EPT[D] 'New' PvZ Phoenix-heavy style - Page 2
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Keilah
731 Posts
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HinagikUx
United States178 Posts
Because you have double stargate, I havent tried it yet, but i think carriers would be a good transition as well (besides the obvious immortal archon). High range and huge dps, throw a couple into your already solid army. I have been trying to stray away from using collosus at ALL in any matchup, because i find that they are so immobile, hard to replenish, and you rely on them too much off 2base. Because infestors own stalker/collo mixes, we gotta start using immortal HT archon and POSSIBLY carrier mixes :p. They are not a bad unit! They can deal with low numbers of corruptors and can kill broodlords, UNLIKE collo. Only problem i see is neural parasite. | ||
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ETisME
12521 Posts
I have tried infestor ling but definitely is not the solution because it takes so much fungal to kill off the phoenix (which can come before your infestor energy build up for enough chain) I did a huge mass muta+ corruptor change while pumping lings and queens and some spores corruptor and muta can deal with mass phoenix extremely well. because of his huge investment in stargates unit, he won't have blink stalkers or ht. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On August 04 2011 13:24 HinagikUx wrote: high masters ptoss here. Ive been experimenting with double stargate phoenix for awhile now, and find it way better vs hydras than collo, especially after opening with stargate after expo to harass the 3rd. Only weakness I found was versus infestors, or fast corruptors. Phoenix in high numbers decimate hydras in a army vs army fight because it seems like when you A-Move hydras, the AI prioritizes your zealots over phoenix. I feel like this is much better than going for robo facility -> robo bay after stargate, b/c you will only have 1-2 collo and barely get range when the roach hydra timing hits, which you usually take crazy damage from. Because you have double stargate, I havent tried it yet, but i think carriers would be a good transition as well (besides the obvious immortal archon). High range and huge dps, throw a couple into your already solid army. I have been trying to stray away from using collosus at ALL in any matchup, because i find that they are so immobile, hard to replenish, and you rely on them too much off 2base. Because infestors own stalker/collo mixes, we gotta start using immortal HT archon and POSSIBLY carrier mixes :p. They are not a bad unit! They can deal with low numbers of corruptors and can kill broodlords, UNLIKE collo. Only problem i see is neural parasite. Mass phoenix would be fun to deal with hydra roach, but like you said they can just get infestor + zergling and A move you. Rushing collossus seems to be the safest thing you could do. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
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brandog712
United States13 Posts
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I cant figure out how to get zealot + phoenix to beat mass hydra, and i get demolished when infestor are thrown in. I won't be adding a replay, too many mistakes/too new to the strat---just seeking some general tips. I think I might just be attacking too late or something, but i feel like my zealots get shredded before they can do any damage, and I cant lift that many hydras off the ground. I'll practice with it some more tonight, as it seems doing this strat forces hydra. And if they get hydra and I did a FFE, i can quickly switch to colossus and clean that up pretty easy. FYI for people trying this--- get obs out ASAP. I tried to get them fairly late(relying on cannons instead) one game and got demolished by burrowed infestors spewing infested terran at me O_o. You can really dictate the pace of the game with this strat though, its fun. I was vsing a masters zerg and I pumped zealots off 6 gates and mass phoenix up to a point, and just randomly threw zealots at his expos from time to time and picking stuff off while i massed up carriers. I got destroyed by hydras---carriers are damn terrible, but I was able to get to them incredibly easy and early by having complete control over the game. | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
I have all the gsl passes and shit so that isn't a problem I just havent had time to watch any yet. What team is sage on NShoseo? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On August 05 2011 02:10 brandog712 wrote: Im top diamond(not that that matters, season just started), and I was trying to use this strat in custom games last night vs diamond/masters, and I could not get phoenix to work vs hydra or infestor. Its the most fun strat to play so far, but goddam i suck with it, but i gonna keep trying for the fun factor. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I cant figure out how to get zealot + phoenix to beat mass hydra, and i get demolished when infestor are thrown in. I won't be adding a replay, too many mistakes/too new to the strat---just seeking some general tips. I think I might just be attacking too late or something, but i feel like my zealots get shredded before they can do any damage, and I cant lift that many hydras off the ground. I'll practice with it some more tonight, as it seems doing this strat forces hydra. And if they get hydra and I did a FFE, i can quickly switch to colossus and clean that up pretty easy. FYI for people trying this--- get obs out ASAP. I tried to get them fairly late(relying on cannons instead) one game and got demolished by burrowed infestors spewing infested terran at me O_o. You can really dictate the pace of the game with this strat though, its fun. I was vsing a masters zerg and I pumped zealots off 6 gates and mass phoenix up to a point, and just randomly threw zealots at his expos from time to time and picking stuff off while i massed up carriers. I got destroyed by hydras---carriers are damn terrible, but I was able to get to them incredibly easy and early by having complete control over the game. I prefer templar for storm + feedback and Archons for my AoE over collosi, plus if they go corruptors to take out your phoenixs, those will clean your collosi up anyway I was trying it last night, was so much fun and I like the ability to control the map, passivity is my biggest weakness so I was trying out a build in which I could be CONFIDENT to be aggressive with. The one thing I dislike about the build is that you can't rely make any hay out of DT harass on the expands as your early phoenixes pretty much force a ton of spores I managed to wipe out 10 infestors in one engagement with graviton and feedback spam but there are a lot of timings and stuff I think need to be set in stone to really adopt this as a standard build It's also pretty map dependent, something like Tal'Darim size, the speed of the phoenixes and the ability to pretty safely go FFE seem pretty integral to trying this build. | ||
