are very far behind but it's not impossible to recover. It's just that you made 5+ sentries and that's a lot of gas you lost for nothing, unless you actually kill something important.
On November 08 2011 19:00 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:04 flipstorm wrote:
How viable are DT openers in all 3 matchups at higher level play? Although I'm only platinum, I've started using DTs a lot more (I basically used to never use them except late game to harass) but I've been finding them a lot more effective lately. Against Terran if I can get a pylon near their mineral line (like on metalopolis there is so many good spot to plant a proxy pylon) I will go DTs after a 1 gate FE and then transition into chargelot archon with upgrades and take my third. I can usually kill a lot of scvs (at least 10) with just 4 dts and force scans and turrets.
Against zerg I'll go DTs and then follow it up with blink and a +2 attack push. This usually works well although some zergs will just put down spores anyway to be safe. Sometimes you can snipe a 3rd and get a decent amount of drone kills too. I often proxy the DT shrine somewhere as it can be hard to deny zerg scouting. Late game DTs and warp prism can easily snipe unprotected bases. 7-8 DTs will kill a hatch in seconds.
Against Protoss I use them less, but sometimes after a gas steal I will also go for them. On Tal'Darim I like to offensive 4 gate with 2 gas and DT rush. I usually just poke around their base and just try to keep them in their base as long as possible. If they attack I just turtle and get mostly zealots as this will force them to micro more and give you more time to get your dark shrine up.
Is this kind of play viable or should I just expect higher league players to always have detection ready and scout better? At the very least I think its good to have these builds in my arsenal. And anyone have any additional DT builds that are good to use? DT openers are nearly cheese: if they are scouted or prepared for, you instantly lose the game. You can use them in PvT for map control until terran builds a raven or saves up a ton of scans, but it's really gimmicky as an opener. I like them in the mid-late game for harass, then turn them into archons.
Not really. I open DTs after forge FE against zerg a lot. Even if I don't do much damage I can use blink to snipe overseers and take a decently fast third. Also they give you nice map control. As you said they work in PvT too for the map control.
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On November 08 2011 20:23 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 20:11 Lafer wrote:
Thanks for the info, guys!
@SAted, I will try that push with the 6 +1 zealots, hopefully that will help. I will admit, I'm not too sure it will work at this level, unless someone can tell me otherwise?
When I look at my replays, almost all the zergs I play make a ton of lings and/or roaches at the start of the game, after the second base, but before the third. If I push out to try to make something happen, I get caught in the open and overwhelmed by the numbers. If I wait and try to take a third, they force a cancel with their superior numbers, and I just get even more behind.
Would just sitting on two bases and turtling be good...? I mean, I could do that, but it's just not fun to play that way... And at the gold level, not everyone follows "the rules" you see at high levels of play... But sometimes, that's the only answer, right? If they don't take an early third and are being aggressive with Zergling/Roach then make more cannons at the front and turtle. I'd probably try and get a Twilight Council for Blink and a Robo for Colossus. Build lots of Stalkers and a handful of Sentries whilst chrono'ing out +3 attack and extended thermal lance. Push out when +3 attack is done with ~5 Colossus. Take your third base as you attack. I think that if they've cut that many drones early (to make Zerglings and Roaches) without doing any significant damage then you should be able to roll over them with this attack because they won't be able to remax efficiently enough to kill your Colossus/Stalker army. Just make sure you get enough Sentries to forcefield the Roaches away from your Colossus and you should be good. If they don't take an early third and have lots of Spine Crawlers and Zerglings then they might be going for Mutalisks, so get lots (7 or 8 Gateways) of Blink Stalkers and turtle up until you feel comfortable taking your third. Upgrades are really important against Mutalisks because each defensive upgrade effectively reduces damage 3 times against a Mutalisk's bouncing attack. Against Ling/Muta you eventually need to tech towards Templar with storm. Unfortunately, I always get crushed against this composition because my micro is terrible and it requires a lot of multi-tasking to defend against the Mutalisks, so I can't really help you more than to tell you what you should be doing... 'cause I can't do what I know I should be doing either! To be honest, when I was in Gold I usually did a 3gate DT expand against Zerg and I got a lot of wins just from the initial damage the DTs dealt. Problem is, this doesn't work so well once you get promoted to higher leagues because people start build Spore Crawlers the moment they sense anything fishy, so it is better for you to try and learn a more solid style. If you learn when the opponent is going to be aggressive and when you might need more cannons then you should be good against Zergs who opt for heavy Roach/Zergling aggression, because an aggressive Zerg that doesn't do much damage is going to be behind due to the number of Drones they have to cut to attack you early. EDIT: You can still do the 6gate +1 Zealot push even if they are only on two-bases, just make sure you check how many units they have before sending you Zealots in. You'd be surprised how many Lings 6 +1 Zealots can kill if they don't get surrounded, especially if there aren't any Spine Crawlers. Don't forget that if they only have Spine Crawlers and Lings, you Zealots can run past the Spine Crawlers and into the main base to deal damage. The only time you need to pull-back is if they're making a lot of Roaches, in which case you should turtle up and get out Colossus/Blink Stalkers before pushing out for a third.
No. You don't move out at +3 and 5 colossus. That takes so much time it just won't work against anything. The zerg could take like 5 expansions while waiting for you to do anything. Rather move out when you have 1-2 colossus and maybe +1 or maybe even +2 attack.
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EPT
