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On August 04 2011 06:18 Gooey wrote:
Uhh, Kiwi tried 6 gating, but his pylon and probe got shut down, so he panic'd and made 2 stargates and hid phoenixes until he had about 10, and strifecro wasn't prepared for them at all and had no idea they were coming. Suddenly there was a cloud of 20 phoenixes flying around, and strife was in panic mode trying to mass hydra and get to infestors, since all he had were roaches to deal with a 6 gate. By that time, Kiwi was able to get up his 3rd and 4th and switched to making only chargelot/archon/immortal. It wasn't really a style, so much as kiwi rolling the dice to try and get back into the game, and it worked.
The commentator said that is a build he had been working on. You are saying he just tried something weird and got lucky but I think it is far the opposite.
Obviously he wanted to 6gate, but I don't think that double stargate play or anything that followed was random chance imo.
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On August 04 2011 06:18 Gooey wrote:
Uhh, Kiwi tried 6 gating, but his pylon and probe got shut down, so he panic'd and made 2 stargates and hid phoenixes until he had about 10, and strifecro wasn't prepared for them at all and had no idea they were coming. Suddenly there was a cloud of 20 phoenixes flying around, and strife was in panic mode trying to mass hydra and get to infestors, since all he had were roaches to deal with a 6 gate. By that time, Kiwi was able to get up his 3rd and 4th and switched to making only chargelot/archon/immortal. It wasn't really a style, so much as kiwi rolling the dice to try and get back into the game, and it worked.
Hahahaha, you really think that a player who plays +8 hours a day get panic'd ?!? I lol'ed at you my friend.
I just watched the game. For those who said that kiwi was behind, he never got behind, never ever in the whole game. The Z with 1 more base up is totally normal, but once the phoenixes kicked in, there was almost over, kiwi got even in bases, even in eco, better in army, no infestors for the Z (til the very end), game over.
For any who tries the build: It is heavy skill intensive. I'm a macro mid masters P, and prolly get crushed if i use this build, u need to have high multi task level, and very good game vision/transitions (this build prolly get raped aganist fast infestors). However, practice with this build could make us improve a lot, due to his skill demands.
Overall, another amazing fun build from kiwi.
Edit.: Another thing to consider is the fact that almost 75% of high masters and above Z's are using infestor ling, so this strat could be blindly repelled.
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I don't believe this was a "panic" build by Kiwikaki, as I saw him trying out the style in practice games vs Sen a couple of weeks ago on Sen's stream. It's a pretty sick build tbh, but I think roach + spore + infestor is the way to go against it.
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I've been doing a 2-gate forge expand into heavy phoenix/chargelot with shield upgrades and transition into archon, it's been doing very well. (im masters)
I build my first pylon below the ramp. What's important is that all of my buildings contribute to my wall. I only build three zealots- which are enough to beat zerglings out of the way long enough to throw up two cannons at zerg natural, which will require quite a few roaches to take out. I then stop probe production, throw up a nexus and several cannons at my own wall, and then continue probing.
I will use one or two of the zealots to scout what zerg's reaction is to this- they are beefy and will definitely get to see the base before they die, and I pull one back to patrol my base for nydus worms.
I then build two stargates and make two voidrays to contain zerg/ stop drops ; after that I get saturated, cut probes again, pump phoenixes/shield upgrades/chargelots and go all out.
It's been working very well. The only logical response is for them to get hydras because enough corruptors to deal with 8-10 phoenix and 2 void rays means they cant deal with the 20-25 charge zealots with + 3 shield.
Final step is take third base and transition to archons. For which you already ahve the +3 shield upgrade that was necessary in the first place to cover both zealots and phoenixes.
Honestly it's a beautiful build and it fucks infestors over hard.
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On August 09 2011 14:48 Borkbokbork wrote:
I've been doing a 2-gate forge expand into heavy phoenix/chargelot with shield upgrades and transition into archon, it's been doing very well. (im masters)
I build my first pylon below the ramp. What's important is that all of my buildings contribute to my wall. I only build three zealots- which are enough to beat zerglings out of the way long enough to throw up two cannons at zerg natural, which will require quite a few roaches to take out. I then stop probe production, throw up a nexus and several cannons at my own wall, and then continue probing.
I will use one or two of the zealots to scout what zerg's reaction is to this- they are beefy and will definitely get to see the base before they die, and I pull one back to patrol my base for nydus worms.
I then build two stargates and make two voidrays to contain zerg/ stop drops ; after that I get saturated, cut probes again, pump phoenixes/shield upgrades/chargelots and go all out.
It's been working very well. The only logical response is for them to get hydras because enough corruptors to deal with 8-10 phoenix and 2 void rays means they cant deal with the 20-25 charge zealots with + 3 shield.
Final step is take third base and transition to archons. For which you already ahve the +3 shield upgrade that was necessary in the first place to cover both zealots and phoenixes.
Honestly it's a beautiful build and it fucks infestors over hard.
Looks interesting. Do you consistently do well with this? Got any replays?
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[/QUOTE]
Looks interesting. Do you consistently do well with this? Got any replays?
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I have been consistently doing well with it, yes. I don't have replays because I'm still working out the kinks in the build. But if you want to talk about it in-game, add me, I don't know character code but you can use my email "jeffk@dobsis.org" to add me.
Anyway, the 2 gate pressure is absolutely necessary, it slows him down enough to mean that he cant just roll me with roach/hydra when all i have is phoenixes.
I just played a game where the opponet's mid-game push (15 or so hydras, 15 or so roaches) was crushed by my 10 phoenix 20 chargelot/ 2 void rays.
When he lost the battle he said "...wow" and quit.
What makes this build so great is that hydras do not counter phoenixes, not when you make so many.
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On August 04 2011 05:43 Peterblue wrote:
EDIT: And my counter would be mass roach. Neither sentries, nor zealot nor pheonix are good against them. Or HTs. Or even archons.
Of course, roaches are the counter to everything. All it takes is a simple 5 s RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR + A click from skill-less zergs to crush a toss deathball. Seriously the roach is too op atm. Either it needs to cost more, or have a bit less HP, or do a bit less dmg.
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I've been experimenting with more phoenix-heavy play out of a FFE opening more lately as zergs are getting better are denying void ray harass and 6-gates. On maps where the 3rd is easily defended I've opted to go phoenix instead of void ray and make void rays more for defense than aggression. I also feel transitioning into a heavy gateway based army rather than trying to go for colossi for hydras is more effective unless you can deny the 3rd since going 2-base zealot/VR/Colossi vs 2-base zerg is gg.
Also generally speaking if infestorling is your issue 6/7-gate zealot/archon timing push will destroy them. Zerg is pretty much forced to get roaches and/or hydras to stop 6-gate.
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