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brandog712
United States13 Posts
I think a big early timing attack needs to happen to do some serious damage. Some point where he doesnt have enough hydra to murder the zealots before they can be graviton raped. I've been going +1 attack first on zealots, but i think armor might be better vs hydra. Gonna keep messing around til something works. I havent won a match yet with this build vs anyone decent, but i feel like all of the games are competitive, so i wont give up on the strat yet. | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
But its not the phoenix that impresses me the most with this style, its the follows ups you have avaliable. A while back Ace and Squirtle were using a mass phoenix/chargelot build and it never really caught on until now, You may use abuse your opponents response if he overcommits on Hydra and simply set up a timing to kill him or use it as a harassment option and have pylons all over the map and use the phoenix to warp Zealots onto high ground and help harass. (You can also use DTs) During all of this you may either be taking your 3rd and/or simply teching up to Archons or Colossi (Archons more preferabley as you can easily transition into a Archon/Voidray/HT army which is very powerful late game coupled with Immortals) The best examples I can find of this are Sages GSTL game YongHwa Replay Ace vs Idra a while back in IEM (The one in which he took 1rst place) Bischu (I believe he used to do this alot back in the earlier days of Starcraft) | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On August 04 2011 12:36 Ohmboy wrote: This is exactly what I was about to post... Edit: So, you're saying almost the exact same thing as Gooey? >.< ROFL. I didn't mean to quote him, I meant to quote the OP. Idk how I ended up quoting him.... smfh. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
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HinagikUx
United States178 Posts
On August 04 2011 22:05 Xahhk wrote: Mass phoenix would be fun to deal with hydra roach, but like you said they can just get infestor + zergling and A move you. Rushing collossus seems to be the safest thing you could do. Yep, but if i see that comp i usually transition into mass chargelots and archons with chronoboost on pure atk upgrades, which destroys that comp. Save some HT's for feedback if u have obs out too. I usually just make phoenixes till i see infestors out, because they are the only mobile unit that tosss has and we gotta lear to use it better in all matchups imo | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 05 2011 07:05 Ubertron wrote: If you're sporing up you're not droning as hard as you can, if you're keeping your overlords in base you're ceding map control to the Protoss player which can be exploited what, i dont follow you. you have 2 options as a zerg make more hydras then he has phoenix which can then be exploited by collosi. queens against phoenix in numbers are not good. plus you have to run the hydras after the faster phoenix. its a mess. if the toss is decent he can pick off hydras as they spawn too, leading to never having enough to actually kill all the phoenix. or you can make spores and not worry about it anymore. i can immediately replace any drones that made spores in one larva cycle, plus this response costs no gas whatsoever. phoenix cant kill creep tumors, that plus ling scouts is enough to know what is going on at least until corrupters. i have never lost a game where im like damn those spores really cost me any chance to win. you're not going to come kill me with phoenix, your ground army will be significantly weaker then mine. droning as hard as i can?? phoenix to me (diamond zerg) is the surest sign in the entire game that i'm safe to drone as hard as i can. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
Fast infestors are the counter as far, or specific timing pushes, turtling behind spores in your base will do nothing but hand the initiative to the Protoss player | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 05 2011 15:51 Ubertron wrote: Making spores in your base will stop me killing workers, it does nothing to regain the map control and mobility which is the whole strength of the build, plus the later transitioning into archons with attack upgrades and phoenixes with attack upgrades will annihilate hydra/roach balls + pure hydra balls + pretty much any composition that you can pull out of the hat. Fast infestors are the counter as far, or specific timing pushes, turtling behind spores in your base will do nothing but hand the initiative to the Protoss player i was just watching blade5555's stream (he is GM on NA and masters korea and posts around here a bit) and he said pretty much exactly what i said in my post. and as soon as he saw phoenix in the game he was playing he put 2-3 spores down in his bases and made drones. the whole point of spores is so that you dont have to make hydras. who are you playing that goes pure hydra anyway? as for infestors a good toss will pick them off one by one or simply spread his phoenix out to make fungal useless. corrupters are the one zerg unit that can straight up kill phoenix head on, no relying on your opponent to be bad or luck. | ||
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Firesilver
United Kingdom1190 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
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